#005 - Does Jesus Love Homosexuals?

Speaker 0 00:00 Hey listeners, it's good to be back with you again today. I'm excited for this episode. I have a friend, Ken Brewbaker, and we're going to be discussing the struggle that someone has when they face same sex attraction. Ken is going to be sharing his story and then we're going to be talking about how the church can be a place that's safe for people who face same sex attraction and what Jesus has to say and has to offer someone who deals with this. It's a topic that we don't hear a lot about and that's sad because there are many among us who struggle with this but face incredible shame because they struggle with it. And I think a lot of it is just that we don't have conversations about it. And so I am looking forward to this conversation with Ken. Um, just by way of reminder, this is a listener supported show. You can go to patreon.com forward slash Asher Witmer and become a member from $1 a month to $100 a month, whatever you want to give 'em. If you select $5 $15 or $25 there's a bunch of bonuses that come with that level of membership as well. I also just want to shout out to my friend Cory Steiner who provides the intro music for this show. I'm excited and blessed to have his work, a part of my work in this way. And you can go check them [email protected] Speaker 1 01:31 sorry, I think that's Cory Steiner standard music.wordpress.com where you can check them out on Facebook. He has an album out the good wins at the last and now from my conversation with Ken Brewbaker Speaker 2 01:42 <inaudible>. Speaker 1 01:57 All right, welcome to unfeigned Christianity. I've got a friend on today, new friend. If we reached, he reached out to me a couple of years ago and <inaudible> Speaker 0 02:12 each other for the first time back in March. So this is October now, so about six months ago. And then we've had some email message dialoguing back and forth over the summer, the last month or so. And, and I'm, I'm excited for this interview. It's good to have Ken Brewbaker on the show, on the episode here and basically I'm going to have candidates share his story. But just by way of introduction, Ken is from Southern Ontario, is that right? Just assumed a Mennonite from Canada. I figured Southern Ontario is a couple of years ago, I forget even what year it was. Um, a lot of it motivated was motivated. A book that I was reading at the time on same sex, uh, same sex attractions, uh, wrestling through same sex marriage and so forth. And I wrote an article I think, or a Facebook post just discussing some of that and kind of how it's not, I'm not sure if this is exactly what you responded to, but I remember writing something about how it's not really talked about in our Anabaptist churches. Speaker 0 03:28 And I had quite a few people. I, I don't remember right off hand, I'm in a matter of a week. I think it was close to 20 emails and messages enough that it kind of overwhelmed me and I'm not sure I responded to anybody immediately. Um, because I was in the middle of work finishing my own book on live free, just my own struggles with sexuality and, and more heterosexual struggles. And I realized that the conversation I just opened, the can too is, is way bigger than what I had the time and space to look at it. And so I kind of shelved it. And then, um, later, even over the year or so, I, I had more trickle feedback. And what is this, 2019? So yeah, I published my book in 2018 and then kind of right away my goal was to, to pick those conversations back up and I was blessed to be able to meet Ken here, Adam men, the men of Valor conference in Indiana in March. Speaker 0 04:37 And he came up to me and, and mentioned you and Ray were there and uh, we had a brief dialogue there, just enough to connect the dots that you are the Ken Brewbaker that had reached out to me. And so I just asked Ken if you would come on and share his story because, um, two things. One, this conversation is not really had in our anti Baptist churches. And secondly, when it is had, it's kind of like racial issues. It tends to be had by people who don't deal with it, who don't face it. And so I, I just wanted to hear from someone who, who has journeyed this themselves. I, I have, and we'll get into this a little more can as you share your story and so forth, but I've heard such a spectrum. Um, I would read books. One of the, the most impactful books that I've read is, uh, people to be loved by Preston sprinkle. I don't know if you're familiar with that one. Yeah. I'm very, probably one of the most thorough, exegetical biblical resources on dealing with same sex marriage, but also very pastoral and how to walk with people who are facing this and Speaker 3 06:00 <inaudible> Speaker 0 06:01 what was I gonna say about that? I forget now. The, uh, Speaker 3 06:07 <inaudible> Speaker 0 06:09 let me see if I can bring it back up. Speaker 3 06:11 <inaudible> Speaker 4 06:13 you were talking about people to be loved. Speaker 0 06:15 Oh, the spectrum. Yeah. He talks. Yeah. Just some of the stories in there were unbelievable. Like, uh, stories of abuse, stories of people who grew up in, in healthy homes, like not your stereotypical, unhealthy whatever, but still struggled with it. And I, I noticed in the responses that I got that there was that type of spectrum, young old peoples, we'll hear more from you, but people similar to your story where it was an instantaneous freedom. Um, another older man who's married, who, who still faces it but has, has found, I would have to go back and look, but I think a lot of the ones I, I got responses from were felt like they were walking in freedom, walking into a level of, of freedom from that. And I would, yeah, just again, to clarify what the freedom is, is that they're not just like a heterosexual man not looking at pornography. You're lusting after other women who's not his wife in a similar way, not acting on those temptations and urges. And so we're gonna start with you. Your story is unique. It's a bit graphic and I think all of our stories are graphic if we're honest and, Speaker 3 07:39 yeah. Speaker 0 07:40 But yeah, I, I just, um, I would love for my audience to hear kind of your upbringing, your setting, you grew up in Southern Ontario, conservative Mennonite community, conservative Mennonite church, and then how this, the, the struggle with same sex attraction came to be. Um, so yeah, I can, thanks for being on. What, why don't you just take it here and we'll listen in and I'll jump in with questions as we go. Sure. Speaker 4 08:10 Well, I'll start doing it then, cause I don't know where else where to start either. So, um, Speaker 4 08:17 yeah, like we talked earlier, I don't know what to say and what not to say. Everyone still is alive in my story and, and you know, the grace that God showed me and did in my life is available for every single person who, who has been in my life as well. So, you know, that's really the most, that's probably the thing that I want most to have people here. Um, when it started, I don't know, cause I don't remember when it started. Um, I was born that way. Um, as in, as in as, as long as I can remember. I ha was sexually attracted to men. Speaker 5 09:00 Sure. Speaker 4 09:01 I'm sorry. Can I clarify something? Was that just men or like, yeah. Well, I have never lost it after a woman ever. Hmm. Yeah. I can with certainty tell you that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's not to make anyone who does feel bad is just the truth. Yeah. Um, so as a know that as early as eight, I was acting out with other kids. So, uh, so the, the attraction was already then an earlier prior to that, I was sexually abused by a neighbor man. Uh, it was nothing violent, nothing. The, the most outstanding thing about it is that I didn't understand what was happening. Speaker 5 09:50 Sure. Speaker 4 09:51 Right. You were younger than eight years old. Yes. I would say between four to six. I don't know for sure. It's a bit of a guess based on the age of the siblings that I know are along. So, yeah. Um, the thing about that was it, I don't understand the significance maybe of that. I don't know. That was, I think that was a big part of, of, of how it started. Probably it doesn't really matter anymore, but, uh, yeah, Speaker 4 10:20 that I clearly remember now not have not, I did not understand what happened to me. My mind wasn't able to process what I saw. Yeah. It was, it was stuff I didn't know about yet. Um, later in life. I think it was maybe in my teen years when suddenly it all, it all came together as like, Oh, that's what happened there. It had to be, there's no other thing this could have been. Yeah. It was like it. So, and at that point in life it was just like, well, that is what it was. Um, so, so I think that was probably a big, a big factor in the struggle in the start of it were, were you, would you have noticed yourself being attracted to other men before that, that abuse? Speaker 4 11:08 I was not young. I don't know. Yeah. And so I'm not going forward from that. I mean, as far back as my mind can remember, I was attracted to men. Yeah. No. So I did not feel a love from my dad. He loved