Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:20 Hello, friends. And welcome back to unpayed Christianity, where we are reconciling human experiences with God and his words. So we love from a pure heart, a good conscience and sincere faith. I'm excited to have a new friend on the podcast today. That's a friend I've gotten to know over the last couple of years, since I think maybe the fall of 2020 fall or summer of 2020, gotten to know him through Facebook. He is his name is Seth Richie. Uh, you'll get to know him here in a little bit, but the, the thing that has stood out to me in the two years that we've interacted on Facebook is that we've dialogue about some controversial stuff. And he doesn't always agree with me, but he models the kind of interacting that I want to exhibit, where, where I seek to understand the person I'm talking with.
Speaker 1 00:01:13 I don't personally attack them. He's challenged me sometimes in the common threads or offered a different perspective or, or sometimes he'll see people attacking others and he'll come to their defense, even if, even if he doesn't necessarily agree with that person's viewpoint. He just is uncomfortable with how the dialogue is going or whatever. When I started thinking about doing the podcast again and here in 2020, I thought we need to have conversations about, uh, either discussing how to have healthy disagreement or even just modeling on the podcast. I, I have a couple discussions I would love to get, I haven't finalized 'em yet, but where two people disagree about something, but we're talking about it on the podcast where we can model, uh, friendly grace filled loving disagreement among Christians and Seth's name was one of the first ones that came to mind. So I reached out to him and we've been dialoging.
Speaker 1 00:02:12 It's been, uh, a couple months now in the works. Uh, we actually recorded this a couple weeks ago. And so I'm excited about the conversation. It's really good. The, the full conversation is about an hour and 40 minutes, and I shortened it up for you guys here. And those who are members get a little more in depth version of specifically, I ask him, what is his philosophy about knowing which conversations to enter and which ones to just stay out. And he, he has a, a, a wealth of just wisdom that he shares <laugh> that is good for any of us to listen to. So if, if you like the deeper dive or any, uh, any of our expanded podcast episodes, or deep dive essays that we release monthly for our members go to whitmer.com/member, and you will learn how you can sign up for the expanded version of the podcast episodes. Now, for my conversation with Seth Richie,
Speaker 1 00:03:29 All right. It is good to have on the podcast today, Seth Richie, I guess, uh, I assume that's how you pronounce your name, is that right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah, Seth's Richie. It's good to be here. Welcome to, uh, I Christianity, this is the fir for everybody listening. This is the first time we have met outside of Facebook, Facebook messenger, or Facebook, uh, comments and interactions. I sort of know, um, your in-laws a little bit I've met. Okay. I've met them, uh, when they were over in Thailand, but I've never met you and okay. We, uh, we've interacted on, on Facebook and, and, uh, basically just to give a short little intro, and then I'd like, uh, to get to know Seth better along with everybody else listening. Um, Seth and I have I'm, it'd be interesting to know how we started interacting on Facebook, but we've had a lot of dialogue on Facebook over a lot. Yeah. If you stretch out over the last couple of years, couple years. Yeah. Yeah. There's been different times where we, uh, interact on Facebook and, and we have in our interactions. And just for the record, we, I, I do edit these. So if, if there's stuff that later on, you're like, let's take that out. We'll just edit it out.
Speaker 1 00:04:57 Um, in our interactions, as we dialogue about things, I I've really appreciated the way Seth has disagreed, whether with me or other people in the threads, um, just, it it's always felt respectful. I've always felt, uh, respect from him. And I feel like he offer offers substantive, uh, contribution to the conversation. And over the last couple years, I think all of us have noticed that online and Facebook, it's hard to have conversation where people are disagreeing without it just becoming really polarizing and kind of antagonizing and, and almost a sort of thing. There's been people who talk about how they, they wanna follow my, my stuff, but they unfollowed me because of how the comment threads were going. It was just so, so, uh, difficult to read through. And that made me kind of sad because it was people who I would like <laugh> I would like them to be commenting more.
Speaker 1 00:06:05 Um, not, not because they agreed with me necessarily, but because they, they have good things to offer. And so I just, last year, when I thought about starting the podcast back up again, I was thinking I should do a episode sometime dialoging with someone who doesn't always agree with me, but someone who models good, healthy, robust conversation. And Seth's name was one, one of the first ones that came to my mind. And so we've been messaging back and forth for a few weeks here now about doing this episode. And, and I'm glad that he's joined me on here today. Why don't, I, I literally know very, other than that, you're, you're married to Heather used to be brown. Um, I don't really know much about you, so just, yeah. Tell us about yourself, your family, what you do, where you're from.
Speaker 2 00:07:00 Sure. So I, I live and have always lived in, uh, Western, Michigan, um, west coast of Michigan, we call it, um, and, um, I grew up in a family that until I was 11, was not in a Baptist at all. We were, um, I guess you'd say in the holiness branch of churches, we went to a missionary church. Um, and, um, my parents went through a theological shift at that point when I was 11. I, I have one sister, um, that is a couple years older than me. And my philosophy was always to very much include us in their thinking processes and things like that. So when they shifted theology, we shifted theology and was kind building, um, my faith as well. So that was, that shapes a lot of who I am. And, um, so apart from that, I guess we, um, I work at a nursery that my, my father started a home business that, uh, has grown about 28 or 29 greenhouse and, um, manage a few other managers and supervisors in that process plan on, uh, taking the, the lead role in that as, so that's my occupation. Um, we have four daughters, my wife, Heather, my oldest daughter is, um, nine. And, uh, I have a seven year old, five year old and a six month old. OK. Um, so during the course of the, the conversation, uh, tonight, you might see my wife pass back behind me to get our baby that doesn't always sleep through the night. Um, but that's kinda where we in life right now. We've mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:08:55 <affirmative> okay. Sounds. Sounds good. Yeah. We have my wife and I there and I have four kids as well.
