Speaker 0 00:00:00 I think this is probably, I told, I told you before we started recording that this is probably the most unprepared I've been for podcasts before, and which is evidenced by the fact that it's like way over my time limit. Um, but all those people who are complaining to us about our long podcasts <laugh> to, to go somewhere else for, <laugh> like a, a podcast app, lets you pause and you can even go listen to other podcast episodes. It does and then come back and it'll just pick up right where you left off. So it's see at, but at this point in the podcast, we're just preaching to the choir. Cause is people all listen things, the only people listening, unless I this in, at the very beginning, I like I put it in. Oh yeah, there you go. There you go. <laugh> you should, you should just do it at the beginning
Speaker 1 00:00:48 To get everybody hello, friends and welcome back to uny Christianity, where we reconcile our human experiences with God and his word, or at least we attempt to reconcile them so that we can love God love others from your heart, a good conscience and sincere faith. One of those things that is difficult is how do we process, uh, when, when we've been taught something or we grew up in an environment and a culture, and then we're shifting in that. And um, there's many different words for that today. But one of 'em one of the most popular ones right now is deconstruction and, and there's a lot of confusion, uh, because it seems like sometimes people who deconstruct end up deconvert and so is deconstruction bad. Is there something malicious behind that? How do we do this? Well, do we need to, uh, there's some emphasis on it's we're done deconstructing time to start constructing something better and building, and I think there's value in that and actually really important. There's there's absolutely no value deconstructing, unless we're gonna build something better.
Speaker 1 00:01:55 But sometimes the emphasis on building something better can just kind of shut down the conversation, processing an issue. And how do we navigate that? And I'm excited to have my brother Christopher Whit Meron. Um, my brothers are definitely kind of my comrades and sorting through a lot of the things that eventually comes out in public setting, whether it's through an article or through podcast, a lot of it has been hashed out with my brothers first. And, and this is a conversation we've talked a lot about, especially Christopher has, has a, a unique passion and burden for people who are processing faith processing doubts. And, and both of us have actually had a journey of reanalyzing reconsidering, like what we were taught or maybe what we believed, what we concluded as we read scripture. So how do we do this? Well, how walk the road with others and not just shut down conversation. I'm excited to have this conversation with him. It is the, the complete episode is about two hours and 40 minutes, two, two and a half hours somewhere in there.
Speaker 0 00:02:59 So you're getting about half of it here. And, uh, the, the last half is a lot more in depth, a little more personal. Uh, I think it's very relevant to each of each of us, but, uh, I decided for this partly for the sake of time and then partly for the sake of, of J just maybe those who really want more in depth help can get, can get this, uh, more intimate version. And so that's the last half. The full expanded version is just for podcast members, uny Christianity members. And so if you wanna become a member just $10 a month, you get access to all present future, uh, expanded versions of podcast episodes, as well as the deep dive essays that we produced just recently produced one on the head covering, just go to Asher whitmer.com/member, and you'll see how you can sign up there. www.asherwhitmer.com/member. All right. Here's my episode with Christopher.
Speaker 0 00:04:23 All right. Well, Hey, it's good to be here with my brother Christopher on Christianity. I think this is the, is this the first time you've been on the podcast? I think officially, yeah, I think we were on a Patreon or something that you did a video. Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot about that. Yeah. Pato. Oh, I was on the singles singles podcast. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I thought there was one, the end of 2020. There was a, yeah. A podcast I did with what, three or four other single. Yeah, there were four of us single people. And uh, now ironically, two of them are no longer single and planning to get married next month. Uh, who would that be? <laugh> my fiance. Kimberly. Um, so yeah, it's good to have you on we, uh, a few years ago, uh, was that 2019? We were on, Y you did the third way podcast for a little while.
Speaker 0 00:05:18 Yeah. And 20 yeah. 20 think. Yeah. Yeah. Invited me to be a part of that for what, what did we do? Six, six episodes or so we did eight episodes. Yeah. Oh eight. That was a lot of fun. I'm sad that I, uh, I'm sad that I neglected that. No, yeah. It was fun. It was good. I don't know if that, uh, I could have kept on going much longer, especially if I, cuz that was right around the same time I started this and so oh yeah. Few you and Titus. Yeah. We both kinda started our own podcast after you got us going. I launched, I launched you guys. Yeah, you did. <laugh> I had, I had been planning to start a podcast. <laugh> your platform was much bigger than the third ways <laugh> but yeah, no third way kind of helped me see how easy it actually was.
Speaker 0 00:06:16 Kind of do it. So yeah. Well I have been, we have been talking about getting on here. We have, I don't know how many of my audience knows my family. I, I kind of assume people do, but um, I come from a family of five, three boys and two girls and I'm smack in the middle. That's why I'm such a well rounded folk. <laugh> um, and I'm kidding if people don't, if people can't catch sarcasm, there's probably gonna be a lot of, might be a lot of sarcasm today, cuz that's kinda the, a little bit, the language of our family sometimes and especially me and my brothers. And so Christopher is the youngest in our family, probably the most, uh, good looking and the most popular, I don't know. Wow. <laugh> definitely the most artistic. Yeah. Or, uh, truly true artist. I think like can sit down with a blank slate and something beautiful comes out. You it, anyways, I have bugged my brothers multiple times about coming on my podcast, sort of like this sort of like I have a different close people of mine. And uh, I was gonna say sort of like I have my wife, but I didn't know if she wanted me to spill that on the air. Well now it's there. I can go edit it out. Um, that's true.
Speaker 0 00:07:48 And now yeah, we're uh, making it happen at least, uh, at least with Christopher kinda what got us going is there's been a lot of conversation around deconstruction lately. It's interesting. Deconstruction is the out a new term. It's, you know, even, even the idea of deconstructing your faith, I think has been around, you know, several years now, but about a year ago or the last couple years, I've, I've gone through just a season of life where I rethink and reevaluate a lot of things. Um, and that kinda led me to a year ago, begin another book, which some, some of my audience would know that, especially if you're a patron, um, the working title is unfolding faith and just kind of talking about like our, sometimes we view faith as like a destination that you you're gonna come to and you arrive to, and reality is faith is relationship with Jesus and, and just like any relationship in life in general, it, it unfolds over time.
Speaker 0 00:08:58 Like new things happen and new experiences and so unfolding, like, like, um, something that was bound up and now you're unfolding it and you're seeing it more fully and looking at it. And so I'm a couple chapters into that book kind of writing it. And, and, uh, it was like September of 20, 21, maybe all of a sudden a huge conversation started happening around deconstruction. I didn't really think I was writing a work of deconstruction. Um, more just to how my faith has been shaped or mm-hmm <affirmative> or changed. But you have you, um, you have you in the conversation of deconstruction, especially as brothers, as we talk about it. Um, you are someone who fairly openly talks about deconstruction and can really identify with some of the, I I'm gonna say this and then you can just speak for yourself. Sure. Cause maybe I misrepresented, but um, can really identify with some of the, the people that have ended up what we, what we would might better call deconvert where they just walk away from Jesus completely.
Speaker 0 00:10:23 And, and just to clarify, when you say you identify with that, not, not necessarily that I sense that you're deconvert, but the original questions and problems that mm-hmm <affirmative> that kind of led them to, to reconsider their faith. Um, mm-hmm, <affirmative> makes a lot of sense and there's been some articles and stuff, even conversations on Facebook. And so other social media that where people push back and like that you shouldn't it's time to stop deconstructing and now we need to build something reconstruct and, and, uh, your voice, at least in my life has been, cuz I, I think I I've tended to maybe I, and this is maybe goes back to you being more of a true artist you're you're okay with some uncomfortability and like not sure where this picture's going. Um, whereas I'm, I may be a little bit more like needing something certain and, and like to have some predictability or like see where I'm going.
Speaker 0 00:11:22 And so I just, as, as brothers, that conversation has, has, uh, I've really valued the conversation, um, with you and actually like some of your own discussion on it has been a part of my own journey too, because I think sometimes we can be things can be going on internally that we either, we don't have words for, or we're not really letting ourselves acknowledge because we're afraid of where it might go. And, um, and, and so I have found it helpful to kind of talk through some of these things with you. I don't know. What, what would you add to that? I think, I think generally I'll just quickly say this and then I'll let you talk. But, um, it feels like there's a growing division. Can you hear my boys out here? Yeah. They're kinda trying to bleed that out in the editing. No, that's fine. Um, just a second. <laugh> okay.