me. He took good care of me. He taught me how to work. He taught me to take responsibility. I love my dad, but as a child, I didn't feel his love. So, so he didn't get through to my heart for whatever reason. Right. And I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not faulting him, but it was what happens. So, um, I know that came a desire to be loved or the desire, the need, the, the, um, meet the, the need for love and, uh, in the child's heart wasn't met. And you can, you can, uh, you can be, it's a built in desire put there by God. So, uh, you can guarantee that every kid is going to go fill that need if it's missing. So, so, um, mine turn sexual and I want to be loved by a man. Yeah. So something about that term sexual, I don't know, but I mean already was, the desire was already, but it just, it was not, was the way that I understood love to be received by, from my dad or a man. Speaker 0 12:43 Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of seems like that's almost how all of us experience it. Like the, the desire to be loved, turned sexual, whether, yeah, Speaker 4 12:54 yeah, yeah. I think it's the same. Yeah. So, so that's, uh, that's the, what I call the critical one, vulnerability in my life. That's because I'm an ICU guy, but there was, there was a, this, this, this, this was a thing in my life. So it was a matter of time until the right person in the right place comes along that meet that, that matches that deepest longing and desire in my life at that point. Yeah. For it just to happen. Yeah. So, so I look back at my life now and it was predictable. The sequence of events that happened in my life was guaranteed to happen. Um, based on where I was as a person. It was just a matter of time until enough life class that I would meet a person who would want to fill that need for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, without Jesus stepping in and changing things or intervention that that's what was going to happen. And that's what will happen to any person who's got a strong propensity to lust or that, uh, that favourite, lustful desire that's not ever been met. Yeah. It's the chance happens that will, it will take place. Speaker 0 14:15 Yeah. Yeah. Guaranteed. And so would like, were you looking at pornography, like same sex porn or anything up until this time or was it just kind of this lingering, uh, longing that then somebody came along and it filled the vacuum? Speaker 4 14:35 That is what happened. Yeah, because I have, I think I like, I got my first phone when I was 18. Yeah. Cell phones weren't really a thing. We didn't have internet at home at that point. So I had no access to porn to begin with. The other thing is for, as far as I was concerned, at that point in life, this was just a thing that kids did. Right. I didn't know any adults who did. And then, you know, I grew into my teen years and I was like, what was that when I was a kid? Yeah. I don't know. Nothing good. Really. We, how did we get into it? No one told us not to. No one told us we should. It was just kind of gray, just probably would've better been better if it didn't happen. So I kind of behind me on and at that point in my life, it still was a thing that, that was a kid thing. Speaker 4 15:26 I had no clue that adults do that kind of stuff at that point. So, so it's weird how small minded I was and how far into it I was at the same time. Yeah. Does that make sense? So, um, yeah, go for it. You can keep going. Yeah. I, uh, so, so, um, I had great youth years still. Obviously the struggle is always there and it sounds the same as the heterosexual struggle and the summertime people wear less clothes. Yeah. And so, so that was obviously obviously a problem for the whole lust thing. Um, but I had a great, relatively great teenage years, uh, met my wife, we married. And uh, not too long after that, my father in law proposed sex to me. Wow. And my first reaction was, uh, Speaker 5 16:27 <inaudible>, Speaker 4 16:30 well it's not my dad, but as my father in law, maybe this would work. Speaker 5 16:38 Hmm. Speaker 4 16:39 Okay. Cause you remember that what I was talking about, my critical vulnerability, that was what I was analyzing. Right. It's like I had this uncanny ability to know that my heart is broken, these repair, and I thought that sex would fix it. Obviously not true. Um, but that's how I considered it from at that point. Yeah. Where I was at. Right. The second one was surprise. Like I said, that adults do this. I thought it was only kids. Hmm. So again, just small minds, those, um, so of course I consent and, and it didn't seem like in any way that I compromise my marriage because that was a totally different thing. That was, I would, that was marriage to my wife. This was a pursuit to fix my broken heart. Hmm. And you, you process that cognitively? Definitely. Yeah. Wow. Yes. Yes. It was intentional. Speaker 4 17:37 This was not a thing. This wasn't intentional. This was an intentional search for Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so that's why I began, that's why I started or that's why, that's why, that's why what was in my mind started with, began to act out. I was serious about fixing my broken heart. Yeah. So that went on for, uh, four ish years at least. And there was points in time where I requested for, you know, I said I'm done cause I sick of it, you know, at the same time as I enjoyed it, I'd feel used. It wasn't working, didn't seem to, it was just this is just a, it's just a treadmill. Mmm. Mmm. Speaker 3 18:27 Yeah. Speaker 4 18:28 I don't understand why, uh, why it didn't stop. Why, why it had to be me who was on the receiving end of this because, uh, there was other teams locally who I wasn't the only one, so I was just like, well, leave me alone and go find someone else. Why, why, why can't that work? Well, she was also addicted. I didn't understand that then. Right. Yeah, I'm small minded. So, um, Speaker 4 19:01 that went on, um, until we hired intercompany company, a guy who, uh, I got to know and that he was all open and honest about life and struggles and, and, and, you know, all the same topics that you discuss. And that was for me, um, he had the difficult life growing up and yet he was facing it and, and he was open about talking about it. And so he worked first for awhile and then, uh, and, you know, I thought over time it was like over time again, he gained my trust and, uh, I began to consider the idea of telling him or asking him, you know, Hey, you know, I didn't know anyone who, who did, who I didn't know who to talk to. Hmm. There was no one in my church thought that I knew who to talk to, nobody that I thought might understand. So I thought I was alone. I was the only one. Um, so I considered for a whole year Speaker 3 20:12 <inaudible> Speaker 4 20:14 and then I, then I made up my mind that I'm going to reach out to him. Wow. So it was really risky thing, obviously. Oh, well, well, it was like this. So yeah. The reason why I got into this was to fix my broken heart. And finally I got to the point where I said, this isn't working. Yeah. It's not doing what I set out to accomplish. Yeah. Right. I was intent on fixing the ache in my, and I was going to find whatever it was that was going to be the answer. If this wasn't going to do it, then I was gonna quit and do something else. So again, very rational and logical way of thinking through it. Yeah. And, and it wasn't, but that I was going to quit because it was bad or whatever on a pursuit to fix the actual issue. Speaker 4 21:12 Yeah. Right. Wow. What I didn't realize in that moment was that, that, that I had reached the end of myself. Like I had done the very last thing that I knew to do on my own to, to, to deal with this. And I didn't know that Jesus would be the answer. Hmm. Wow. That's already a member in the church. I had already done that. I was baptized and that well, you know, you get not, you become a member. That's, that's the thing. So, so I was by, by all appearances and by what they said, being a member as I was one, um, I hadn't, and my whole life ever heard a minister say, um, preach a message saying that that Jesus can set us free from homosexuality. I'm, I'm fairly sure that, I never heard that one time across the polls. Um, did you hear that Jesus hates homosexuals or anything like that or no, it just wasn't talked about. Speaker 4 22:14 So the conference, so that the conversations that was that were had was, um, you know, if, if the topic comes up and then it's like a funny joke and everyone just, right and, and you're like, that's me. Yeah. Right. You're laughing about, right. So that was about the, so that's about all that happened that way. But people do need to realize when they, if they make light about anything that they're doing that to someone. Yeah. There's someone who's struggling in the area that they're making light of <inaudible> and that it's not, I mean, so obviously yours is very closely connected with, uh, abuse. You being violated by other men. But even so, like this isn't just a guy being feminine or with you, like this is the, his makeup who he is. Yeah, that's right. It is your, you are, you were