Speaker 2 00:09:04 Okay.
Speaker 1 00:09:04 Just, uh, we have three boys and a girl just finally had our, our girl, um, she's almost two year and a half.
Speaker 2 00:09:14 Okay.
Speaker 1 00:09:15 And our oldest
Speaker 2 00:09:16 Is busy days.
Speaker 1 00:09:18 Yeah. So you guys, you you're in Michigan, Western, Michigan.
Speaker 2 00:09:23 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:09:24 Which is, uh, what are some of the CI like traverse city area?
Speaker 2 00:09:31 Uh, no traverse city would be two to three hours north of us. So, um, the easiest way, hold up your hand. We're about right there. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:09:40 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:09:40 OK. Um, so we're, we're directly west of rapids. Um, OK. So grand rapids is about 30 miles away or so, um, we're right along the lake short here, about four, five miles from lake Michigan.
Speaker 1 00:09:52 Yeah. What would you said? Sorry, maybe you said, but what, how old were you when your family kind of shifted theology?
Speaker 2 00:10:01 I was 11.
Speaker 1 00:10:01 11. So what, what you said holiness, you were from holiness background.
Speaker 2 00:10:08 Yeah, so my parents were raised Nazarene. Um, and then they, they had been part of the Nazarene church until I think around the time my sister was born. And then, um, there was a, a missionary church in, in the area and I, I, I'm not really for sure on all the details, why they left the Nazarene church, but I know they're attracted to this missionary church cause they were very strong in child training, um, and in family and, um, they, and, and in worship, I mean, they're sometimes their, I guess their evening services would go like three hours and they'd just bring blankets and lay the kids down on the floor and all that mean it was wow. And they had a church school. And so that was something that they were really excited about that, um, we might be able to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 00:10:59 The school actually closed just before we were able it. So we didn't, um, the, um, yeah, I guess the, some of the scriptures were opened up to mom and dad about things like, um, divorce, remarriage, the, the, the roles of men and women in the church, the, um, the head covering. Um, and so we kinda went through some of those awkward times of, um, I think the very first time we visited a Mennonite church, my mom and sister had Amish son and dad wore and they had wedding rings on, so oh, okay. It was, so it was just, you know, a mix of transition and that's what we were
Speaker 1 00:11:51 <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I, I, um, I grew up in a conservative anti Baptist setting. Mm-hmm <affirmative> now I've spent the last, uh, 2008. What is that? 14 years out here in California? Did you know I'm based in California? Yes. I'm not. Yeah. For yes. And that, yeah. I always kind of assume people if they follow my work, know where I am, but, um, so now our setting is, is full of, of mixture of things. Sure. So, um,
Speaker 2 00:12:29 And I guess that was, that was another thing I wanted to bring up is the, the church that we were until I was 11, was a mixed culture, mixed racial church. And I'm so glad that I was born into a church like that because
Speaker 1 00:12:43 Hmm.
Speaker 2 00:12:44 I really miss that. And a lot of Mennonite circles, I, I love my Mennonite brothers and sisters very much, but there's almost a monoculture when it comes to
Speaker 1 00:12:56 Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:12:57 <affirmative> um, I dunno, just all aspects of culture, you know, I always had some good friends and mentors that were, um, African American and, um, I, I really miss that in a church setting.
Speaker 1 00:13:13 Yeah. So you, you, can't, you come, um, I'm curious how, since our, since the conversation is discussing, like how to ha have dialogue about different perspectives, and even when you disagree and so forth, what would you say that some of the background of your, your faith journey and your family's faith journey has kind of equipped you or, or helped you, um, be able to dialogue where you have differing opinions without, without it escalating into a where it feels personally threatening? Um,
Speaker 2 00:13:57 I think so. Um, and this is, I think one of the big problems is when you only listen to the people that think like you, or, um, if, if you've never had to test why you think the way you think or believe the way you believe, um, it feels threatening when, when other people do
Speaker 1 00:14:25 Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 00:14:25 <affirmative> instead of, if you're, if you're already doing that, if you're already testing what you think against scripture, if you've, if you've been through that, um, you, you're kind of equipped to say, no, this is something we all need to look at is what, what is real and what is true here. And, um, draw some conclusions. And I guess, I don't know how to, how to quantify, how, how all that's impacted. Um, but it is something I noticed through some Bible school experiences, people from large Mennonite communities, they, it almost felt like we were speaking on a different wavelength sometimes, um, times, um, because the, that dialogue couldn't exist as, as freely, there's more dismissiveness or something. I dunno that my perspective I'm little out there or something, but, um, but you just isolate within one thought pattern and don't let it get challenged. Even if it's, there's a lot of truth to it, it's still dangerous because one of the things that we found as we came into the Mennonite church, dad is asking a lot of questions.
Speaker 2 00:15:45 And so I got to kinda witness this a lot. He would say, well, why do you do this? Why do you do that? Um, and so many times the answer was, I dunno, that's just what we've always done. Interesting. And so there was a disconnect between what they were doing and why they were doing it. And we had come into the church with a lot of reasons why we're doing this. You know, we don't just leave a church, community and family and start looking very strange to all those that are, are near to us for no reason. We thought it was very scriptural and it was sad to get there. And they almost knew less than we did about why they were doing it. Hmm. Um, and that, that was kind of disheartening, but I think that plays into your question about, um, how to handle challenges to your, to your convictions or to, I mean, obviously disagreements can be about a lot of things, but, um, yeah. Uh, the ability to different of mm-hmm <affirmative> is lost. If, if you don't have those other points of you challenging a lot.