Speaker 0 00:12:34 Um, what was I saying? Um, you, um, you were about to hand it over to me, but oh, you had a thought, I think some of what led to this actual recording perhaps is, has just been, it seems like there's a growing, uh, false dichotomy perhaps like people, people not, uh, even, even just books coming out about like, as if deconstruction is an intentional, that that might frame it as if deconstruction is an intentional process to lead people, to deconvert or like unraveling of faith. And as if there's almost some, some of the articles and stuff that have come out, make it, like there's a specific agenda behind it. Um, yeah. And, and so then it makes it difficult for people who are actually processing and wrestling with some of these things to even know who to talk to. Yeah. Um, and even know, because, because it's assumed that you start, you know, things like, yeah, we we're gonna get into some specifics, but if you start questioning some things of your faith that you're automatically headed toward, uh, where, where like, um, is it Michael gun or like some, some of the popular singers, Josh Harris SADD, like some of these more, a popular Christian or formerly Christian artists, preachers speakers who are now like, don't identify as Christian anymore.
Speaker 0 00:14:13 I dunno. You, you had your thoughts. Like what, where, where are you coming at from this conversation and what would you change of what I said or, yeah, I, um, I resonate a lot with that. Um, I like, like one thing, one thing that I've kind of been processing, like the reality, you know, people talk about how it's, it's a new phenomenon. It's, it's a new fad, you know, EV everyone's doing it. My whole timeline is deconstructing or ever. And, and I get why people say that. I think part of the reason for that is because suddenly, now people have language to put to something that has been happening for centuries. Um, but especially probably that has been happening for the last couple of decades. Um, I think, I think we knew, we knew that particularly millennials and younger generations were leaving the church, as in at least the, the structured church.
Speaker 0 00:15:24 Um, you know, Barna has been talking about this different, different people have been writing about this for, you know, for the last couple of decades. Um, and, and so that tells me that, that the deconstruction process, as I know, it has been happening for a while. Um, but we didn't have Facebook and Twitter and we didn't specifically have like a broad understanding of, of de of the language of deconstruction. And I, and I, I don't think, I think we, I think we're still a little bit tied down to that word a little bit too much, and I would love to see us use some more, um, specific terms. But, um, but yeah, I think, I think for me the, the process, I, I don't remember when I first heard the term deconstruction. Um, but it, it was, it was kind of like in, I think it was like 20, 20, maybe 2019 where I first started was like, man, maybe, maybe I am, or maybe I can identify with this more than I thought.
Speaker 0 00:16:36 But then I think it was in 2020 where I first articulated, you know, I think I've been de deconstructing for a few years. Um, and, and like language that I would've used in my early teens is maybe, you know, I'm going through like a spiritually dry period or like I'm, uh, um, I'm, I'm wrestling with doubts. Like those are all things that I, I was doing. I was just talking to you about the book tables and the wilderness by Preston. Y it was a book I read came out in 2014. It was a book I read couple of years after it came out. Probably Preston or Phillip Preston. Y did I say Philip? No. Philip Beyonce is the other YY. This is the first, the first time you told me it was Philip. Did I say Philip? Yeah. Yeah, no, they're two very different people.
Speaker 0 00:17:25 <laugh> okay. Sorry. Um, that's why, that's why I chuckled because I've gotten them mixed up before. Um, pre Preston has written like two books maybe. Um, but he wrote, he wrote about his own faith journey in essentially he didn't use this language, but he deconstructed, like, I think conservative baptism, and now he's like Anglican or something. I'm not sure where exactly he's at, but, um, but I remember reading that in like 2015 or 16 and really resonating with it because I was, I had all these struggles in doubts about my faith and like, why wasn't I experiencing certain things? And I think in that process, I was moving towards more charismatic settings where there was maybe more of a promise of experiencing spirituality. And then, and then, I mean, that's oversimplifying it, but, um, it's kind of a summarization. And then, and then that ended up being kind of her full and disappointing and turned out to not be really what I was looking for.
Speaker 0 00:18:37 And, um, so, so like, I, I guess I just say all that to, to say that, like, I don't think this is a new phenomenon. I think the term deconstruction has been pop in the last couple of years, but, but I, I think the processes that people are going through are actually common to history and common to man. Um, I remember talking to Eric Miller, um, who I, I think you've had, have you had him on yeah, yeah. At him. He, um, I, I think it was soon after it was soon after Josh Harris or somebody, maybe it was a more recent person deconverted and like publicly announced it. And, and I was asked, so like, what do you think about this? Um, we happened to be in person, um, at a conference and he just didn't seem super phased by it and was just like, this is, you know, this is people have left the faith since the beginning, you know, since Jesus mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 00:19:42 And that was, that was really profound for me to, to think through that. And it's like, okay, like, this is, this is actually something that happened throughout history is that people have wrestled with the faith and left the faith. Um, and I don't have to be like freaked out about it and like, try to protect everybody that I love, cuz it's it's, I mean, we don't like it, but it it's kind of probably just gonna happen. Um, and, and so then to me, the question becomes, how do I walk with people and how do I myself walk through these journeys? Obviously, if, if we love Jesus and believe in like the basic tenants of Christianity, we're gonna care about people and want them to like find freedom and find security in. But like, it, it, I guess it changes rather than being this protective thing.
Speaker 0 00:20:40 I don't want anyone to deconstruct because I don't want them to leave the faith. It becomes a thing of like, I want people to genuine. And how can we do that? I guess. I dunno. I feel like I was kinda rambling there a little bit. I don't know if I, yeah, no, that's good. There's a couple things that, that you brought up that, that I wanted to kind of touch on. Maybe I'll highlight three before we get going further. Um, one, one of 'em is just to emphasize again that yes, the word deconstruction has been popularized to, to be identified with something pretty specific today. Uh mm-hmm <affirmative> and even, and even today, like, there's, there's a particular way. People who talk about those who deconstruct, they mean something by that. And then there's people who actually say I'm deconstructing, who means something and it's not usually the same thing.
Speaker 0 00:21:32 Um, sometimes someone say, it says I'm deconstructing and they, they end up deconvert and that's usually what people who talk about those who deconstruct are referring to, like, as if they're told walking away from the faith, but that's not near what everybody means, um, who is actually in the process of doing that or, or would self-identify as like, yeah, I'm I'm deconstructing or something. Um, and so I think that's, I just raise that to anybody hearing that term, like before you get bristled, if you get bristled yeah. Recognize that you're probably thinking of a definition for that term. That's fairly narrowed. And so just ask, ask more questions. Yeah. Get to know, get to know the person you're talking to, or, or whoever you're talking about. Like actually get to know that person as, as a person, even if it's someone you may never meet personally, like go read what they're writing about, talking about, don't just follow somebody who creates caricatures of, of the people, even the Joshua Harris's that, you know, obviously I, I do not, I personally have unfollowed from Facebook.
Speaker 0 00:22:49 Um, there's another, there's an author that I really like to work just as what he talked about as, as a writer and, and I followed him for years and he has pretty much done the same thing. He got a divorce and, and, uh, and is just like, man, it, it was just gut wrenching because I really liked his work. But now it's so infiltrated with kind of this more, uh, toxic mixture of just not just questions, but like actually trying to reframe, uh, the life in general and even like, kind of just excuse any need for Jesus. And so, so I unfollowed him, you know, it's, it's, um, not that he, he was even that overtly Christian in, in what he wrote about before, but yeah, there's my point is that there, there are people out there who are primarily talking about people and, and then there are people out there who listen to those people and not actually engaging the, the person themselves to see what they're talking about or what they're doing.
Speaker 0 00:24:00 Yeah. And sometimes that's a more public figure that you'll never meet personally. Sometimes that's a close friend right next to you, and it's always best just to get to know them and, and hear how they're using the term. The, uh, the other thing that I thought about, um, I knew I was gonna forget it with what you were talking about. I think this is what I was thinking. Um, is that a lot of, like, if we grow up in a place that in a community and environment where, where you're not exposed to many different types of world views, many different perspectives on life, this could be anything like, it doesn't have to be in inherently Christian, but even within the C in community, if, if we're not exposed to other Christians who just simply disagree with us on so theology, but in, in a way that we recognize that they are filled with the spirit of God, they're, they're, uh, life giving Christians.