speaking about someone's entire identity because it's this as a part of that person, as your heterosexual sex drive is a, is a view. Hmm. Um, yes, for sure. And at that stage in life, that was, that was personal, that that was personal. That was a part of me. Yeah. Yeah. And all of that changes when, when you realize what our identity is in Christ. Yeah. Right. There's no part that's not Christ, you know? Speaker 0 23:56 Yeah. So, so what if you had never heard a preacher talk about this? What led you on to the fact that Jesus could provide that freedom? Speaker 3 24:14 Okay. Speaker 4 24:14 After I became a Christian, I struggled with the idea that I was one and didn't know I was pursuing a, a struggle with the idea, a struggle with a lot with the thing that I knew and I knew that I was a Christian. Now there was nothing that was going to let that could convince me. And I knew in my heart was settled that I was a Christian now. And I struggled a lot with the thing that, that I had become a Christian without even knowing I was pursuing it without even intentionally pursuing Jesus. I had become one. Speaker 0 24:46 You thought you were a Christian all these years and you're struggling with Speaker 4 24:51 yes. And this was just part of struggle and it is for some people. I'm not saying, but that's, that was just, yeah, it's so, so I struggled. But, but salvation is a free gift. Speaker 3 25:05 Yeah, man. Speaker 4 25:06 Ultimately it is. And so, so I, I fell into it without knowing what I was, what I was falling into. And, and Jesus loved me into the kingdom. I was never convicted of my sin. Speaker 3 25:20 Wow. Speaker 4 25:22 I was never convicted of my sinfulness. I was loved into the kingdom. I realized how much Jesus loves me. Yeah. It was just mind blowing. Speaker 0 25:33 Yeah. Talk about that a little bit because I think, I think anybody can identify with that a little bit. Um, what do you mean by Jesus loved you into the kingdom? Or you're saying Jesus didn't like grip you with such conviction that you're doing this evil? No. How, how, how did Jesus grip you or how did, Speaker 4 25:53 I'm not sure if because so, so I got up the courage to, to, to talk to my friend. I sent him a text messages and say, Hey, we need to talk. Um, and, and I, I didn't say why. I just said we have to talk. And I, and there was enough in the message that, that, that he knew, I, I can't remember how I phrased it, but I sent it, I was putting the kids to bed and I was basically saying, Hey, we need to get together to talk. Um, my oldest daughter was in bed lying down asleep. I sent the message and I said, Oh crap, what have I done? She sits up in bed, puts her arm around me, says that I love you. Speaker 3 26:34 Oh wow. Speaker 4 26:35 Five stone goes to sleep again. Speaker 3 26:37 Yeah. Speaker 4 26:38 So, so in that moment that was pretty, pretty validating cause it's I needed right then cause I had just basically made the commitment to talk about my problem. Yeah. I had no clue yet at that point what would happen. I just figured that we can hang out, we get to figure it out and then something, you know, the problem in my mind at that point was just that this relationship would end. Yeah. Um, so we got together, we hung out, we went for supper. I didn't tell my wife why, I just said I'm going to go hang out with a friend because I was going to just make this go away and life will go on. But, uh, God had other friends. Um, yeah. So, so we met, I'm sure we prayed. Um, but past that all, all I did was say, here's, here's what's going on and I don't know what to do about it. Wow. That's really all that happened that night. Nothing amazing. Nothing crazy. But it was December end of 2013 and when saw, so that was that. And uh, Speaker 4 27:49 so what, when things, when things started to really come together for me was a week or so later I was driving down the road and it was coming up to the weekend and I was just, you know, what are we doing this weekend? Oh we have a Christmas gathering at my parents. And then I was like, just like this passing thought, Oh I should buy my dad a Christmas gift yet, like before, before Christmas gathering. And so I almost hit the ditch as I analyze with what I had just thought cause I was like, Whoa. Where did that idea come from? Cause you didn't typically get your dad a gift or never? Yeah, no, I wanted to and, and here I was having the, it was just this thought like I recognize that this thought was coming from inside of me just like, I want to do this. Yeah. Oh I need to get this done yet before the weekend. Yeah. And it blew me away. I was like, what world is going on? I realized that in my heart had love for my father. Wow. And, and the love part was a thing that had never existed before. Speaker 5 29:08 Hmm. Speaker 4 29:10 So as like what is going on? So I bought my dad a pair of socks for custody, gave them to him. Um, what was his response is usually accepted that he doesn't understand that he doesn't matter. It doesn't understand the significance of what was, because I didn't call him then. Um, uh, he was, he was happy with them. He prefers licorice. So did he say that or no, I know Speaker 0 29:41 that. Yeah. Speaker 4 29:43 We'll get that. But, um, so, so that was, so that was the beginning. Where were, so I was like, what is going on? And then I realized, so that, that was the first inkling that something had changed in my life. And so with them, the next day or two, I began to realize that, that my world view has changed. I love people, um, Speaker 6 30:11 that <inaudible> Speaker 4 30:14 and I began to wonder as like, it was like a week. It went two weeks, it went three weeks. It was like men. I think that I think that my desire for men is gone. Speaker 6 30:25 <inaudible> Speaker 4 30:28 I cook it all. It all happens so subtly. Like though it was not like bang. Whereas like here I'm struggling here. I'm not, I mean it was, but I didn't feel it. Yeah. Right. So a month went by and two months went by and I realized that that uh, I'm free. I have no desire anymore. Sexual there for men has gone. And I had this overwhelming realization that Jesus loves me. Speaker 6 30:59 Wow. Speaker 4 31:00 Right. The way I am. Speaker 6 31:03 Wow. I could see that. Speaker 4 31:06 That's all. So Jesus loved me into the kingdom. Speaker 6 31:10 Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 0 31:12 So this, this time, just to make sure I'm tracking, my listeners are tracking with you. You, you met with this guy ahead of this Christmas gathering and you basically dumped your whole story for the first time, Daniel <inaudible> for the first time. And not even your wife. Like you're married, you have kids. You were putting your, your oldest daughter to bed. Yup. I was 28, 28. Wow. That's what I am right now. Speaker 6 31:40 Yeah. Um, Speaker 0 31:43 and so you, the week after that, just realizing and you don't remember necessarily, you're sure you think you may be prayed or something, but you don't remember a distinct like confessing, rebuking and, and all this, um, or renouncing, not rebuking. Oh yeah. No, but all of a sudden you have a love for your dad and a love for people and a lack of sexual desire for men, right? Speaker 6 32:13 Yeah. Speaker 4 32:15 And my heart wasn't hurting anymore. Speaker 0 32:16 Yeah. So was, was there something about that night with that, that guy, that friend, that you discovered a different perspective of Jesus? Or was it just him being Jesus to you? Speaker 4 32:29 I think so. I think just him being Jesus. Um, it was a relief to have told someone. Finally, he honestly didn't know what to do. The guy is not even married. So I, you felt like you couldn't said, but that trusted him. That was a man thing. Um, for me it was, I don't, I felt rotten that night. I wasn't feeling well. I had it all. But the, it felt good to have told someone. Um, she obviously said I need to talk to my wife about this. And I didn't understand at that point yet why I would need to. Hmm. Cause this was a different thing than anything that I was doing in my marriage. Wow. Um, but I did the very next day and so that was difficult, very difficult for my wife and broke her trust in her father. Um, yeah. Talk about that a little bit. Speaker 4 33:19 Like did it, how did it affect your marriage as a, and and so the, the interesting thing about it is that the, uh, actual, the, the, the, the benefits of becoming a Christian were so huge that they were the outweighed by far the downsides for the to us by far. Yes. I, I, my wife was married to different person. Wow. Um, but definitely she was going through a ton of stuff dealing with, they were a close family and that she was dealing with, uh, the betrayal of a, of a, of a father with his favorite daughter, if you know, if that may be a thing. She was, yeah. So like there was nothing, when she heard this story, it didn't like, ah, now I understand some of these weird events, but it was just complete, um, business. It was was out of the blue. Yeah. Speaker 4 34:21 And, and so, you know, in hindsight we should've known, um, you know, as far as, you know, these things on his side were happening years