Speaker 1 00:16:58 Yeah. Yeah. It's the, the, this whole conversation is meaningful. I think it's meaningful for anybody who, who interacts on social media, but mm-hmm <affirmative>, but for me, um, I, I have had people say that I only, I only listen to people who agree with me and those, those people saying that are often people I'm feeling are either whether it's, whether it's directly to me or even just to other people on the thread, like, feel, feels like they're, they're going more after the person and not like mm-hmm, <affirmative> discussing the idea. And, and so I, it, it's hard, especially when you're in a disagreement with somebody, like it's hard, it's hard to, um, say, no, you can disagree with me if, if you do it this way, like that sounds that then sounds like
Speaker 2 00:18:09 Trying to control the conversations much
Speaker 1 00:18:11 Or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It has to. And so, um, I guess maybe I'll just throw this question your way, like, is, is there a place to, well, first of all, I guess it'd be, I'd be curious to hear where you, where you started, where did we start interacting? I don't even remember where we first started interacting
Speaker 2 00:18:34 <laugh> other than a comment here or there. I think it was the whole Jacob Blake, um,
Speaker 1 00:18:40 Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 00:18:40 Okay. The, the post surrounding that and, yeah. Um, so just a little bit more about where I come from when it comes to the media and politics. I yeah. Grew up listening to limb. I loved the Paulin sattire that he had and stuff like that. So when I, when I start saying things like let's stay away from mockery, that's not an easy thing for me to come to <laugh> because that I enjoyed that kind of, um, banter that was in, in talk radio. Um, and so, and I'm sorry, I forget what your original question was there. Right. Why I brought that? I think
Speaker 1 00:19:24 <laugh>, I think I, I had asked kinda a string of questions, but, um, oh, my question was what, where did we first start interacting?
Speaker 2 00:19:33 Okay. So, yeah. And then, so I was gonna talk about how I got into that Jacob Blake conversation. Cause largely I had been seeing things like Trayvon Martin and Ferguson, Missouri, and things from that perspective of this is just blown way outta proportion by the media mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, um, so it interesting to hear a counter perspective, which I think perspective on that situation was let's grieve that this was man was shot. Mm. And I was like, well, you know what? That's right. We should. Um, and that was a very toxic conversation across the board, as I recall. Um, yeah. And then, but then, you know, I I've kind followed you from there and, and didn't always agree. Didn't always disagree. Just like to think deeply about some of these topics. And I appreciated that you're willing to stick your neck out there and talk about them.
Speaker 1 00:20:37 Yeah. Yeah. I get that a lot that you're willing to stick out there and talk about <laugh>, uh, sometimes it might be more ignorance than anything. Um, if I knew that it would ignite quite the, the controversy or whatever, I, I probably wouldn't have brought it up in the first place, but, um, yeah. I mean the whole, the whole Jacob Blake, I had, I had, uh, I talked about, yeah. I mean, there's kind of some backstory to that. I don't know if I'll get into it right now, but the whole summer of 2020 had a lot of different things to, to bring up. But the thing about Jacob Blake that struck me was I had, I, I have friends that could have been Jacob Blake, like, and would've acted just, just like him in many ways. His encounter was maybe more excusable. Um, yeah. Even though, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:40 Depending on who you talk to, it may not feel that way, but, but, you know, he did, he did walk away from cops. Like he, he was resisting arrest. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and from where I grew up, my upbringing, that, that would've been appalling, like don't complain about anything that happens to you if you're gonna resist arrest. But, but now that I've developed friends who I, I have no clue what was going through Jacob Blake's mind, but I can imagine what would be going through some of my friends' minds and why they would rationalize, like, just resisting the cops out of the sake for the sake of, of taking care of their kids or whatever, even though they have records and like, they don't like on the paper, they, they look like very troubled men and easy to, to, um, uh, arrest or press charges for.
Speaker 1 00:22:39 And so that's kinda where, yeah, where the whole, my, my whole perspective came from was the, the grief of like, it's just a, the, the whole scene is chaotic, grieving. The, the conflict that, that brought Jacob to that house in the first place, and then the, the, the MIS distrust between law and, and, uh, civilian and, and then the shooting and everything. Um, and so, yeah, it was, it was surprising then to have a lot of people, uh, the, the way they responded to that, I was just going back through FA uh, I don't think I've cleaned out like my, for the Facebook page, the, the messenger inbox since then. And I was going back through kind of cleaning out the messenger inbox and just struck at all the, around that conversation specifically, um, a, a lot of people that sent in messages and, and, and such in regard to whatever happened, I didn't go back and look at the threat again.
Speaker 1 00:23:51 Um, but I, and I, and now I don't even remember what the questions I had asked before, but, um, one, one thing that I started around that time, I guess it's at, if that's where you started following, I started noticing you, uh, would engage conversation even recently, you've done this, you, you would kinda repeat back or like, try to, to say what you're hearing from the post that I did. Um, and, and then I, I remember even some about, uh, racial conversations, you offered different perspectives. I think you were, uh, one of the guys that got me onto reading Thomas, so, and mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, and I've, I've valued that like, I've benefited from that it's, it's broadened, broaden the whole conversation, or for me, it's broadened, you know, learning more through that. Sometimes, sometimes we come at the conversation or any conversation like it's either, or it's either.
Speaker 1 00:24:59 Yeah. You know, it's either Thomas, so, or, uh, it candy, or, you know, some, somebody on the, who would have a different take or whatever, rather than recognizing kind of the, the fields they're working in and how they might be yeah. Interacting with each other. Um, and so I guess the broad question that I would have for you is I was gonna, I was gonna go, I was <laugh>. I was gonna ask the question, like, what are some principles that you've learned about interacting online, but maybe, maybe we should start first and dissect, like, why con why did, why does a conversation like that Thomas Blake thread or not Thomas, Jacob Blake thread or, um, um, other conversations it's it seems like any, any conversation <laugh>, and even as I'm talking, I'm thinking like, so when in 2020, I didn't really patrol my threads at all. I just kind of whatever.