Speaker 0 00:25:10 If we grow up in a very narrowed environment, we will, I mean, this is true. Even, even if we grow up in a broad environment yeah. And we face something new, like we will kind of deconstruct and, and reconsider like, oh, I hadn't bumped into this before, but it's all the more amplified when you come from a narrow community. And so sometimes our, our, um, our default, or like the way we try to solve all of this is by constricting the conversation. And you're actually perpetuating what could turn into deconversions by doing that, rather than walking down the road with them a little bit, and being the person, talking with them through that, if you are, if, if you're kind of bristled and you're like wanting to make sure that we're headed to particular end, and you're not willing to just kind of walk down the mystery of like, Hey, I don't know where all these questions are coming from, but you're asking the questions right now and I'm gonna interact with you on them.
Speaker 0 00:26:08 We, we actually are most likely perpetuate or like speeding up the process of what could lead to de conversion. Yeah. And so, like, I, I think that's what a lot of, yeah, there's, there's a lot of people who are, who come from more traditional or conservative backgrounds. I wouldn't say we necessarily came from super traditional or conservative backgrounds. Yeah. But we did still live in a world where one particular narrative of theology was predominant and not, it's like, Hey, I, I completely hold to a more AAP theology. Um, I, I I'm okay with, with identifying that, you know, what of, as I do theological study, I kind of fall more in this camp personally. Yeah. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that, but there's books, there's people that I converse with, didn't read to, um, to interact with and try to challenge my own thoughts and presuppositions and stuff.
Speaker 0 00:27:19 And, and so that's kind of what I'm talking about or what I think we are talking about with that. And then the, the third thing I was gonna discuss is you, you mentioned more specific terms and here a few days ago on Facebook, you had actually thrown out some, some other terms. Um, you said some alternative language that may help to clarify the broad category of de construction, this assembling intentional examination, investigating reevaluation, spotlighting, revealing, dismantling, methodical, deconversion questioning doubting. Did you have more thoughts behind that or, or is that so, yeah, I, um, that, that's actually an I idea that came from that was inspired, but I didn't necessarily exactly come from, but it was inspired by the hell, um, dialogical debate that happened at the exiles on Babylon conference. Oh, okay. Um, press and sprinkles theology in the raw conference that we were, we both attended, um, which is where we got our sweatshirt I'm matching switches.
Speaker 0 00:28:29 Um, so is not intentional to wear them today, but the, um, the first guy, the eternal concert, torment guy went over all of the views of hell. And he, I think he basically did three broad categories, which is the ones that you hear mostly converse, you know, universalism, internal, conscious, torment type things. I forget what he called them for sure. But then like a conditional imortality annihilationism type perspective of hell. And then underneath those, he had like sub genres of hell and like, and so I, I realized like that's a completely fair way to frame hell in the, in the sense of like, we tend to think, oh, eternal, conscious, torment, you guys all think this, you know, thing about God when there's actually a lot of nuance between the different ways people view the eternal consciousness of people suffering. And there's a, there's a really broad view of universalism as well.
Speaker 0 00:29:33 Like there's anyways, there, there were like a dozen sub genres of, of hell. And I thought you could, you know, the same thing is kind of going on in the deconstruction debate in that we're using this binary of like, you're either decon converting, or you're a faithful Christian. And like, you, you can't be, there's no room for like doubt or whatever. And in reality, if someone's saying they're deconstruct, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're decon converting. It also doesn't necessarily mean that they want to deconvert. It also doesn't necessarily mean that they, that, that they don't want to. Deconvert like, like there's all of these different people. And so I was trying to come up with language to describe what so, like there's some people who may want to deconvert from the outset and either some people might just jump there right away and just be like, I'm out.
Speaker 0 00:30:34 Some people may go through the process of like, I should figure this out first, but I, I'm not really interested in Christianity. There's some people who may want to deconvert, but are in an environment where it's socially unacceptable to deconvert. And so they're like in a slow, like easing their way out, but then there's some people who may end up deconvert but are trying to hold on to faith. And for whatever reason, it's tough. There's some people that may be like, I would fall in this camp of where I really, really like, I really like Jesus, and I really want to figure it out, but like, there's a lot of questions and a lot of like disappointed expectations and pain. And, and then like, sometimes I get caught up in like, like, you know, the details of, of like, is this true? And how do I know it's true and how can I ever know it?
Speaker 0 00:31:32 You know? And so what I am needing to do is like, I get it, that deconstruction is, sounds like destruction. Like, it sounds like just the word itself probably gives people pause, because it sounds like you're just taking a sledgehammer. Um Hmm. But usually if, even in the real world, if you don't typically refer to like a house being deconstructed, like usually that you call it demolition or something yeah. You call it demolition or destruction. Usually deconstruction implies in my mind, like a kind of a methodical piece by piece, like, like that. Um, wasn't it grandpa's our, our grandpa's barn that like, they basically took down piece by piece. Maybe that wasn't his, maybe somebody else's, but like I've heard of, I've heard of houses. He saved lots of nail. Yeah. Definitely say lots of nails, but I, I think we, we actually have a, have friends in Minnesota who they built their house by deconstructing a building from town.
Speaker 0 00:32:39 They, and, and their payment was that they were allowed to keep all of the, the parts. Um, have you heard this story? Yeah, I don't wanna say. Okay. Okay. Um, and, and so they, they methodically took it all apart and then went and build their house out of those mat. And that's in my mind, that's more, what I see going on. It might not be a perfect picture, but like, it's this idea where you're not, you're not wanting to destroy it. You don't wanna just like rip things apart and like take a sledgehammer, but you are dissembling it. Um, and I think so, so that you can look at it and you can see, okay, there's rot over here. We're gonna throw that away. And you know, we're gonna save this just from a Liu linguistic standpoint. That's actually the, the most proper use of the term.
Speaker 0 00:33:34 Yeah. Like to, to, to assume that it's means destruction is actually not to yeah. To misunderstand what the, the word altogether, go ahead and finish. So I was in the middle of a swallow, so I really hate it when people swallow on podcast. Yeah. <laugh> um, no, no. Yeah. Like that. So the dissembling, maybe someone prefers an intentional examination. Like, like I, I was told by a mentor figure. He wasn't like a full-time mentor or whatever, but I was at a Bible Bible school and he was a professor there. And he literally told me to, to sometime in my, you know, solitude to write down everything that I believe to list down. Okay. I, you know, I believe in God, I believe in Jesus. I, and, and to be specific, like, I'm kind of being broad, but to be specific, I believe that Jesus is the son of God.
Speaker 0 00:34:37 And, and he told me to list all of those things down. And then I think he probably specifically said, you know, look to scripts sure. And figure out why you believe those things. Um, but, but I, I would also, you know, take it broader and like, say, yeah, look to scripture. But then if you're, if you're wrestling with whether or not you believe scripture, you're also gonna need like more, you know, external reasons also for why you think scripture is a valid authority. But, um, but basically to say, like, I think he was basically teaching me how to deconstruct, even though I, I imagine he would probably reject that term. I don't know. It's been years since I've talked to him, but, um, and so intentional examination, maybe someone prefers that language, um, internalization is another one. Yeah. Yeah. And it basically, it refers to the process, whatever you identify with more, it refers to the process of like taking, taking your faith and then examining, okay.
Speaker 0 00:35:46 What are these specific things that I believe, why do I believe them? Is it right that I believe them, is it good that I believe them? Or, or is it actually, you know, perpetuating harm or whatever, you know, there's a lot of questions we, we would need to ask. Um, and so, sorry. Yeah, go ahead. No, no, I was, I was just gonna say, and so, so like I was just trying to come up. There's actually other ones that I've thought of later, like decolonization could be one. Um, well, yeah. Another word that, that refers to the process that's going on. Yeah. I mean, the re the reality is like de deconstruction is what you said to like, to construct something is to build something, to deconstruct. It is to take it down and it's not to demolish it. That's a completely different word. And there's many different things that lead someone to take it down or to pull it apart and see, like I used to do handyman work.