before I came along. This was a lifestyle for him that was hidden up until that point, when I told my wife, I didn't know yet if he would repent. I had no idea what he'd do. I was afraid to be angry with me. Um, I don't know what he'd do, but it didn't matter. This was about me. So for, for me, it was very powerful to be able to say, look, I've told someone about this, um, cause I want it to stop. Yeah. Um, it turned out really well. He was looking for an odor as well. And, and so that was the beginning of the end as well for him. Yeah. Um, so our life changed like crazy. Um, it was wonderful. Um, at the same time it was difficult to go through those dynamics. No one else knew. Um, so it was just us. It was very, yeah. And uh, but I resolved that no one would ever know. Speaker 5 35:42 Hmm. Speaker 4 35:44 Oh, Speaker 0 35:45 as in you, you made sure no one would ever know or you just realize that, that people wouldn't really care. Speaker 4 35:53 Hm. Uh, I, we, I made sure that nobody would ever find out it wasn't safe to, yeah. Yeah. You know, I was afraid of what our church would do to start with. Um Speaker 5 36:07 Hmm. Speaker 4 36:07 And just the whole dynamics of, and the shame of facing people after they knew about it, it just wasn't ever going to do that was never going to happen. It was, it was out of the question. Eventually I got really, um, ups pissed off that, uh, I wasn't free to share what Jesus had done in my life. Hmm. I couldn't walk around and say, Jesus set me free from homosexual desires like this. Yeah. And it really frustrated me. Yeah. And, and that's eventually why. That's eventually the reason why I went to my church and told them cause I need it to be free to talk. I needed, I needed to be free to say what Jesus has done in my life and it didn't matter what they would do, I needed to be free to talk. Hmm. Whatever they did was went with them. So, um, they excommunicated me for becoming Christian, I guess. I'm not sure. Yeah. For, is that what they said? No. Or was it, it's just what they had to do. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 0 37:21 They didn't know how to deal with someone with that kind of story. Speaker 5 37:25 For what? Speaker 4 37:29 I'm not sure. Yeah, it's a, at that point, just a year prior to that, there had been another similar same size case I've got dealt with incredibly poorly and badly as well. Yes. Oh wow. Okay. And so I think the reason why they had to was to be consistent with the way they handled that case. Um, I'm not sure for sure. Speaker 0 37:58 Interesting. So that that case, it wasn't like the guy had been born again and set free necessarily, or what, Speaker 4 38:07 I don't know a lot of details about it. It's a big church, right. I don't really know the people. So, so, so that was, that was difficult. That was, that was the hardest time of our life by far, especially right. Speaker 0 38:23 Because you're looking, you're sharing because you want to be able to talk about what Jesus has done and now the Jesus is people just kick you out. Speaker 4 38:31 That's right. And we felt more support from people outside our own. Hmm. Which was really difficult to, to, to, to understand because, um, we were a good church. That's how we were taught. Here's the reasons why that make us, why we are doing what we're doing. Right. Yeah. Every church I think does that, you know, here's kind of the value proposition of our church and that's what makes you want to be here very quickly. We didn't want to be there and we were getting more support from outside than inside. Um, Speaker 6 39:10 yeah. I, I, I wanna I wanna <inaudible> Speaker 0 39:13 you to finish your story first, but I'd like to come back to that just cause I know I'm, one of the guys that reached out to me talked about how he taught he was facing same sex attraction. And from what I understand that he hadn't Speaker 6 39:28 acted out on it yet and, Speaker 0 39:31 but he went to the church leaders because he wanted help and they told him that they don't support that lifestyle and, and so he felt very disillusioned. Speaker 6 39:43 And um, Speaker 0 39:46 I actually feel really bad because he's, he's the one that I went back later and tried to find a message and discovered he's no longer on Facebook. Um, cause I, yeah, I, my heart went out to him. Speaker 4 39:59 Yup. Speaker 0 39:59 But he talked about how he felt he found more care and support from the LGBT community than from the church. And yet he loved Jesus. Speaker 4 40:11 He wanted, I'm sure. Yeah. Speaker 0 40:17 So you're, you're saying, I mean this isn't, you found support from other Christians. Speaker 4 40:25 That's right. Just not in your church. That's right. Was a couple within, within our church, but a very few to think of how large it is compared to, to everywhere else. But, uh, Speaker 6 40:40 um, <inaudible> Speaker 4 40:42 that's, it's redefined our friendships in a region. That event redefined every friendship we had wow. At redefined. So, so getting ex-communicated we lost our, a friends and our family and our church all in one day. Wow. Um, Speaker 0 41:02 your family, because they were a part of that church or did they not accept you either really? Speaker 4 41:07 Well, my father in law was a on the one side. Yeah. Yeah. And my brother in law was deacon on, on my family's side. How do you deal with the dynamics of that? Wow. Speaker 6 41:24 Yeah. Speaker 4 41:25 We're stuck between two families. The one who's the church and the other who's on the other side. Um, my family is stuck between if we're gonna say that they're gonna support someone, who are they going to support in our family? Yeah. And, and, uh, my wife's family was going through the same things we were, and my family was too. So how do you, how do you deal with that? Speaker 5 41:56 Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 4 42:02 It makes her a little breathtaking, but the, those, what happened? Um, so, so dealing with that and the shame of having misrep, having the story misrepresented by the church, what I really wanted was to stand up in church and say that I was, that I was, uh, in bondage and that Jesus has set me free. That I was a free man, that I was a Christian. Now that was my heart's desire. And for some reason I thought that could happen, but it's not the way things are done there. And I knew that, yeah. That was still my heart's desire. So, so it was tough to deal with that too. Uh, a misrepresentation of what happened and it was that bad that you wondered if they understood, Speaker 5 42:44 Hmm. Speaker 4 42:45 There is definitely people who do, but as is just, yeah. Speaker 0 42:50 Yeah. As in if they understood just the story in general or even understood exactly what Jesus had done for you. Speaker 4 42:59 It why I wondered if they understood that Jesus sets people free from bondage. Yeah. Yeah. Whether, whatever, whatever bondage it is. Yeah. I mean, I know there's people who do. Yeah. Right. But, uh, Speaker 0 43:15 well even my, my question when you talked about your church's response initially the, the question I immediately had was like, was there sin being dealt with regularly? Like did, did the church know how to deal with, and I guess that's a question for the broader church in general is like, do we, because we don't just have sexual sense, we have all kinds of sins that are equally horrible and, and I'm appalling that the right word in God's eyes. But do we as a church know how to deal with those sins? And do we regularly deal with them in our own, the sin of even just steeped bitterness or, um, yeah. And so yeah, I, I resonate with your question of do they understand and how many of us listening here now do we understand that Jesus isn't just this thing we sent to intellectually on Sundays and talk about, but actually change our lives? Speaker 4 44:23 Austin, change your life. Yeah. Yup. If cheese isn't changing your life, then that's not the gospel. Wow. He loves you into the kingdom. He doesn't pound you and make you feel bad. No. But he changes your life. That's right. That's this, that is the gospel. Yup. Speaker 6 44:45 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's powerful. Yeah. Speaker 4 44:55 Did you have more? That's in a nutshell, part of what we went through. There was a, you know, a, a simultaneous story that ran alongside that one where I was getting in trouble, um, at church I over the same period of time, because I'm an it guy, I now use the internet and the church's content filter wasn't working great for us. So there was a meeting that happened three months after I became a Christian. I was 28 for the first time in my life. I know in my heart, but Jesus loves me and that I am a Christian. When I die, I am going to heaven. Um, and that meeting there was a leader who felt threatened by our disobedience and he said that this would be dense ascent and that I'm in danger of the judgment. Hmm. And I sat there and I just kinda like my eyes open and I was like, wow, I understand more about grace than he does. Speaker 4 45:59 Yeah. Uh, my heart went out to him, mate. Not in the moment, but as I wrap my head around it, it was like you can't say that when you know what I do. Yeah. So, so that was happening at the same time as this. So our life was complete church chaos. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I can't, I can't, uh, can't describe that. So, so eventually we left, we realized that when you're excommunicated excommunicated, you're more of a member then when you are a member because you're not free to leave really, um, as in any other Mennonite church won't take except you at, because of your prior status, without something, without some, uh, you know, paperwork happening. So we stayed awhile, um, and eventually it just wasn't working, so we left. Speaker 6 46:57 Yeah. Speaker 4 47:00 And you had changed so dramatically, um, as to what was important. Um, because we had lived life where it was just, it was the bare bones of the gospel. That is what gets you through life. Speaker 6 47:14 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. We're in, which is what Speaker 4 47:21 to get us through all of life. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Wow. So Speaker 0 47:30 you, you then found you like you're, you're going to another church now. Just not, you haven't been able to become members yet. Speaker 3 47:37 Okay. Speaker 4 47:40 Yeah. Well, let's say an earlier, there's, there's challenges in my mind with that, that feel like compromise as well, because we're not going where we would have chosen to or going where, where God said to go. And, and, and right now, honestly, it feels like that reason has just really recently closed. Right. There was some people that we met there who we walked with and we wouldn't have met them any other way than to have it by having gone to that church when we did. Oh. And our lives are met for a time and, and we, we were able to help and, and, and they're beginning to walk on. So it feels like the end of a period. Again, they're, so, yeah. We're at for a church. Speaker 0 48:24 Yeah. And you mentioned in, um, I want to come back to some things here as well, but in the email you mentioned how God has opened the doors in the last couple of years to walk with some other young guys that, do they have similar stories or are they just guys with struggles that you're, you're walking with or how, yeah, Speaker 4 48:50 there they're all over. They're not all the same. Um, the most dysfunctional ones are my favorites because they're what I resonate with and they're the ones where Jesus needs to do the most work to transform them. And, and he does. So, yeah, that's been a pretty cool to see that. Speaker 0 49:07 Are these guys, do you have sons or are they friends of your sons or, or how, how, how do they find out about you? Speaker 4 49:15 Through the person we met at the church we're going to now. So it's opened a whole door of relationships that has been great. And, and just teaching, teaching them, discipling them, and, and, and, you know, Romans 12 two. It's by the, by the, uh, our minds Speaker 0 49:34 renewing of our minds. Speaker 4 49:36 Yes. Not, not by our clothes. Speaker 0 49:39 Yeah. Amen. Speaker 4 49:40 Right? We're, we're transformed, not conformed. Yeah. And see that reality that become real in their lives. And that was like the light goes on and you see these people just go onto their own steam is the most rewarding thing ever. Speaker 0 49:57 Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine. And as Paul says in Romans eight, the, because of the love of Christ, we are more than conquerors. Not only are we set free from our sin and our bondage, but then we can help set others free. Yeah. That's really cool. Speaker 4 50:17 Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, this is no different than anything else, you know, um, whatever, whatever the struggle is, whether it's lust or homosexuality or beastiality or whatever's suicide, you know, you're not alone. Yeah. That is the tactic of the devil. Things happened. A lot of people. Yeah. And I talked to lots of them all the time, and every single one thinks that they're alone in this. And that's not true. That's just not true. Speaker 0 50:49 Yeah. Well, and it's, it's crazy because we can think that even as struggling with our heterosexual temptation for porn or something, and that's, that's more talked about than anything else in the church, like the church is becoming okay with that. And yet we are still in that moment or in the middle of that struggle, feel like we're the only ones where messed up. How much of that, like obviously, um, it's obviously it's a tactic of the devil, but how much of that is maybe compounded by the fact that so many of us grew up in Christian homes and kind of assumed we should be free from this, but I'm not, you know, at least that's kind of how it wasn't my story. I'm a passenger son. I know what the Bible says about walking in freedom and being filled with the spirit, but here I'm walking in failure. Speaker 4 51:41 Yeah. I think that there's this flaw in our logic as church people. Um, you know, um, we, we have this perception that, that, that children have parents who are in the church are better centers, Hmm. Than, than the worst centers on the street. And the reality of the matter is that everyone's a center until they come to Christ. The better centers are still centers, you know, just because they're addressing just because they're doing whatever, just because they're looking doesn't make them any less than center. Yeah. And I think the church forgets to preach that way. Hmm. The church forgets to preach to its own people that they are centers until they're saints. Wow. Because there's this kind of perception that while you're good people, you have good parents, that means that you're good or them world out there. And as not everyone needs to get to the point where they accept Jesus and let him drive. Speaker 0 52:43 Yeah. And so just to Speaker 3 52:45 <inaudible> Speaker 0 52:47 just to hear again, I think you've mentioned it and alluded to it several times, but what does it mean when do you become a Saint then? Or when, when do you like what does it mean to be a Christian? Speaker 4 52:59 Yeah, well, I want it to do what's right. So I got baptized when I was 17 which was a little young maybe than some, but not necessarily way out there. But, uh, and so the, the desire to do good was there, but nothing had changed my life. Um, I look back at that and I don't know for sure. I definitely don't understand what I do now. I don't, I'm judging my own life. If I say what I was then, I don't know. Hmm. Um, I do know that a 28 I can do. There's a real true realization that Jesus loves me and that he has changed me. And the difference was that I had gotten to the end of myself. We weren't doing things on my terms anymore. My attorney said, run out. Yeah. Um, up until that point, I didn't believe Jesus loves me. Speaker 4 53:52 I was, I was rejecting his love. I really was, I didn't look at it that way. It was just my prideful rejection of Jesus is really what it was. And so, yeah, I've begun to ramble here. I hardly remember what your original question was. I guess what, uh, uh, what it means to, to, to me now, it means that, uh, let's see on the reason why I get out of bed anymore because Jesus loves you because Jesus and, yeah. And, um, there's, I mean I have a job, I have a family, I've have friends and hobbies, but the number one desire in my life or what number one motivator has to be what God wants for me to do today. Speaker 5 54:40 Hmm. Hmm. Speaker 4 54:42 If it's not done, he's not on the throne. Speaker 5 54:45 Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 0 54:48 But that, like, that desire to want to do what God has for you today came from, if I'm hearing your story, it came from discovering and accepting cause you, you said you were rejecting it. Speaker 4 55:03 Yeah. Jesus and his love for yes. Yes. And so the benefit I had was that it was not, it became an actual experience. I've felt that, yeah. Where I think for a lot of people as this head knowledge thing, yeah. That hasn't become real. Yeah. And, and I don't know how to make that happen for people. Um, you know, there a Mark in my life where I became changed and, and, and I can't, if that's not real, then nothing is right. So, so I can go back to, but for someone who is where I was, where, where it was all just words and knowledge in my head, um, that's a tough way to be a Christian. I'm not sure if it was, you know, Speaker 0 55:50 sure her and like I can, I can identify with that very much because the breakthrough moment for me, Speaker 5 55:58 yeah, Speaker 0 55:59 excuse me, was to me it kind of felt like a combination. Like I had all this head knowledge of Jesus' love and what you know that, Speaker 5 56:11 Oh, Speaker 0 56:13 the a big thing in my story was I had learned bondage, breaking pears on, I don't know if you're familiar with. And so I would, you know, when I would sin or look at pornography or something, I would pray this prayer and it's, it was just like, it never felt like that broke the bondage. And finally one night, just like you being at the wit's end. I had come home from Bible school where I was, I learned so much and felt