Speaker 1 00:26:08 And then after 2020, I decided I'm not interacting at all. <laugh> well, then I heard from, from people that were the kind of people that I would like for them to comment on my threads, that they had stopped following the page. And so then I decided, well, I'm gonna patrol the threads. Like, I'm actually gonna, if somebody's attacking other people mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, or just trolling, then I'm gonna block them, I'll appeal to them and then I'll block them. Sure. And I would say after about a year now of doing some of that, I have, I have noticed that there is a shift that there are more people interacting, who, who do well, like they're not just attacking just a few weeks ago. There was a thread that, that got a little outta hand and I don't always know the rhyme or reason to which ones go that way or not. But, um, so I, it does seem like there is a level of whoever's hosting the thread maybe can kind of create
Speaker 2 00:27:13 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:27:14 The culture or the environment, but what would some of the things that you see, why do conversations on social media become so polarizing? Is it, are we just more and more polarized as a people? Like, are we that way outside of social media? Is there something unique about social media or the way we interact on social media that
Speaker 2 00:27:36 I think it is unique in that, um, there's a, let's just take some of the logistics of it. Okay. Um, it's not the best kinda communication you don't have all the nonverbals when you're just, um, commenting on a thread, um, as opposed to even interacting like you and I are let alone in person, um, it's reaching more people, but I think in a less effective way, kinda like a billboard, I mean, it's, it's out there, but the context is completely lost. Like it hits people. What I've found is that different. If, if I different moods I'm in, when I read something, things will hit me weird versus other times I might be in a more thoughtful mood or whatever. Um, and so in a conversation you're where, where you're in the same community in the same room, you're sharing a context and you don't have any of that in social media.
Speaker 2 00:28:36 So just from a logistic standpoint, it's already losing <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and you're interacting a lot of times with people you don't know, so you don't have a shared history. You don't have, I mean, sometimes you do, or sometimes it's it's limited. Um, and, but that doesn't have to be, I mean, case in point, you and I are getting to know each other without having, uh, had toxic disagreements. Um, one of the advantages logistically of course, is that it's written down. So you could, if some, if PE, if you, if people would take the time to be thoughtful, they could actually read and reread and try to understand. But I think we often just go off that initial gut feeling of what was said and express our emotions without doing a whole lot of thinking. Um, my wife and I, I think I, I mentioned you, um, that my wife and I, during our, our courtship days were not in the same community.
Speaker 2 00:29:38 We were mostly on the other side of the world. She was from Virginia, but she was a lot of time in Thailand. And so there was times where it was like, okay, I would get up in the, it was 11 or 12 hours difference depending on time of year. And I would get up in the morning at six in the morning so that we could have a, a Skype call, um, around, for dinner time. Well, that wasn't too difficult for me because it was the first thing I would do getting up in the morning. Well, you think of when you're, um, 20, 21 years old, how old she was at the time, and she has a family she's at, uh, I go there and there's a lot going on. And the obligations and stresses in that context, my context are different. So we had to learn how to understand each other's, um, perspectives without, you know, if, if I got up and she wasn't available or other times it was the other way around.
Speaker 2 00:30:39 Um, so I have a level of understanding because they're in a different world than I am. Mm-hmm <affirmative> now that that may be easy to do when you're pursuing a relationship with somebody. But what if you're just kinda loosely following somebody on social media and you're an entirely different context. I mean, you, you're not really motivated to try to understand the world somebody's coming from. And I think that's a lot of the, the doors that if people would listen to your conversations on race, that you're, you're trying to open, there is not so much that people should take a politically liberal point of view that tends to emphasize race, but more open your ears up to people that are in a different world than you are, and, and hear their voices, you know, and the other thing is when you're in different worlds, um, you only have so much capacity for conflict.
Speaker 2 00:31:41 And so if you're at work and you have conflict and you come home and you wanna sit down and enjoy social media or whatever, and you see this crazy far out thing, that's totally different than way you think. Well, it's, it's easy just to blow off little steam on it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so trying to humanize each other, I think you've used that recently in some of yours, um, I think is, is huge trying to who this other person is that I haven't met on social media. I may be responding to, um, as big, um, just an example. Okay. My wife, when she is pregnant, she gets as sick as I've ever seen somebody. Um, so this last time she was on meds was fluids. Um, just gets super, super sick. OK. That puts her in contact with other people. Cause she, she helps, um, some online groups, um, that are other women facing these same circumstances. She's had to talk people off the ledge of abortion. Numerous times when I was younger, I thought of abortion and maybe it was presented to me as something of convenience. People just didn't wanna deal with a baby. And so they chose to have an abortion. Um, but when you start interacting with the people that are actually on that edge,
Speaker 1 00:33:23 Mm-hmm, <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:33:24 You start to see that human element, the agony they're going through, doesn't make it anymore, right. To take an unborn life, but it does give you an empathy with them to hear where they're at and to, um, hear their cry for help.
Speaker 1 00:33:42 Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:33:42 And I think that's the kinda that we, we need a little more of is just opening ourselves to seeing people that are in worse circumstances than we and the, we have, um, of not being in that circumstance or if we have gone through it to relive the pain of that to help them.
Speaker 1 00:34:06 Yeah, that's good. And I think, I think another aspect of social, uh, Facebook, especially, but social media is it, does the algorithm rewards the negative,
Speaker 2 00:34:20 The controversy.
Speaker 1 00:34:21 Yeah. The controversy. And so then, yeah, we do tend to see that, that probably a little more than the, the positive, but, um, yeah, the, the whole, the whole aspect of humanizing, I, I, um, that that's not original with me. Um, first, first of all, I've heard other people talk about that, like how we need to humanize each other in conflict. But then I just, I randomly asked for, I forget why I heard somebody. Yeah. I, I forget what inspired me, but I just asked people like, how could I, how can I pray for them? Mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, here a couple weeks ago on, on social media where there was a conversation I had had an offline that made me think about like, you know, well, this is a good question to ask people, period, like anywhere mm-hmm <affirmative> and you never see that on social media.