Speaker 0 00:36:48 And a lot of my handyman work would be like, oh, there's a leak. Or there's something going on behind the wall there. And so I'd, I'd have to, I'd have to tear it apart. And obviously if it's something in a wall when it goes to the drywall, like I'm gonna be tearing that apart, but I don't just like start cutting in through wires and studs and all of that. Like, I'm gonna methodically, like there is an aspect that I'm tearing in and I'm gonna have to yeah. Put, put a patch back in, but, but I'm very carefully trying to find what what's causing the problem and you know, what might be the way forward. Um, and so we we're going through life and we bump into, it might be bumping into a new perspective. It might be having doubts about God. It might be learning a fuller representation of history where we realize we benefit from colon across the world.
Speaker 0 00:37:42 And so then we're trying to grapple with like, what, what is a better representation of history, which then affects how, because of how much theology has been influenced by white Western theology, whether we're talking Western European to all the way here to America, um, like any number of the, or maybe it could be a death of a loved one, or your parents getting divorced, or like you having tremendous passion and excitement for something. And then one day waking up and it feels gone. And you're wondering what happened to that, where, so there's all kinds of things that lead us to begin. You kind of tear through the drywall in there and you start inspecting, like what's going on? What, what happened here? Um, and it's interesting. I was just reading like the, the definition on dictionary.com for deconstruction is it's a philosophical and critical movement starting in the 1960s and especially applied to the study of literature, that questions all traditional assumptions about the ability of language to represent reality and emphasizes that a text has no stable reference or identification, because words essentially only refer to other words.
Speaker 0 00:38:55 And therefore a reader must approach a text by eliminating any metaphysical or ethnocentric assumptions through an active role of defining meaning sometimes by a reliance on new word, construction, etymology, puns, and other word play. That's actually, why's a lot, but this is a lot, it's a lot. It, um, it, it really, I, I think does a really good job of, of grasping what's actually happening here. Yeah. So essentially words refer to other words and wor the meanings of words are shaped by, by, um, our, like how we under understand, you know, metaphysical meanings and our cultural in interpretations or definitions of those words. So, uh, you know, this is just a very basic example. Um, in some parts of the country pop means a, a sweet drink that's carbonized that you, that you drink in other parts of the country pop means like the sound something went pop.
Speaker 0 00:40:03 Yeah. Um, and so it's a word, and it's referring to other words, so sweet drink, carbonized, like that's other words pop is referring to those, um, the sound something went pop like an explosion or a, you know, a, a, a gunshot <laugh>. Yeah. I don't know what you might descri, or, uh, you go over your riding bike and you go over a nail and it goes pop, like you're referring to other descriptors, other words, and we're all meaning something different based on our context. So, so we can't as assume that words that we're using in a conversation are meant the way I immediately assume so to intentionally define meaning. And sometimes we define meaning by relying on new word construction, which is really, really good, because is there's some people who do not like any introduction of like new language or new terms. Um, yeah, they, they would say things that like, that's you, that leads you to believe that people are trying to push a new agenda by introducing new terms.
Speaker 0 00:41:20 And it's true that one way to push an agenda is to introduce new terms, but it's also true that to better understand what we're talking about, right. We sometimes need to introduce new terms. And so we can't just assume that one thing is happening. Um, so another way we define, or another thing we need to define intentionally define is meaning, and then, um, etymology, which is like the, the construction of a word, uh, and other word play. Yeah. And so, like, obviously that's specifically talking about literature, but that's very much what's going on with faith as well. And like, what are we talk? Like, I find it interesting that you would've used language, like doubts for some of the things now say you're deconstructing. Um, because I was your older brother at the time where you were talking about doubts <laugh> and doubts to me was something much bigger than what I deconstruct, like things that I deconstruct.
Speaker 0 00:42:34 So I don't know. I don't know if that means, like, I, I, I wouldn I, I would feel free saying I'm deconstructing complementarianism right now. Sure. But I'm not doubting like the, the biblical view of marriage or like the, uh, the, or, or even definitely not doubting whether God is real and stuff like that. So I'm curious, just as kind of like, we, we haven't ever talked about this before, but I'm curious, are you saying that your doubts back then were doubts of specific definitions for, you know, obviously you weren't thinking of the role of marriage or like the men and women's roles, or are you saying that your deconstruction is involved was like bigger questions about God and, and, and faith in general. Yeah. Um, that is a good question. I couple thoughts. Um, I think, I think it might depend on when you ask me <laugh>, but like, I, I do think it has involved some of those questions.
Speaker 0 00:43:44 Um, and I wanna come back to that, but maybe a better way to say it is that when I was struggling with just this nebulous, like doubt, like, um, struggle with my faith where it's like, why, you know, why can't I, um, you know, where, where did my, you know, so like my journey in, like, in my mid to late teens, I feel like it was some of the most intense, spiritual fervor that I ever had. And then that fervor just kind of disappeared. <affirmative>. And, and so there was this season of like 17, 18, 19, well, maybe more 18, 1920s, where I, I was, it was like, where did that fervor go? Like, like, it was still there, but like just slowly fading. And I was like, where is it going? Why? Like, I'm doing all this praying and fasting and where is it going? I think that's the best way to describe my season of doubt.
Speaker 0 00:44:53 And, and maybe a better way to describe it is that I should have deconstructed rather than just like trying to like, read, read more scripture and spend more time in prayer. Not saying those are bad things, but maybe a I would've been better off if I would've been able to like, sit down and deconstruct. Okay. What do I believe about, like, what, what does it mean to be a Christian? What does it mean to follow Jesus? What is, and not saying that I didn't do these things, I'm sure I did these things, but I, maybe I would've been better off if I would've done it much more methodically. Um <affirmative> but it go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say, like, just to, to paint a little context, like you, you have actually been like, I'm the one in Bible college now, but you have more methodically, like read scripture and like a lot than I did before Bible college, um, you would do the 90 day, I forget what it's called, read the Bible in 90 days or whatever.
Speaker 0 00:46:02 Um, and, and you would do specific things. And so it's, it's been interesting in life, like to watch, watch, um, you wrestle with some doubts when it in, like, if, if like sometimes the, the trite responses, there's just a press into God's word, or, you know, spend, spend more time with God, um, that, that can actually, and maybe you want to flesh that out a little bit more, but you know, that depending on what the kind of base questions you're wrestling with that may actually cause more questions and more yeah. Frustration. And I'm not at all suggesting that, oh, so the solution is to not do that. Yeah. I'm suggesting the solution is to walk with somebody through that process of asking those questions rather than just, and yeah. Spend more time in God's word or something. I don't know. What do you, what do you think?
Speaker 0 00:47:02 Well, and no, I think, I think you're right. And, and there's also the dynamic of like, I was struggling with depression, you know, I was struggling with grief. You, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative> my, you know, when I was 16, our mom was killed suddenly. And, and I think I was also dealing with like physical trauma yeah. From not only that grief, but also from our accident that like only six to eight years later. Am I realizing, you know, I actually, I probably have some physical trauma from that accident. Um, and your, your, your body does remember stuff like that. Yeah. And it'll, yeah, like it, yeah, the, the body keeps the scores kind of, I started reading it and then quit reading <laugh> cause it was too hard. Um, which probably indicates that it's right. Um, I, I don't know. I sh I, I, I don't, I wanna down, I wanna downplay my trauma because like, I know people like, especially the body keeps score, you know, deals with much greater trauma, but, um, but, but any anyways, like, so I, so like, I think for people, the, like, there's also a lot more than just like intellectual and emotion.
Speaker 0 00:48:22 Well, yeah. A lot more things than just intellectual things going on. There's also real trauma, either like physical things that someone has gone through or spiritual abuse. I mean, the moment you enter in like a, like a PA like a pastor, someone in authority using either the Bible or spiritual language, or just their spiritual authority or their position in church to manipulate or abuse, or in any way, like harm you then wrestling through faith becomes so incredibly messy because, because just the act of opening up scripture could trigger trauma, like could trigger trauma responses and, and, and not so much. Yeah, not so much because of necessarily what the scripture says, but because of how the scripture was like, who, who used it and, and the agenda they were kind of trying to bring about in you through using it. Yeah. Yeah. That, that can be really difficult for someone who's experienced that to sort it through, because it could feel like the things that are being said is what you're ha you know.