like literally felt on fire for God. And then like the last week just got into stuff that was like nor what seemed like normal and, and I was just at the w at the bottom of my, what I knew to do and in that it's kind of mixed up a little bit. Um, the timeline of it because it, yeah, it was kind of a combination of several things, but basically just discovering that God forgives me even when I'm not doing things right or even seeking his forgiveness. Like God has forgiven me and God loves me. And when you can feel that, like you said, something you can experience, it literally sets you free. Yes. Speaker 3 57:30 <inaudible> Speaker 0 57:32 in a, in an overnight. Like for me it's not, I've had temptations since then, but to resist those temptations are, are like blowing a feather away as opposed to getting this mountain off your back because I've felt what it feels like to know the love of God. Yeah. I think that's key. Yeah. I think it is. Speaker 3 57:57 <inaudible> Speaker 0 57:59 yeah. So what do you do? Yeah, just kind of a more, a pastoral question. What do you do when you're walking with people who Speaker 3 58:07 <inaudible> Speaker 0 58:09 are needing that, but you can't, like we can't create that experience for them. No, we can't. Speaker 3 58:16 Yeah. Speaker 0 58:17 We <inaudible> Speaker 3 58:18 <inaudible> Speaker 4 58:20 we need to, uh, Speaker 3 58:22 <inaudible> Speaker 4 58:25 uh, we, I have been on a, on a girl's journey. Um, I can't do Christianity anymore with, I would, uh, the leading and the guiding and the directing of the Holy spirit. Speaker 5 58:38 Hmm. Hmm. Speaker 4 58:39 Um, without that, we are flying blind. Yeah. And I don't think we teach well on that. What walking in the spirit is what it is. Um, if we're not led by the spirit, then we're not doing the father's will. Speaker 5 58:56 Hmm. Wow. Speaker 4 58:59 So, um, but the people who will be led by the spirit are only the ones who will do a cause. Cause God is like a father. And I, you know, the kids ask for candidates a lot, and I say no a lot, but when they ask for the things that line up with my will, I say yes as easy to say them and then God's not different. Yeah. So, so when I begin to ask for the things like God wants for other people, they happen. Speaker 6 59:33 Yeah. Wow. Speaker 4 59:35 Um, so, so that's the challenge for the pastor. Yeah. Um, and, and, and, and to be, to be open, to hear from the spirit and to resolve that, that the only thing that matters is to obey. Um, if, if the spirit tells me to do something and I don't, that's like telling your kid that do something and they don't, um, we're not on the same level as God, obviously, but God will find someone else to talk who will do it. Yeah. Was my point. You know? So in regards to pastoring people, if we aren't submitting and asking and, and w to the Holy spirit, then we're not very effective. Speaker 4 00:28 Um, you know, when Jesus ascended, then he said he's sending the spirit and to replace him. And what kind of drove me or what, what drew started this journey was the, was the fact that, well, if we're supposed to believe at all what Jesus said, then he's saying that the Holy spirit will be an adequate replacement for himself on this earth. Wow. What an adequate replacement. To me it would seem like someone who's like having Jesus right here, who I can ask questions and get answers from. And, and I guess that's what I'm saying, that the Holy spirit should become to us. Hmm. Speaker 0 01:04 Someone we're dialoguing with, listening to obeying just, Speaker 4 01:09 yeah. Jesus was right here. That's right. Cause that's what he's saying that the spirit was coming to do. Speaker 6 01:15 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. No, that's good. Speaker 0 01:22 What, um, how, how much time do you, are you pressed for time here? Speaker 4 01:26 Know, I have to go up at the, I've got lots of time. Speaker 6 01:30 Yeah. Yeah. Um, Speaker 0 01:37 so there's, yeah. Several things that, that I would like to touch on. I'm not sure if we'll have time for it at all, but just since we're on the topic of, of church and, Speaker 6 01:48 um, Speaker 0 01:50 yeah, and just to clarify, when I, when we're talking about pastoring, people are walking with people. That's any of us is we meet people who are struggling with, with sin or bondage or maybe it's our spouses, our own children. Um, you're uh, Oh, you, you were talking about coming to the end of yourself. I immediately thought of parenting right now because there's some things that I feel like, Oh yeah. Need to come to the end of myself in parenting so that that spirit can work and Oh, so there's so many things that we learn on these journeys of bondage to freedom or whatever it is that even if your story doesn't match up with Ken's or mine or whatever it, it's applicable. Um, in many ways a question that I have Speaker 3 02:49 <inaudible> Speaker 0 02:52 is how can churches so kind of dovetailed on the, the question we discussed briefly earlier, like church, the churches reaction to your story and question of how do we deal with sin, period. Um, how can churches create a safe environment for people to share a story similar to yours? And even so yours is mixed, mixed in. You have this, this desire and this longing for which you, it's, it's incredible to me. I don't know if this is normal or not. For me it wasn't this way to identify that what you're really looking for is, is love. Like to me it was all this vague thing until like that's what, when I realize what I'm looking for is his love and Jesus, that's almost what set me free. And with all my sexual struggles were just kind of convoluted in there. Right. But you were able to identify that somehow and recognize that you're longing for love and it seemed, um, Speaker 4 04:03 it wasn't part, I knew I was looking for love, but I didn't know that I was looking for Jesus' love. Speaker 0 04:08 Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, Speaker 4 04:10 yeah. So like I, that's the, that's the funny part. Speaker 0 04:14 Yeah. Yeah. But, so I guess what I was trying to say is you had that journey of the looking for love tea. Um, and then you, you had the level of acting on it, whether it was at eight years old or forget if you said in teen years at all, but then with your father in law that living in, in sin, um, like I guess this is the, the big question or big debate, like what would you see your desire for that love or desire, sexual desire for men as sinful or is it the acting on it that sinful the, Speaker 4 05:02 the sin starts when, uh, the lust starts, the desires and w isn't something that you can do about Speaker 0 05:09 yeah. The, it's what you do with it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's, that's where, that's what I would feel too. Like we can't control our desires. Speaker 4 05:24 Yeah. We come, we come as centers into this world with in some shape or form. So that one's has a thing, something that, that they're, that they're, that they're going to deal with on some level or other. Yeah. It's all about what we do with it. Speaker 0 05:44 And in a way, kind of if God's design is that we have one sexual partner for life than to desire a sexual partner. That isn't, that one sexual partner at any point in time is essentially kind of broken, isn't it? Yeah. Even if it's just another lady or you know. Yeah. Yup. And so the reason I'm making that distinction is because there are some people who are facing this desire, but they don't have a safe place to talk about that desire. It's not like they've actually acted out on it yet. Kind of, kind of, because there's this, Speaker 5 06:31 yeah. Speaker 0 06:34 Um, I'm not sure what the word is, but this, it's, it's foreign to people maybe. I don't know. Um, Speaker 4 06:41 yeah. That's not talked about. And what do you do with it? Speaker 0 06:46 Yeah. So I'd like, I'd like to hear some of your thoughts. Like what, what do we do with it? How can, as a church, how can we, yeah. Speaker 4 06:55 Yeah. Well, like I was saying, it's as a part of that person as anything else as of anyone else, right? Yeah. So, um, Speaker 5 07:03 <inaudible> Speaker 4 07:05 you just can't be surprised. Would be, would be a good start. And, uh, Speaker 0 07:14 not acting shocked in like, Oh my, Speaker 4 07:16 yeah. Like that. Yeah. Out there. It's not, lots of people struggle this way. Um, it's just not been addressed ever. And I don't like to even make it, uh, um, elevate it as just another thing in my mind. Right. It's just another way of brokenness. Yeah. Um, so, but definitely to accept a person for so, so the, when I look at Jesus' example on me, the, the, uh, realization that I'm loved Speaker 5 07:56 <inaudible> Speaker 4 07:57 and the realization that I am accepted exactly the way I am is what changed my life because I never felt accepted or good enough as I was, I was a perfectionist, always trying to be better. And Jesus broke that in me. I still like perfect things, but that's like couldn't manage. Now I can have a perfectionist that's really difficult to be around, if that makes sense. Um, so, so I have to look out Jesus' example and, and