Speaker 1 00:35:15 And I was surprised how, how many people actually responded publicly, but, but then even privately, and even, even, um, there, there was one person who's told me that UN deceived about a certain thing, shared a prayer request with me <laugh> and I was like, wow, like I almost muted our conversation <laugh> because, because it was, it wasn't going anywhere before. And, and now he saw the, uh, my, um, invitation to share a prayer request and he shared a prayer request. It was, it just helped me see the, the human behind all these different people. Yeah. Um, and so I was struck by how it changed my perspective on them. And I think any, any way that we can find that mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, even entering yeah. Entering people's context is, is engaging in social media. Is there any value to that? Like what, why do you continue to engage in social media? Or should we, like, some people would say, we should just get off social media? Is that what we should do?
Speaker 2 00:36:39 I totally respect it if people wanna do that. And there's times where I think I spend time on it, um, because I think we do need to be careful about the time we spend and how our relationships in person are compared to these somewhat relationships online. You know, I mean, there's, again, there's a capacity issue there, but, um, I think to me, the value has been learning to consider other viewpoints, um, than what I maybe had. Um, it's so another thing story about my dad, um, he, he often listens to, to sermons while he's going to sleep. Um, he has ringing his ears and he, he enjoys hearing something. And so, um, he, he turns on the, the one he affectionately refers to as his favorite har uh Jabre and the D cause he disagrees with him on so many different levels <laugh> and yet, and,
Speaker 1 00:37:46 And he can fall asleep on that.
Speaker 2 00:37:48 Yes. Because, well, for one thing, his voice is such that it's, it's kinda soothing, but I think the, he enjoys listening to him even when he is awake, because it's like, it comes from a totally different perspective. I mean, he's, Calvinistic, he's hyper dispensational he's, um, a lot of different things, but I don't think he distrusts his heart mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think that's one of the keys to all this is while we're hearing these other perspectives. Is there any element of trust and that's trust is a hard thing to build over social media and maybe it, it can't be, but, um, just take any conflict, social media or otherwise, um, there's no healthy conflict without trust. Um, I dunno if you're familiar with Patrick one's, uh, five dysfunction of a team, but the, the base of that period of dysfunction is when there's an absence of trust. Yeah. Um, cause the second one is there's no healthy conflict and there can't be healthy conflict if we don't trust each other enough. Um, he had a quote I wanted to bring up on this topic. Um, when, when there is trust, conflict becomes nothing but the pursuit of truth and attempt to find the best answer.
Speaker 2 00:39:10 And whereas what I see a lot of times in, in these combative debates is the whole thing of it's actually the whole point of conflict is to make me look good or make my Hmm, win the argument. You know, mm-hmm,
Speaker 1 00:39:26 <affirmative> say that quote again, when there's trust conflict,
Speaker 2 00:39:31 When there's trust conflict becomes nothing, but the pursuit of truth and attempt to find the best answer mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I've seen this played out a lot, um, on my, in my job. So, uh, my dad and I are, are kind of the head managers of, of our company, but we have other managers and supervisors and we'll get together in a meeting and sometimes they, they just sit back and watch dad night. Cause we'll, we'll very robustly dialogue very directly, um, without being intimidated without a fear of that. And um, all for the purpose of coming to the best conclusions. So we push back on each other. My, I had a professor in college that was in, in the small business, uh, field and he was, it was marketing class and he was, he would convince people going in that their business idea was gonna fail.
Speaker 2 00:40:28 Um, because he kept pushing back on all these assumptions every little week point because he says, I'm sorry, bookstores, don't make it these days. You know, and everybody wanted to open a bookstore or whatever it was. And because it's not to be mean it's not to it's to come to the, to the most realistic form of, of, uh, the facts that are relevant to whatever we're discussing. And if we can take the emotion out, it, that's very hard, we're emotional people, but if we can take the emotion out it, um, at least where, where it gets personal and, and defensive, it can really help the conversation actually reached the goal of finding truth.
Speaker 1 00:41:09 Yeah. Yeah. That's good. And that I, I read, um, the five dysfunctions of a team last year and it, it was incredible how it, uh, there was a particular situation here locally that was working through and, and that whole absence of trust
Speaker 2 00:41:33 Mm-hmm,
Speaker 1 00:41:33 <affirmative> just, <laugh> not quite, but it felt like it was, it put the finger right. On the, the issue. And as you build that trust or deal with like what broke the trust. So many other things come back into right into place and allow you to,
Speaker 2 00:41:52 They gotta be vulnerable to do that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:41:55 Yeah. So, uh, we are over our hour here. Um, I have a couple more questions, but I do, you are, you press for time.
Speaker 2 00:42:08 We,
Speaker 1 00:42:10 For those, for those who don't know, we're recording this, it's getting fairly late in the night for Seth. So of course he's pressed for time. Um, but one, one question I'd be curious for you, especially for me personally, is so, so you, you talked about how you choose which conversations to engage in for me, I actually don't engage in other conversations very much. I'm I'm creating the conversation or posting it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And the thing I struggle with is how do I know? Well, the que the question that I sent to you is how to handle disagreements, but even, even more than that, like sometimes, sometimes a disagreement is like, somebody offered a different perspective. I know I've done this with you. Different times, you offered a different perspective. And I don't really have anything to say in response to like, it's, it's a valid, valid point to the conversation.