Speaker 0 00:49:41 Yeah. Like you're reading scripture and you're having all these emotions. And you're wondering why the answer could be as simple as, you know, scripture was used to abuse you, but it, it might not seem that clear because they haven't been able to process through all of it or haven't been given space or whatever, you know? Well, and someone using scripture for spiritual abuse or manipulation is gonna use passages that seem to make yeah. Their point. They're just gonna leave out all the other passages that contradict the way they're using it or the, the point they're trying to make. And so, yeah, it, it will look like scripture actually says that, and that is very triggering or something. Yeah. Yeah. So like, like there was, there was a lot going on in my heart and mind and soul that, you know, people probably aren't thinking when, when they, when they hear people who are critical of people deconstructing, apparently aren't like all of the different things that may be contributing to their, to the struggle of, of deconstruction, the struggle of why is it so hard to believe and why is it so hard to just, you know, read more scripture and whatever, like, like, you know, I, I think about different friends of mine who have, who are deconstructing or have deconstructed or, or in that genre of journey that like, when I think through their stories, like they, they have spiritual trauma.
Speaker 0 00:51:19 Like, I, I, I, I, I would be very careful. I, I maybe shouldn't phrase it so assertively because that's, you know, for them in, in a counselor, in their, you know, immediate community to like process through. But like, just from my perspective, I wouldn't be surprised if, if they have spiritual trauma. And so then they move into a new situation where they're still trying to get close to Jesus, and they're moving into this new community and they have these struggles and these doubts and these triggers and, and like things. And this new community is like, well, just read scripture more. And, and, and then it's just like this whole thing of like, you don't understand, and they might not even be able to articulate what is going on, cuz they might not even entirely know themselves that they have trauma. Yeah. Um, and so like, that's a whole aspect of it that I see a lot, even, you know, I follow a bunch of different Christians on Twitter, who, who I see deconstruction happening through.
Speaker 0 00:52:24 And a lot of their stories involve some sort of spiritual abuse, maybe actual like spiritual abuse is that actual abuse, but like maybe physical sexual, some sort of abuse that's going on. And like these stories are not like, you can't just answer those, you know, that pain with, you know, read more scripture, spend more time in prayer. Yeah. Um, and that like it, the, the dichotomy that's that always presented is as though, like, for you to say, you can't just answer with read more scripture or spend more time in prayer. People think you're saying Jesus isn't enough. And like, yeah, Jesus is sufficient. Well, no, it's not, it's not at all. What is saying, um, reading scripture and spending time in prayer is a medium are encountering Jesus. And sometimes, uh, mm-hmm <affirmative> according to scripture, one of the, the primary ways for encountering Jesus is by having brothers and sisters come along and bear a burden with you and walk with you mm-hmm <affirmative> and just sit with you in your grief or in your, your questions.
Speaker 0 00:53:34 And so, yeah, like I, I think you're absolutely right in that Mo two things. One is most people who are deconstructing something there's something else going on, um, that is just making it effect. So maybe they were in an accident, maybe they lost a loved one. Maybe they just came through a hard yeah. Breakup where it seemed like all get out, God had answered all the signs of, of you're supposed to pursue this person for marriage. And it didn't turn out that way. Or, um, maybe you, you, uh, felt led of God to enter a ministry or start a ministry mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and then it fell apart. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> maybe, maybe I know, uh, one, one of the things that I I have wrestled with is Christianity is called to a ministry of reconciliation. Yeah. <affirmative> and I have been caught in the middle of several, um, conflicts among people I love and respect and longing for there to be reconciliation.
Speaker 0 00:54:37 And, um, some, some of those major ones I have yet to see any form of reconciliation. Yeah. And so why, like, why, why doesn't that happen? Is that yeah. Is that not like it's those kinds of things that lead to a, a beginning to reexamine? Like what was I understanding or what was I looking at? And so it's not enough to just say, go read scripture or go spend time in prayer because you, you were, we were doing that and we have a human experience that has now challenged the conclusions that we came away from our time in prayer from our time in God's word. And so now we're trying, now we need someone to process all of that with. Um, and so the other thing is, so there's other things going on that lead to deconstruction. But the other thing is of the people that I know who have gone through deconstruction or who really wrestle with doubt faith, they're usually some of the most hungry and wanting, like wanting. Um, and it's actually leads me to, I, I made a, a question earlier about in our relationship. I would see you as someone who's maybe a little more okay. Being in mystery. I don't know if that's true or not. Um, but I, but I also think in my journey, like I think if I,
Speaker 0 00:56:13 Like, I just, haven't some, some of the faith questions that you've had or others close to me have had, I just haven't had, and I, I, I cannot pinpoint a specific, like, you know, I, I definitely feel the story of scripture is amazing and beautiful. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and is the number one reason why I continue to come back to scripture and, and mm-hmm <affirmative> and follow Jesus, but it's not like that is, is what saved away, all doubts and, and questions. I just, I just haven't had them for some reason. And, and so I don't know if I'm trying to figure out how to articulate what I'm saying. Um, like some people who end upconverting almost strike me as not actually being okay with mystery. Like sometimes it's framed that like, oh, we need to just be okay with mystery. Not everything is easy to answer.
Speaker 0 00:57:13 Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but sometimes it can feel like the people who walk away are actually like really, they need something certain and their way of solving the mystery was just to completely rewrite the story and say, that doesn't exist. Is that true? Or is it like, how, what is the role of, I, I, I think like, it, it's difficult to talk in, um, to, to talk about those scenarios, because primarily who we're referring to are like the famous ones. And so like people we haven't actually right. Talked with and walked with. Yeah. Um, I mean, there, there are a couple who I'm thinking of that I have had conversations with. They're not yeah. Just famous, but I don't you're right. I don't know them real, super closely and don't know the whole of their story. I think that I like, I, I think you, your observation seems to be true in, in, in a general sense.
Speaker 0 00:58:20 Um, like, like I've, I've thought about it, like, like it would be, it would be foolish for me. I'm I'm sure people are gonna freak out to hear me say this, but it would be foolish for me to say that there is no chance that I would de convert and <laugh>, I've, I've talked to Kimberly, Kimberly and I have both talked about this. Um, and may, maybe this is too private of thoughts to put publicly, but I'm, I'm just saying, like, I, I just, I don't know how one can, can, could stand there and say like, there's no way that I'll ever deconvert like, that's just, I don't know. It seems like an unnecessary assertion to say, just to, to clarify that you're saying that because there are questions you bumped into as a 25 year old that you, you didn't realize you would ask as a 19 year old.
Speaker 0 00:59:16 Exactly. Yeah. That kinda, yeah. So like, so, so the, the idea that there's no question in the future that could, again unsettle me, or there's no like trauma or pain or experience that I could go through, that would finally just be like, I don't care. I'm just gonna give up it's but so let me counter all that by saying it is very hard for me to ever imagine, not believing in God, not believing in a higher power. Like, I don't even, I don't even know how to do that. Other than to just live in willful dis I'm gonna say disobedience, but like willful, like, uh, you know, I kind of believe in you, but I'm not gonna follow you type thing. Like that's, that's the only thing I can envision the only way I, I would live. Um, anyways, all that to say that if someone would see, like, let's say I go through like a Josh Harris experience and something in my thirties totally sets me off.
Speaker 0 01:00:21 Cause I'm not 30 yet. And totally disillusions me. And like every community of Christians that I've seen, ever seen just totally disappoints. And it turns out they're complete frauds and I hit my forties and I've deconverted for someone to look at me and say, you've ne you've, you must have never really struggled with the truth or like really struggle, struggled through the faith would, would be a pretty, would be a pretty, pretty hard slap in the face to like who I was in my teens and who I am now. Like, does that make sense? Um, because there's all that struggle and that journey and the tears and the frustrations and the conversations and the books and the writings. And, um, it, it, you know, all of those mm-hmm <affirmative> things that I've gone through are, have been genuine. And, um, and anyways, I forget exactly what I was responding to, but, but BA basically this, this idea that, um,
Speaker 0 01:01:39 If like, I think if I would deconvert now, whatever, just people are just gonna have to be okay with the, the awkward, uncomfortable tension of that statement. But if I were to deconvert now where I am now, it would be because I'm tired of the struggle, but that's just me like that's that's. Um, and I, and I would, I would not want anyone listening and I'm sure there will be people listening to this who, who could even feel hurt by that. Um, because that wasn't their story. And so I want to give room for people who genuinely deconvert and, and people might not understand what that means, but like, they genuinely feel like they've assessed everything and they cannot believe in the Bible or in God. Um, but for me, if I were to deconvert now, it would be because I'm just tired of all the questions.