how my life changed because of what he showed me. Speaker 6 08:38 Um, Speaker 4 08:40 I would say those two were key. Speaker 6 08:43 Hmm. Speaker 4 08:45 His love and his acceptance and acceptance. Yes, as I was. Speaker 6 08:52 Yeah. Speaker 0 08:53 And so maybe we almost like we can listen to that and hear that and think, okay, let's model love and acceptance to others, but it's not necessarily going to be felt unless where we know that of Jesus as well. Right. Speaker 4 09:08 That's right. Yeah. That's right. A person who hasn't experienced that can't, can't emulate it. Yeah, that's right. Speaker 6 09:16 Yeah. That's powerful. What I'm Speaker 3 09:21 <inaudible> Speaker 0 09:25 how, how would you, this maybe putting you on the spot a little bit, I've already put you on the spot and sharing your story of if you could have written this story of your churches Speaker 3 09:39 <inaudible> Speaker 0 09:42 know you sharing with your church and, and then instead of them excommunicating you, what would you, how would you have written it or what do you think would have felt like a much more meaningful Speaker 6 09:55 kind of a Speaker 0 09:57 icing on the cake of what Jesus is doing in your life? Kind of <inaudible> Speaker 4 10:00 yeah. Yeah. The, the, the uh, the opportunity to testify would have, would have, um, would have done it. Yeah. Uh, cause that was my heart's desire. I couldn't keep quiet about what Jesus had done in my life. And I wanted one to know, know that Jesus can do this because I didn't know. And now I did. And I hadn't felt like I really heard from anyone else. And I was wondering if they know. Speaker 6 10:28 Yeah, yeah. Um, Speaker 4 10:31 but just the, the chance to say that I was in bondage and Jesus set me free. That is, that's what I want to, yeah. Um, for me personally cause that's what happened. Now, um, if someone is on a different path where, where the struggle is, is more longer than that, you know, it's a different journey for every person and we have to be okay as the church with however that journey goes for each person. Speaker 6 11:01 Yeah, yeah. Um, Speaker 0 11:05 but let them, let them share about what God is doing. Speaker 4 11:10 Yeah. Speaker 6 11:11 Okay. Speaker 0 11:12 Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, we all want to be able to tell our stories and Speaker 5 11:19 yeah. Speaker 0 11:22 What, um, I, I have some questions that could, could almost be a podcast to themselves, but, um, this, the, the part of your story that really intrigues me because I think it pricks at some misconceptions in our American or Western mindset view of sexuality. You, you've, you said at the beginning that you were born this way, you don't remember the, you don't know if it was tied with the early abuse that you had or not. It was just, and I've heard from others maybe can someday have them on the podcast as well, but who, like kind of the stereotypical person who struggles with same sex attraction is well maybe abused or like has a really domineering mom and a passive dad or something that like, there's some kind of dysfunction going on, which I, I've heard stories that are like that, that, and even even yours involves a level of abuse and so forth. So not discrediting that, but, but there's also stories of just normal, seemingly healthy homes and a guy or girl struggles with the same sex desires, a sexual attraction to someone of their same, same gender. Um, forget why I was making that distinction. Um, but the, Speaker 0 12:59 the thing that intrigues me is though that was an early experience for you. You still went on and got married even though you also said you've never lusted after woman or you never, I assumed that meant desired sex. And so talk about that a little bit. Like what was the process with that? Speaker 4 13:25 It's because I didn't want my mom to be washing my clothes when I'm 40. Speaker 0 13:29 Okay. You, it was a part of that Speaker 4 13:34 you need to get married. It's also culturally acceptable and that's what you do. And I wanted a family. Yeah. But like I was saying, that was a different thing than the struggle of me married. So, um, on the note about lusting after Speaker 0 13:52 a woman, Speaker 4 13:54 I feel like a lot of a heterosexual Speaker 0 14:00 relationships Speaker 4 14:03 are driven more by lust than the, than, than the man ever realizes. Speaker 0 14:07 It's exactly what I was gonna try to poke a little bit. Speaker 4 14:11 And I feel like the justify it because they're a man and it's just how you are. Because if I sit in a brothers meeting and say that man, I just am Lessing a lot after all the guys on the sidewalks in the summer because of all their, a short sleeves and shorts and, and uh, Speaker 3 14:36 <inaudible> Speaker 4 14:38 please pray for me. I think that the response would be get a grip, take ownership. And so, you know, not having struggled with less towards women, that's the response kind of in my heart when I hear other heterosexual men, you know, justify the loss in their, in their life. It's kind of, that's kind of how it sounds to me. Yeah. Speaker 0 15:05 Yeah. Speaker 4 15:06 But I think they fool themselves into thinking that this is like the godly and right way to lust. So that makes sense. Speaker 0 15:16 Yeah. And I think, I think there's a lot of Speaker 3 15:19 <inaudible>, Speaker 0 15:21 godly and right way to lesson. Yeah. Even, even a lot of guys, um, having sex with their wives were, like you said, it's, it's actually lust acting out on our lust and a selfish, yeah. We think of losses as being a desire for someone that's not our wife, but it's really a desire to satisfy a sexual thing. Yeah. For me, it's all about me. That's right. Yeah. Speaker 4 15:51 Yeah. So I think that that line gets blurred a lot. Um, Speaker 3 15:56 <inaudible> Speaker 0 15:59 and so maybe you had more thoughts, you were gonna share, ran away. Like I, I am really two things I'd love to hear more like this. Obviously, no doubt had to be monumental for your wife. Um, in so many ways. Like obviously you touched on it, the, the disillusionment with her, with her own dad, was there, was there at all a struggles in your own marriage to, to trust you or, or was it you coming free and being open and honest? Did it almost kinda like, ah, release some of the air that was maybe there, but just seemed kind of normal. Speaker 4 16:46 It totally changed their marriage better for like big time. Um, my wife trusts me and that humbles me because shouldn't, um, you know, I, I've, uh, proven on faithful, um, the change in me was so big that it helped offset those things. Yeah. Um, definitely were things to go through. Definitely struggles after she knew what my struggle was and where I'd been. Um, and, and that's, that's the devil trying to, um, destroy our relationship now. Yeah. It really is what that is. And he's trying to do that to every relationship out there. So that's just the way that he tries to destroy ours. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, we're happily married. Yeah. Yeah. It's or, or relationship keeps growing. It's this crazy, you know, uh, it hasn't stopped. Yeah. Speaker 0 17:52 And, and just to clarify, like any, any one of us guys who have lusted have been on fee have proven on faithful to our wives. Speaker 4 18:02 That's right. That's right. Speaker 6 18:05 And Speaker 4 18:06 so there's very little difference between thinking in your mind and actually doing there. There's virtually no difference. I <inaudible> I have 20, 20 vision on that. There, there really isn't much difference. The only differences is doing, Speaker 6 18:21 yeah. Yeah. Speaker 4 18:22 Because I realized full thought would if it could. Speaker 6 18:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And that Speaker 0 18:28 the fact that it's just a thought, if we can repent and turn away there actually can save some incredible damage. Speaker 4 18:38 Yes. Then the consequences are very different. Yeah. The, like the real life ramifications are, but the actual, the, the, the spiritual aspect of the doing is nothing is the exact same. Yeah. Speaker 0 18:53 And I think like something that I thought about is as you were sharing is that there's a lot of guys, a lot of us who are tempted, like I, I think the fact that you, well, I don't know, it just seems kind of significant that you didn't even see. You were kind of surprised that the guy suggested you should share with your wife. And so you did, I forget if you said why, um, just cause he said so or Speaker 4 19:23 it's just that, so, yeah. Yeah. Speaker 0 19:26 And, but you were sharing, you were talking with him because you were at the end of yourself and you wanted free. Whereas I think there can be a temptation when we're married to, to talk with our spouse as a, a feeling of getting this off our chest, like this and that, and we're not actually at the end of ourselves yet. Right. And that builds distrust. Speaker 4 19:51 Right. So they find out, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, yeah. Speaker 6 19:58 Okay. Speaker 0 19:58 Go for it. Go for it. Speaker 4 20:00 I can't relate to that because it doesn't