Speaker 1 00:43:06 And so I may not respond to it. Just kind of let it mm-hmm <affirmative> stand of let it stand. And, but then somebody else might come on and the, the tone or the temperament just doesn't sound gracious or something. And so then I start engaging them because I want to kind of curb that where it feels like it might be leading. And then, um, well then I get accused of, of coming after the ones that disagree with me and, or, or only liking ones that agree with me. And so I I'm con I'm constantly evaluating or like trying to learn how, how do I know how to handle disagreements? How do which disagreements to engage? Um, do you have any thoughts on that? Like, how do you handle, if somebody, if you leave a comment or you make a post and somebody comes on you D disagreeing with you, what's kind of your process for that?
Speaker 2 00:44:08 I guess I come back to what, how, how much do I know, how much have I seen them interact? Do I think the conversation go anywhere? I had recently posted on my own something that, um, I'd kind of inspired. Um, you know, we, we talk about our turning the other cheek and, and non-resistance as a way of life when it comes to our, um, not going to war and things like that. And our, and our anti churches. Um, and yet I think a broader application of that and, and much more common application that would be, uh, to not get defensive in our tone with one another. And the only comments I got were from, uh, friends and family that couldn't get past the first part of not going to war, not engaging in self defense. And so that's what they were commenting about, about how that, that was certainly.
Speaker 2 00:45:16 OK. And, and, uh, and one of 'em was a, a combat veteran and, you know, I just posted about not being defensive. And so I was thinking, well, should I engage with them about this? It wasn't really what the post was about. And it would make me look like I'm being defensive. Yeah. So I just was like, well, you know, a lot of people would hold that point of view. And, and I didn't really think it was that I was gonna have a chance at convincing them anyways. Um, and so was just, just kinda let it go. Um, yeah. If people actually wanna engage in a conversation, then I'm totally to do that. So sometimes just it's at, um, you, um, with, um, Rosa Butterfield. Yeah. Um, her, her work, she, uh, in her book about coming to faith from a, um, lesbian professor, um, at Syracuse. Yeah. She, um, talks
Speaker 1 00:46:27 Is that, um, which one is that I'm familiar with? Uh, the gospel comes with a house key.
Speaker 2 00:46:32 Okay. Okay. So no, this is secret thoughts of an unlikely. So this is her test, her autobiography, essentially. Um, it's a great read. Um, the way she came to faith was she was critiquing, she, she was as part of her. Um, I think it was part of her doctoral thesis was, um, critiquing the religious right and its use of the Bible. And so she was devouring scripture from multiple translations just to try to get to know the fundamentalists she was writing about. Um, and she had written an oped when promise keepers came. And I think they used the Syracuse, um, stadium, um, and wrote an oped about how these are just show us that shouldn't be allowed on the campus and all this. She was being her, her, um, self there. And she got a whole bunch of mail in response to that. And she divided into two piles, the hate mail and the, the supportive mail. And then she had one letter. She could not figure out where to put it. So a Presbyterian pastor that invited her to have a conversation.
Speaker 2 00:47:59 And she said that was so different from all the fundamentalists that she had encountered before that. And the, um, let's if I can. So she said that Christians always, to me, like bad readers, they to use the Bible in AUL, the conversation, not deep in it, she goes on to say the answers come after questions, not before. Cause she was talking about how people would say Jesus is the answer, answers, answer specific questions and pointed ways, not in sweeping generalizations and what she was getting from the, the, um, religious right was using the Bible to condemn her, to stop the conversation. Whereas this, this minister that, um, was so influential in her, um, conversion was saying, let's, let's talk about this. And he invited her to their home. Um, wasn't afraid of her homosexuality. Wasn't afraid of the fact that she brought a bottle of wine to the, to minister's house, you know? Um, and the way she put it is he walked down the long road to get to her, to bring her back down the long road to get to Jesus. And so that whole thing of, I, I say all this to say, when do we engage? Are we engaging in the way that, that religious right. So many we're engaging with her and confirming her bias, just bigoted or we engaging in way that will make, make.
Speaker 2 00:50:02 And so, you know, when it comes to like politics and when it comes to these controversial things, it's like, oh, I'll, I'll let somebody else win the argument. It's hard for me. Cause I like arguing. Um, I enjoy debate, but at the same time, it's like, you know what, at the end of the day, if I win a debate, but alienate somebody I've lost, that's not to say I won't respond. If I feel like I have something to say, but a lot of times those conversations just are too deep to have on, on social media thread. Um, and if I cut people off, you mentioned the one, um, earlier that, um, asked for prayer, even though felt like they might have been hostile before if I cut people off, just cause I'm not willing to take a hit for the team as it were. Um, what have I gained? You know, are we thinking in terms of the kingdom of God, are we just sparring? You know, let's leave the sparring to stuff like sports and stuff like that, but I'll in and trash when it comes to that. Cause it doesn't matter. You, it really doesn't matter. But we, the, of these other,
Speaker 2 00:51:24 Um,
Speaker 1 00:51:27 We, we we've talked about like how do, how do you know when to enter a conversation and then how to respond if somebody attacks you? Like, what are maybe just to kinda wrap up our time or what are some things, if you're in a conversation or you've, you've chosen to enter or, I mean, this can be, these are truths. I'm sure that can go into any situation beyond social media too. But how do you, how do you, how do we disagree in a way that people, first of all, the ones involved in the conversation feel respected, feel the dignified, but even people looking on might actually be like, wow, like they love each other. Like you can tell that they have a, a love for each other, even though they're disagreeing about the, the topic they're talking about.