Speaker 0 01:02:42 I'm tired of Christians, I'm tired of. Um, and honestly, like, I don't think that would solve my struggle. Like, I, I feel like I have a nature that just like is always struggling <laugh> and, and that's probably some of the, but a lot of that, a lot of that is be, is because like, there's things I need to emotionally work through, like, like there's pain in my past that actually, it feels maybe like it has to do with God, but it actually has just more to do with like processing pain and trauma. Yeah. I, uh, I have like, there's our other brother, Marcel, who we should have pulled into this conversation as well. Um,
Speaker 0 01:03:34 It's really awkward. Well, it's really awkward to have on a podcast. I'll edit it out. <laugh> as you listen to this, we should had you. Yeah. Um, no, some something Marcel has often said, and I don't know if this is original with him, but he said it enough that it sort of feels like it is, but yeah, if we're in a season of doubts and let, let me back up just to say, um, if, if you haven't caught on already, like, I, we both, we all hear are very hesitant, very nervous about when someone's doubting or deconstructing or wrestling with something that we like sometimes answers can be like, um, pigeon holes, almost like, uh, yeah. Uh, I'm trying, trying to think of an example where, you know, like, oh, our church is having conflict. And so we're thinking of leaving. It's just a lot of conflict and there's always conflict and well, you know, so, and so's church, like they always have conflict too, and it's, it's sort of a pigeon hole that keeps you trapped rather than thinking through like the particular conflict you're having and, and like the way in which you're having this conflict.
Speaker 0 01:04:51 And is this a toxic environment or something that should be you removed yourself from, or can you actually be a positive influence in it? Um, it's just like just the reality of conflict existing out there somehow traps you into staying here. Um, sometimes, and I think sometimes I have given answers like that in, in the, uh, you know, the, the lack of like I find absolutely no compelling explanation for the problem of pain in any other religion that I've read about. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, it's, it's very depressing to be honest. And I don't understand everything in the Christian faith and where is God in some of the times of disappointment, but it gives like, I, you know, if you would've asked me five years ago, this would've been a little bit more of a shallow answer. And I, I'm quite certain that if you ask me five years from now, I'll have an even deeper answer.
Speaker 0 01:05:52 But the more I read broadly about other faiths and other traditions of grappling with pain and like the problem of, of chaos in the world, like the more I'm just gripped with not only does the, the biblical narrative define it well, but it also offers hope for navigating through it. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and so what, what am I saying with all that? Oh, just that I don't, like, I don't intend that to be a pigeon hole, like, yeah. Oh, don't, you know, you're not gonna find an answer to pain out there. Um, that's just, that's where I'm at. I'm settled. That's why you are a Christian. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I'm willing if there's, if I have a friend he's really wrestling with Christianity, because he's a Christian and he's been doing all these Christian things, he was pouring in the service of God.
Speaker 0 01:06:49 He's prayed, he's read his Bible and he's still experiencing just an onslaught of trauma. Like I'm not gonna blame him for wrestling with that. Or even like exploring alternative faith since, um, yeah, here again, we're getting into dicey. Yeah. Territory. Not because I think it's, you can go however you want. It would grieve me. It grieves me. There is a friend of mine, um, not super close, but, um, but a friend who I've had conversation with an acquaintance who has recently pretty much deconverted for that reason. And it, it really grips my heart. And probably because that's one of the main reasons why I am a Christian, um, is, is because of the story, like the story of God and how it explains that. Um, and so I pray, I pray for those people and I, I continue to be their friend and walk with them and, and I wanna to be that, not that I can perfectly answer everything, but if, if I'm the only Christian voice in their life, as they explore some alternative faith, I, I wanna be there. I don't wanna insist that you come to my conclusion and therefore jeopardize, like walking with you on that.
Speaker 0 01:08:04 Yeah. Having said all of that, one of the questions that Marcel has often or statements Marcel has often made is that in, when you're in a season of doubt, you should also doubt your doubts. Yeah. Like if you, like, sometimes we can, in a season of doubt, we can ha think we have authority in our doubts. And like, that's, that doesn't even make logical sense if I'm, if I'm doubting things right now, I ought to be willing to be skeptical of even my doubts. Yeah. And, and the that's something that I have, I think that's just a good reminder, a good posture, not only in a season of doubting faith, but just in general, in a season of, you know, we should kinda, the flip side is when we're feeling really confident on something, we should probably be willing to inspect, inspect that as well.
Speaker 0 01:08:54 Yeah. Um, because we could, <affirmative> always at any time be wrong. Well, any, any time. And I think this is partly why people have a hard time saying they were wrong, but anytime you realize that, oh, I was wrong about that thing that I was very confident about before. That should really humble you. And <affirmative>. Um, and so the idea that, that I had this like incredible confidence before, I'm not saying people should be like unconfident about themselves and like insecure all the time and that that's like a healthy place to be. But I'm saying if you were really confident about this thing over here, and now you're saying that you were wrong about that, I would think that very, the very existence of that acknowledgement should then make you more humble about any new position that you take, um, because you could be wrong about that as well.
Speaker 0 01:09:54 Um, and, and I'm just, I'm just, okay. <laugh> I, I just, I just feel okay with, it's saying I could be wrong about this. I feel very strongly. And, you know, these are the reasons why mm-hmm <affirmative>, but like, I could be wrong about this. Um, and I just that's that assumption like is behind everything I say. Um, Hmm. Yeah. And it's not, it's not a lot lack of assurance. Like I think sometimes there's people out there who are really, you know, they see the solution to everything we're going through in the world right now is to, to become fixed on truth and like stand on truth and to be humble and acknowledge that my, my interpretation of the scripture, I, I believe the word of God is true, but I might be interpreting it wrong. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and saying something is like a clear truth that the word of God might not actually quite say it that way. Um, and so to be, just be humble about that and say, well, I could be wrong on that is, is to rightly is a part of rightly handling dividing the word of God, not to just become really dogmatic on our, our interpretation. I dunno. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:11:19 It, I mean, you could get into an important discussion about like, what is truth and how do you determine truth? And, and I feel like PE there's a lot of people who just wanna say, well, read the scriptures, but, but any reading of the scripture requires an interpretation of it. Um, and, and so if you, if you like any, like, yeah, I, I can stand on truth of scripture, but like, I'm, I'm not gonna stand here and say that my, my interpretation of scripture is infallible. Um, and that's why, that's why I really appreciate like a, like a what's the term, like a community hermaneutic or like a mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, the sense of where, like between you and the holy spirit and a community of brothers and sisters, you, you interpret scripture. Um, yeah. And you like strive to find truth or whatever. Well, and, and with that should always include the, the historical community as well.
Speaker 0 01:12:27 Right. Not just, yeah, yeah, yeah. The historical community. And, and, and obviously like, you know, if there's no one in your circle who understands Greek and, and Hebrew and whatever, like, like, to me, it, it, it seems like a no-brainer that you would go find someone who does, whether that's through a book or a podcast or a, a sermon, um, and, and may, you know, may yeah. Anyways, there's a whole rabbit hole we could go down, but yeah. Well, and, and we're also, yeah, there's, there's a whole conversation we could have about, uh, the epistemology and like learning. Yeah. Like how, how we derive truth, how we, how we know what is true. Um, the, the, it's also true that like, just as a work of literature, there's always a best interpretation of the tech. And so whether you're reading poetry, whether you're reading a book, I see your Bon Hoffer book on the back.