Speaker 2 00:52:23 So how do we disagree in a, in a godly way, in a loving way? Um, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:52:32 It can't happen without that trust and, and, and over social media, you almost gotta just make a choice to trust and step out there. Um, and sometimes you might get harpoon, but, um, and so I'll just say that I, I have to assume that you are a person of Goodwill if I'm gonna come and say, well, brother, what about this? Yeah. Um, I think we, we talked a little bit about, um, before this conversation about the fact that, um, recently I think you posted something about, um, eschatology and your, your views on that leaning more on millennial. And I tend to be much more premillennial in my, in my viewpoints. And so in the past I've I what's that <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:53:17 Uh,
Speaker 2 00:53:18 Well, I just, I thought, you know, as an example of something like this, you know, I not, yeah. I have no interest in debating that topic with you at this point,
Speaker 1 00:53:26 There are pre millennials in, are in my church. So it's
Speaker 2 00:53:30 Yes, but at the, but at the same time, if I were to debate you on it, if were to respond to it, you know, there's a number of things that we could say that wouldn't have go down the road toxicity. Um, one of the things I like to do when it comes to disagreements is first ask questions. It's like, do you, so, uh, you say this, what about this? Or I think this is what you said. Can you expand on that all the while kind of assuming that we might disagree on it. Um, but giving you your fair say on it. So, um, instead of just responding to a post about the idea, I think, um, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one of your last posts on that said something about a lot of revelations already occurred or something like that.
Speaker 1 00:54:26 Um, I'm I I'd have to see which,
Speaker 2 00:54:30 Which I think it was the introduction to one of your previous podcasts, a conversation with the professor.
Speaker 1 00:54:36 Yeah. I forget exactly what I said on there. Um, but the, the, the notion that, you know, stuff like the mark of the beast was, was probably referring to a, an actual leader at that time.
Speaker 2 00:54:53 Yeah. Right. And so I could, I could come at you with, well, obviously that's wrong and not even deep in the conversation mm-hmm <affirmative> or I could say something along the lines of what do you mean by that? What, what, what is that referring to? Um, which parts are from that day? Which parts are future and are they exclusive one or the other, you know, just, yeah. Can we have a conversation where we explore each other's beliefs about something in a trusting and humble way, recognizing that, especially with something like tology that is not crystal clear. Um, but there is a lot of definitive scripture about it that we deepen other's understanding when it, to it, you know, um, it doesn't have to be a fight. It can be iron sharpening iron. It can be, um, um, engaging. I, I remember, um, before we became Inn, we'd never heard of anybody believing anything else, but the seven year Trib, all that.
Speaker 2 00:55:57 Um, and so <laugh> one of, I, I forget if it was, I think it was after dad was ordained in the church, the, the lead minister, an older man, um, we found out was a millennial after dad preached a sermon on the revelation and the way things are gonna be, and all this was told that it was unsound doctrine and <laugh> oh, wow. And all this. And so, um, that kinda blindside is like, oh, people believe something else. It just didn't have any idea. Yeah. And, um, so one thing led to another and, and eventually I think it was one of S BS, uh, Bible Institute was maybe unfamiliar. Um, in Pennsylvania, they, they host a minister study week, I think in February, or at least they, they did. I dunno what they did. Um, and dad used to go out to that with, with other people from the church.
Speaker 2 00:56:57 And he, uh, he, he said it was frustrating. Cause so many times he would wanna have this dialogue with an non-millennial it's like, why do you believe that? What do you do with this scripture? How do you, how do you handle Israel, all these different things. And nobody, it was threat. It was too threatening. It was, it was viewed as threatening. And so, but there was this one minister and I don't even, I'm not familiar with who it was. Um, but he was willing to sit down with dad and they had like an hour long conversation. And, um, they, they had a Mo again, they set up beforehand that, you know, if, if you get to a point where you just don't know, then you just say the Lord's ways are higher than my ways then. And each of them used that all again, I think once, uh, in the conversation, but they both came away from it, you know, edified and strengthened by it.
Speaker 2 00:57:47 I dunno that either one was convinced of, of anything else, except for the fact that they were both brothers in and they, they, um, respected each other's views and it's not. And, uh, you can take that too far. Obviously the world's a solution to these disagreements is the postmodern idea. Well, you do, you, I do me your truth, my truth. And that's not accurate either, but the question is, if we are pursuing the truth as Christians, how do we get there together? Yeah. In a, in a filled way. Um, father-in-law different view of the laws than, you know, brother Delph. I just, you, you obviously see them this way. And I see them this way. And, you know, we're, we're both kind of set in our ways, what are we gonna do about this? And my father-in-law just said, well, brother, I think we love each other.
Speaker 2 00:58:47 And so we do, you know, and so obviously some, some things are, are worth disagreeing and even dividing over and some aren't. Um, but can we discuss them with that mutual trust and love? Um, recently in our, in our Sunday school at church, we're going through we about this, about social media. Um, and second Timothy too, he said, um, be diligent or excuse me, let me back up to verse 14, remind them of these things and solely charge em, the presence of God, not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the, of the, but be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a Workman who D who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth, but avoid worldly, empty chatter for it will lead to further on godliness. And, you know, the, the contrast between wrangling about words, fighting about words and rightly handling the, it just struck me.
Speaker 2 01:00:02 I don't think I'd ever seen that contrast. So starkly, and I think that's that epitomizes where conflicts often are at, is we're thinking we're dividing, dividing, the Andes, accuses them of fighting over words and being discerning enough to know that difference and to engage in that appropriately. And interestingly enough, to talk about tology, he goes on to talk about somebody that did not, um, follow that somebody that had said that the, the, um, the resurrection happened already and over through the faith of some and all this. And he said, well, the answer to that is he didn't go into this deep ES argument. He went into two things. The, the firm foundation of God stands having this seal. The Lord knows who are his and everyone who names. The name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness. And so we, we, we get into these detailed nuanced conversations, and that's great.