Speaker 0 01:13:27 Yeah. I was kind of embarrassed about that. Or <laugh>, it's, it's about the, oh yeah. It's about the only book that I can see for sure what it is. This is this used to be, it's kind of messed up now, but this you to be my, um, world war II kind of violent section. So obviously Bon Hoffer's gonna be in there. <laugh> this is a tale of two cities. This is a book about Louis Emini anyways. So that's why that's there. It's not a full endorsement. <laugh> a full endorse. Yeah. Anyways, I like, there's gonna be a bad re in order to understand what Eric Metis is trying to say about Bonoff for, there's gonna be one best rating of the text and the same is true for the scripture. Like there's, there is a best reading, the best way to read that there's multiple ways it could be read.
Speaker 0 01:14:18 And, um, and so that's what interpretation is. And I think sometimes, like we, part of what leads people to be a little dogmatic and what also leads people to deconstruction is when we kind of hinge our faith on particular interpretations of the Bible. Yeah. As opposed to our faith being in Jesus. Yeah. And in yawe as God and the, the compassionate, gracious God there's yeah. In Jesus has given us peace with God. Like, there's, there's a lot of interpretations that there are some things that I am fully okay with saying, this is what I believe the Bible says. I think it's quite clear on, but I'm also well aware of the fact that I might get to heaven one day. Yeah. And realize I was wrong. Yeah. And so, as we have that conversation, I'm not threatened by other perspectives. Um, you know, I'm, I'm thinking of, you know, the, the, the nature of salvation and exactly what is happening.
Speaker 0 01:15:32 Like are we being irresistibly drawn to God or are we responding? You know, some of those questions, uh, yeah. Anyways, what were you gonna say? Well, no, no. I was basically gonna give back caveat that like the, it, the problem doesn't lie in saying, Hey, like, I think, you know, I've, I've read about this. And, you know, just going off of the, the things that I have gathered, this seems to be the best interpretation, the, the problem hinges, um, when, when you say I could never be proven wrong, mm-hmm, <affirmative> like, like there's no amount of evidence that could dissuade me from that interpretation. It's one, like, it's one thing to say, it's one thing to say that based on all the evidence that I have accessible to me, this seems like the best interpretation is another thing to say. I could never be dissuaded from that.
Speaker 0 01:16:32 Do, do you, do you agree with that? Or, oh yeah. Yeah. I would, yeah. The not only isn't arrogant. Right. Um, I think it shows that your faith is like, I'm. I can, I can, holy say that I am like, Jesus is my, my rock. Like he is, I am saved by through Jesus. And, um, you know, I can be pretty dogmatic about Jesus as I'm trying to figure out a, a way to word it. Um, but if I, if I say that like, um, Jesus, you know, one want some debate is like, are we saved because of our obedience in following Jesus? Or are we saved because of Jesus's obedience and, and like, to, to hang my hat that be dogmatic about that, there is enough textual evidence in scripture that suggests both are at play. Like both are a component that, yes, I, I personally really believe in this might, some people might wonder, well, you just said, you're Anabaptist, lean theology.
Speaker 0 01:17:50 Um, like the, a, a lot of the new Testament talks about the faithfulness of Jesus, like E even the rendering of, of, um, uh, that passage and second Timothy, where he's like going through, um, if you deny him, he will deny you. Uh, but if you are, if you are faithless, he remains mm-hmm <affirmative>, I believe a better rendering is actually, if you are unfaithful, he remains faithful before he cannot deny himself. And, and that would be more consistent with the whole story as a whole, where Israel has been unfaithful mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and so like, just, but there's, there's very clearly, um, like within that passage, a call to obedience, into, uh, being, um, declaring Jesus as your Messiah and your need for Messiah in, in the public's, um, yeah. Sphere. So there's, there's a call to obedience, so I'm not gonna hang my hat on a interpretation of how I am saved in Jesus, but I am very dogmatic that Jesus is the only way the truth in life, like Moham is not that way, you know? Um, yeah.
Speaker 0 01:19:12 Yeah. And, and to be dogmatic about Jesus <affirmative> is a form of humility. I think, like, maybe I'm biased on that, but to recognize somebody outside of myself and outside of my own kind, my own human kind. Yeah. Um, yeah. It, yeah, I, I shouldn't say be dogmatic, but like to cling to Jesus. I, um, can I change the subject a little bit? Yeah. I, um, I think, I think a question that I really wrestle with is we touched on this a little bit, but more specifically, why do some people who, who really wrestle and like, give it, give it all they've got? And I can't, I can't determine whether they have or not. Um, but who seem to and have said that they really are wrestling. Like, why does God not show up for the them? Hmm. Because it, it feels like to, for sure to say like, well, I wrestled and I wrestled through the right way and I wrestled thorough.
Speaker 0 01:20:39 And you apparently didn't seems incredibly arrogant. Um, because, because, you know, I, I probably haven't seen all their tears and, and their emotions and like how hard they, they tried and I haven't seen all their experiences. Um, it also seems unhelpful. Um, and it, and it seems to encourage, like, this almost works orientation of like, well, if you wrestle hard enough, then Jesus will show up, um, especi, especially when God promises that those who seek him will find him. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, like, why didn't these people find God? And the one immediate caveat is that like, they're not dead. You know, <laugh> like, I, I tend to be very optimistic and this is maybe why I'm okay with people even deconvert. I mean, I, I say, I say that flippantly, um, but like, I, I hold more space for people on that journey just because it's like, you're not, you're not dead until you're dead.
Speaker 0 01:21:49 Like, um, people, just so many times you hear about people coming back to God that it's just like, if, if I would, I would rather have like, like, I, I guess this leads to something else that I, that I wrestle with is like, why people are so scared of people deconstructing, because, and, and, and I, I get it, I get that. Like, if, if you're holding onto faith, especially as a parent or an older sibling, or just a sibling in general, and you see someone who's maybe starting to deconvert or starting to go down, what looks like that path, it could hurt. It would be painful that they're rejecting something that you hold dear. Especially if you think they're gonna, you, you know, end up going through hell. Um, but, but, but there's also this sense of like, I like my response to that then is gentleness and compassion.
Speaker 0 01:22:51 Why would, why would you suddenly jump and be like, no, don't ask these questions. Don't go, you know, don't read these books, you know, cuz that seems much more like a, a, like a controlling response rather than a, like, I want you to genuinely find truth. Um, and like, why would you want someone to stay in the faith without actually wrestling through those doubts that they have? Cause those, those doubts and questions and whatever aren't gonna go away just by, you know, I kind of forget what <laugh> I was asking there. I kind of went done too rabbit. Oh, the, the thing of why do some people wrestle and find God and why do some people wrestle and not find God? Yeah. I think I, I really struggle with that. Yeah. Um, and then also why do people respond with more controlling tactics rather than gentleness?
Speaker 0 01:23:40 Yeah, I think I, I, I, those are really good question that I want to get to your first question, but just a quick response to the second one. Why people respond to controlling tactics? I think, um, I think, let me, let me speak more from myself when I have had that freaking out mm-hmm <affirmative> somebody is expressing outs and, and like going in direction that I I'm not, I don't want to go, um, that's almost always been because they're asking questions. I've never had mm-hmm <affirmative> um, mm-hmm <affirmative> or, and this is kind of the same thing, I guess, but I don't, I don't really know a good response right now. Like I don't, I don't know a response that is gonna just be convincing and, and bring it back mm-hmm <affirmative> um, whoever I'm talking to. So that's kind of the same, although like, there are things that I'm wrestling through that I have, I don't necessarily know the solution to yet, but I can have more empathy with someone who's also wrestling through it, just because I have that same question mm-hmm <affirmative> or I have that same.
Speaker 0 01:24:59 So if, if I don't have that question and if I don't know a, a convincing enough response, then I do freak out a little bit. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I also, I also think it's added when I can tell that that person is really struggling, um, you know, responding to somebody's questions. I get questions a lot via email or, or messenger about mm-hmm <affirmative> about a host of different things, but maybe about church, like, feel like giving up on church or, or some deeper about God and in faith and those don't evoke the emotion and quite like someone close to me looking me in the eyes and like talking about it and wrestling through. Um, so I forget what I was saying with that, but just it's, you know, I can see the, the pain that they're dealing with or going through to see it, that kind of freaks me out a little bit more as well as not having a convinced, seeing enough answer and maybe not having the same question.
Speaker 0 01:26:03 And so for myself, what I've learned is that when I feel that freaking I'm being in like that freaking out, like, oh, you know, where, where are you going? And, and a, a quickness to maybe kind of wanna jump in and, and like, just make sure that we're clear on like the parameters of salvation and like the certainties of God, like <affirmative>, do you know what I'm talking about? Mm-hmm <affirmative> like when that feeling kind of rises up mm-hmm <affirmative> and you wanna for sure. Make sure that we're, you know, not headed down some in that moment, I would just suggest anybody feeling that you're, you're being given an invitation to, to prayer. Mm. Instead of, yeah. Um, we're being given an invitation to, to sit with, to listen, to ask questions, try to understand the person, not ask questions to, to lead them and not ask questions to get them like mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, so here's actually what you're struggling with or whatever. Yeah. Gotcha. But to pray, as
Speaker 1 01:27:06 You know, uh, Christopher just kind of changed the subject a little bit through, through a question at me and it, things got pretty deep and pretty personal. Obviously these, these are tough things, especially if you're someone who has walked this journey personally, um, and as Christopher has shared fairly openly, there, there are aspects of this as well as myself, uh, where, where we have walked this journey, if you would like to there there's about a, a good hour, hour, 15 minutes where we discuss this more in depth and share, uh, some more personal stories. Um, if you would like to access that, I invite you to become a member offa Christianity, just go to www dot Asher, whitner.com/member, and you'll see how to access, uh, become a member it's just $10 a month. You get access to all expanded versions of the podcast interviews, uh, past present in the future, as well as, uh, the deep dive essays that we release monthly. Um, so yeah, I invite you to become a member if you'd like to access the, the, the last hour, hour, 50 minutes of this episode. Otherwise I'll just flip it back over to the closure of this interview. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 0 01:28:27 Yeah. I, um, I purposely left this toward the very last, but I think there will be some people who, you know, maybe we didn't, we didn't have any conversation around like the, the negative effects of the era of deconstruction or like, is it trendy?
Speaker 0 01:28:47 Um, you know, just like rapid onset gender dysphoria is kind of a social, social phenomenon happening among youth and largely largely girls. But I think it's both, it's, it's almost cult-like on social media. Um, is there the possibility that deconstruction is a social phenomenon? Like everybody's doing it, we have language mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, my best friends are doing it. And so now I'm, I'm not as well do it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> this is what I have to say to that. Why does that matter if that's happening and you have a lot of young people or people in your life, and you're not sure that they're actually genuinely, like they're being influenced by negative things. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> like everything we've just talked about walking with them, walking with them and the questions that they have, like the way to gain an ear and to, to have influence in their life, to reconsider whether they've been socialized or not, like is to walk that path with them.
Speaker 0 01:29:56 Like, so figuring out like, and, and condemning be construction is not gonna stop the social phenomenon. Yeah. Um, and so I think, I think we need to deconstruct ourselves, like, why are we, why are we so concerned about this? Why are we so, um, why is this threatening to us? Um, we should still be walking with people, even if we, I mean, we should be, if there's kind of this insensitivity self righteousness, like, oh, this is just a fad that you're just, you know, you you've been influenced because you were listening to that one musician that I told you three years ago, not to be listening to or whatever <laugh> like, then you have your own self righteousness to deal with. Like, you're, you're not actually yeah. Necessarily any better off, um, you know, why not be like the prodigal son? I'm sorry. The, the father of the prodigal son who could have told his son when he left that son, you, you're not headed down a good road.
Speaker 0 01:31:04 Um, but instead he gave him everything that he asked for. And then he was so intently watching his, for his son's return, that when he was the long ways off, you saw him and he went, went running after. I'm like, I, I think that's, that's most definitely the picture of God's heart for us. And I think as we are being conformed to his image yeah. That ought to be our posture and not figuring out like whether we should condemn this concept of deconstruction or like make sure that people aren't just falling a fad, um, that that really doesn't matter. Um, we should still be walking with them as you said, being compassionate and gentle. Um, and, and we have lot as we're doing, and I'm not just saying that in theory, like I have done this with people, as you walk with people, you get all kinds of convenient, gentle opportunities to raise a question about whether they, you know, I can't think of a specific example, but to, to help prod their thinking, whether they've allowed like some trend to influence them, like without making them feel condemned and stuff.
Speaker 0 01:32:15 But if that's just kind of your default posture, then it will, mm-hmm, <affirmative> make them feel condemned and they, they won't be coming to you for their, their deep questions. And I know that because there are people, yeah. There are people who have talked with me about things who have said they would not talk to other particular people. Um, so the posture we have is crucial to whether or not we're gonna be someone who can walk a journey with somebody else. Mm-hmm <affirmative> anyways. I just thought I would throw that. No, that's no, that's really good.
Speaker 0 01:32:58 Yeah. Well thank you for coming on. And, uh, maybe you're gonna be getting married the, I guess it's more like five weeks from now. Yeah. And it'd be fun to have you on again, some time maybe, maybe, uh, after you all have been married a while, we can interview you again about <laugh> this, the, the, the path towards romance from singleness <laugh>. Yeah. Cause that's what every single person wants is to be told how to do it. Um, definitely. Do you want people finding you online? <laugh> I be like, Hey, go check out. Christopher's that's a good question.
Speaker 0 01:33:45 Um, no, that's fine. They don't need to find me. You can talk to me. If you have a question or concern about anything that's been said, you can contact
[email protected]. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. And thanks for sharing ably. Yeah, for sure. It was fun. I'm always down to like, just chat. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I think this is probably, I told, I told you before we started recording that this is probably the most unprepared I've been for podcast before, and which is evidenced by the fact that it's like way over my time limit. Um, but all those people who are complaining to us about our long podcasts, <laugh>, I'll just have to go somewhere else for like a, a podcast app. Lets you pause and you can even go listen to other podcast episodes does and then come back and it'll just pick up right where you left off.
Speaker 0 01:34:48 So it's see at, but at this point in the podcast, we're just preaching to the choir. Cause these people all listen to the whole thing. The only people listening, unless I put this in at the very beginning, like I put, I put it in. Oh yeah, there you go. There you go. <laugh> you should, you should just do it at the beginning to get everybody. I love hearing people's feedback cuz it helps me know like how I can improve the podcast and stuff like that. But I'm very like unapologetic about the fact that just cuz you give me feedback doesn't mean I'm gonna change something. Cause there's, there's a form of podcasting that I personally enjoy doing. And so I wanna, I wanna do the best to serve you in that. Yeah. But if you're asking for 30 minute snippets, you're not gonna get it.
Speaker 0 01:35:33 It takes 30, 30 minute podcast to get in this amount of work. So yeah. Tremendous amount of work. Not, not only like after, after the fact by editing and, and getting it trimmed out, but even just before, like thinking through it, preparing so that you can have a meaningful conversation in 30 minutes that doesn't just feel like chopped up. Um, but it has, I mean there are some wonderful 30 minute podcasts out there that have some art to it. The user are very stylistic. Yeah. They're very stylistic, which means a lot of time and for has been put into. Yeah. Um, but I, I generally like just in a conversation, like I love podcasts that are, That's what I listen to
Speaker 1 01:36:21 See. And
Speaker 0 01:36:21 You can't get very far outta conversation in 30 minutes. Yeah. That's why like really good conversations you look up and you're like, wow,
Speaker 1 01:36:29 It's been an hour already.
Speaker 0 01:36:30 Yeah. And so without apologies <laugh>
Speaker 1 01:36:36 Here we are here. We are at two and a have
Speaker 0 01:36:39 Ours Anyways.
Speaker 1 01:36:41 Thank you.
Speaker 2 01:36:42 Yep.
Speaker 0 01:36:43 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 01:37:29 Christianity is brought to you by our members. Andon is a part of the membership program. You receive two deep dead essays a month and expanded versions of all our podcast interviews. If you like to become a member, it is at www.nationalwiner.com/member. OK. Christianity podcast is also a part of two networks. The restorative faith collective, where we have conversations about race perspectives and relationships in, in Baptist context to learn about more articles and podcasts visit www dot restorative, faith, collective.org. The second network is the kingdom outpost, where we talk about what it looks like to live as Jesus' nation in today's world for more podcasts and articles, visit kingdom outpost org. Thanks for listening.