Speaker 2 01:01:04 Sometimes we have zoom back out and look at the picture and say, Lord knows who are his. Maybe I need to focus on getting rid of a sin in my heart before I correct somebody else's theology, because a lot of the times cults like this one that he talks about that said, well, it's too late. Everything's already happened. Um, are just an excuse to hide sin. You look at every cult that's out there. And that's usually what it is. It's a misuse of scripture to hide sin. And so often I, I think these, these really, um, toxic conversations come, like you say, it comes from our hearts and it may be there cause we're hiding, um, the sin in my heart. And so I'm deflecting it onto somebody else's, um, political view or something like that and saying, well, they obviously change I'm and say moment thing of the, the beam. Right. Um, and trust that the Lord can handle the people that are his. Yeah,
Speaker 1 01:02:19 That's good. That's powerful. And I think it, I think it's verse eight of Timothy two, where he talks about, um, keep your attention, keep your attention fixed on Jesus Christ as, uh, risen from the dead, send it from David. That's been been, um, something I, a year ago. I was, I preach a sermon on that and was thinking I've just been convicted by how easy it can be to, to, to put our attention. Cuz in, as, as you were pointing out, like there's, there was clearly a lot of kind of controversy going on that, that mm-hmm <affirmative> Paul was ex or guiding Timothy and how to sort through and how we can, we can feel like we gotta get this all figured out
Speaker 2 01:03:14 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 01:03:16 And yet Paul's instructions are to just keep Jesus as the center,
Speaker 2 01:03:23 Right.
Speaker 1 01:03:24 To, and to focus on our own. Are we being conformed to Jesus? And, and sometimes that actually like when, when you stop and think about it, that feels like harder work. It would be easier to, to know clearly like where the you're wrong I'm right. Or, or even I'm wrong. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and you're right. And I gotta completely, but we need a holy spirit to, to empower us, to guide us, to interact in, in a way that Jesus stays the center. That's good.
Speaker 2 01:04:02 And I think there's when we get to heaven, there's gonna be a lot of things that we thought we understood that we'll find were so much deeper than what we ever considered. Um,
Speaker 2 01:04:15 And that's why we need to approach all these debates. We're talking about all these, whatever it's about with a good dose of humility. Um, and saying, you know, I, I don't have all the answers. This is my observation, but see what the Lord has shown with other people too. It's not a all scripture. Um, it says is, is not a private interpret scripture prophe say, forget which word it is. And Peter talks about isn't a private interpretation and the Lord has given us the church for a reason. Um, and social media can't replace the church. Um, we, we need our brothers and sisters in person, um, holding us accountable and, and helping us through life. We can't do it alone. Um, and I, I, I agree for those, that church has been a, a bad experience for some of the reasons we've been talking about, because I think it is the gift of God to us, to, to help us grow. And it's the opposite, that's God's fault. It's man's fault, um, corrupting that and where's, where's their own agendas. It's, it's, it's really, really sad. Yeah. And whereas, you know, as, as some of my church experiences have I have over approach the name of, and social media, I can at least with a measure of that, appreciate them. Even if we might not have the same perspective on everything.
Speaker 1 01:06:05 Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:06:08 Yeah. Well, thank you, Seth, for, for sharing with us and, um, and just, yeah. Being willing to have this conversation. I sure. I definitely echo that. I, I appreciate your presence on social media. Uh, I'm sure that I'm sure there's a lot that we could discuss debate about. Um, and yeah, I, look, I look, look forward to getting to know those more, but, um, I, I guess my, my heart, my desire for this conversation for people listening is that, that we can, I, I think we're the world, our culture, American culture, maybe the world at large is at a place of tremendous fracturing. And then, um, you know,
Speaker 1 01:07:02 Not having conversations, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's, it's too heated. We don't even talk. Maybe we mock each other. And then we have the conversations about the other people in our own groups. And sometimes it's mocking and, and the demeaning, but we, as the church are, are called to something completely different. And yet we're still like, we're still humans and we have many different perspectives. And so we're, we're gonna feel the tension, but how do we navigate through that and, and dialogue in a way that is totally counterculture different yeah. From the, the world. Um, so I hope, I hope this can at least spring our imaginations for how, how can we do this in a way that it's not like any, I don't, I don't know if people who really disagree with me. I don't know if they listen to the podcast <laugh> but if they are listening to the podcast, like, I hope, I hope you understand. I'm not trying to get you. I mean, I, I, I would like if you would agree with me on some issues, that's not the point of this conversation. The point of this conversation is for all of us to learn how to, to talk in a more respectful, uh, loving way. Yeah. For true. Because we definitely don't need everybody to agree with me or each other. We need think of, um, first Corinthians 11, 19. I think it is
Speaker 1 01:08:40 When Paul says that I there's factions among you. And I know that there are, because, uh, there needs to be so that those who are sincere are approved, I think is, is how it's worded. Um, We need the conflict shouting each other, and Yeah. Bringing forth the sincerity and the, The fruit of God in our lives. Thank you for spending this late night with, with me and yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 01:09:14 Glad we're able to, to make it work and Glad to get to know you a little bit better.
Speaker 1 01:09:20 Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully sometime we can, uh, meet in person, take the friendship to the, the next dimension. Yeah. So whenever you write the book, uh, let me know. <laugh> We'll have you back on and some good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Speaker 2 01:09:40 Thanks
Speaker 3 01:10:26 Christianity. And on Fay, Christianity is brought to you by our members at Anon as a part of the membership program. You receive two deep dead essays a month and expanded versions of all our podcast interviews. If you would like to become a member visit www.asuawhipper.com/member on Christianity podcast is also a part of two networks. The restorative faith collective, where we have conversations about race perspectives and relationships in a Baptist context to learn about more articles and podcasts visit www dot restorative faith, collective.org. The second network is the kingdom outpost, where we talk about what it looks like to live as Jesus' nation in today's world. For more podcasts, kingdom, outpost.org. Thanks for listening.