happen to us. Um, but I definitely, that would definitely, that would build this trust. Speaker 6 20:08 Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 4 20:10 Because now did you mean that or doesn't yet, you know, and then then do it. But uh, Speaker 6 20:17 yeah. Yeah. Speaker 0 20:20 So what is, Speaker 0 20:23 and he, and here's the thing that I think could be explored more in depth at time, but I would, I would like to just get some, some thoughts. What is the purpose of sex? Because we see Mary like the, the, when we go to get married, kind of the traditional popular mainstream thing is on now we can have sex and we can even like what's the purpose of family? You touched on how you want it to have a family and so you need to marry a lady in order to have a family. Um, but I think in a lot of ways Speaker 6 21:06 we, uh, <inaudible> Speaker 0 21:07 any more are kind of centered around sex having sex and families, like a biblical byproduct of that and marriage is the, the proper, Speaker 4 21:20 yup. Speaker 0 21:21 What we're after is sex and it's fascinating. Yeah. Just to hear you, like, do you now feel sexually attracted to your wife? Or, and maybe, maybe it'd be better to have you both in on this conversation, but like what, what is, because I think there's some lessons to learn in that. Um, what is the purpose of sex? Yeah. Speaker 4 21:45 Yeah. It has the, I mean, it has definitely changed my view on sex and lust in marriage and all those things in a big way because we have now the opportunity to having the experience we had and, and learning from it, but I don't understand God completely. He's pretty cool that he created sex. I think that's, that's awesome. And uh, you know, unique. I mean, the whole idea is pretty intriguing, right? Yeah. When you think about it, I'm a God level as created by God and good. Um, and when we, yeah, it's, and then we have Jesus in the bride and we're supposed to love her wife, like Christ loved the church and it's like, what does that look like? Hmm. You know, um, eh, the marriage relationship includes sex and art, but that's, it's a, the sex is about fulfilling your partner. Speaker 6 22:48 Hmm. Speaker 4 22:51 And when that mission is accomplished, you have been fulfilled. Speaker 6 22:56 Wow. Speaker 4 22:57 Yeah. And in a greater way than, than you would have otherwise. So, and, uh, children happen because of it, um, as well, which is also mandated and scripture. Um, but sex to please yourself is definitely not the, definitely not the, the reason why sex was created for marriage, I don't think. Um, Speaker 6 23:30 yeah. The, Speaker 4 23:32 I don't know if that would make sense. Speaker 0 23:34 Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense to me. I think it's, I think if we're honest, that's kind of not the default way we view <inaudible> Speaker 4 23:46 no, not the way we come is not the way we're programmed at all. Yeah. Um, what motivates most of sex as a selfish desire for sex? Yeah, definitely. And I'm not saying that it is wrong to desire sex, but, uh, but it should be motivated insects that should be motivated to, um, ultimately your partner or your partner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 0 24:16 It's like the most, a physical, intimate culmination of a relationship experience. Speaker 4 24:24 Yes. And just like, and it's beautiful in that context because the world and, and the devil will portray sex as something for yourself. So how do we enjoy that? Um, how do we enjoy that when we have the world's terms in our mind, right. We have to get a clear grip on, on what it is and that it's good and it's healthy and it's God created in our day. Then he wants to enjoy it on its terms. It's very beautiful. Yeah. Yep. Speaker 0 25:00 And just like Jesus came, he was equal with God, but he didn't grasp that he came to earth and became obedient even to the cross dying. Like that's kind of the intimate, most physical expression of God's love for us, his creation. And then we take that and we in our sex, we give that love to our partner. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's powerful. Speaker 6 25:33 Um, Speaker 0 25:36 what would, if so did, did sex, whether it's before you met Jesus or even now? Speaker 6 25:44 Oh yeah. If I'm Speaker 0 25:47 let, let's, let's go back to thinking when you felt desire for men, would sex with your wife ease that at all? Speaker 4 25:55 No. No, no. Completely separate. But it would ease the sex drive for a day or whatever, but yeah. But just though hormones, no way to fill the desire for sex with men, that was that. That was not something that I gave up trying. Right. Yeah. That's ultimately what led me to Jesus. Yeah. I was trying and failing in that area to meet that need. It was just not possible. Speaker 6 26:21 Yeah. Speaker 4 26:23 Yeah. Speaker 0 26:24 It's really interesting. Oh, and I wonder how many of us are living in, and we're using sex to fill a need that is intended to be met by God. Speaker 4 26:39 My God. It's very possible. Yes, it is. Yeah. We have to examine ourself. Speaker 6 26:46 <inaudible> <inaudible> Speaker 0 26:48 so what would you, maybe, maybe just to wrap up our time here, if you're, if you're talking with a single guys, anybody single who's not married. Speaker 6 27:02 Um, Speaker 0 27:03 so in other words, they can't have sexual intimacy with another person, but they're facing same sex attraction. What, what, what is your word to them? Or what is, I mean, obviously as you just said, just if, if you're a guy being married isn't gonna change that necessarily. That's a different thing. Speaker 4 27:26 A realization that God loves you will change you. And, and validating that kind of person is very powerful for them. Wow. Um, to say that, no, even in your failures, you are loved by God. I go, yeah. You can't do anything to change that. Wow. Um, for, for a person to hear that out loud is, is validating and because they're doubting themselves, how am I even a Kristin with what I'm doing or into, or did or have done? It's great when the stories like mine where you're free in a day of bam, off you go. Amazing. But it's not the reality for lots of people. Yeah. And send as soon as we elevate one over another and God doesn't. Yeah. So, you know, um, all those built in reactions that we get when we fail, work against us coming to actual freedom we have to do and say the things I seem like the wrong thing to say at that point in time. We like to validate the guy who's doing a great job, you know, and the one who's doing the worst job is the one who needs it the most. And that we'll build him out of it. Yeah. Speaker 4 28:54 I mean there's, there's lots of things that pull the kind of factor until, until that, those kinds of lists, because there's no cookie cutter. Yeah, yeah. Thing. But, uh, the approval of God in a person's life is huge. Speaker 0 29:07 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Speaker 4 29:11 It's not approved by God than done is pointless. Yeah. Speaker 5 29:15 Yeah. Speaker 0 29:18 And it reminds me of Galatians six I think it is, that talks about bearing one another's burdens, um, Speaker 5 29:25 where Speaker 0 29:27 the burden that is leading us to sin, we're, we're as God, as other godly men, we're supposed to surround that person and bear that burden with them. And I think we can sometimes think that means, you know, confronting them and pointing out how bad it is. But what I'm hearing you say, I think it should actually be surrounding them and reminding them of God's approval, God's love. Speaker 4 29:54 We need to turn them to Jesus. Cause that's the only thing that will change them. And they're already turning away from him when they're rejecting themselves about what they've done. They already know they're failed and more of that won't bring any freedom at all. Yeah. The only thing that will bring them freedom is drawing to Christ. And they can't wait till draw to Christ until they're perfect or they'll never get there. Yeah. That's workspace. So salvation, right? Yeah. So it's, yeah. Speaker 0 30:25 Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Ken, for, for sharing. Um, I'm sure we could keep talking more. Maybe we can have you on again sometime, but, um, anything else, any final thoughts or words that you have that Speaker 4 30:45 thanks so much and, uh, yeah, it's just all about Jesus. That is, that's, that's, that's where it begins and ends and, and, uh, if you're struggling with this, you're not alone is just not true. Yeah. And Jesus is cheeses. The answer. That's all I have to say. Yeah. And anything else, we'll dilute it. Speaker 0 31:11 Amen. Amen. Yes. Thank you. Thanks for sharing. And I'm sure there's going to be quite a few people who, um, several things maybe just have some questions or I'm sure there's going to be people who resonate with the story. And so I would love, I welcome any feedback you have as a listener. Um, you can reach out to [email protected] I'd also, Ken, is it okay if people contact you if they have questions or maybe they, they're just, they're smack in the middle of this with you, with you as similar story or something and work. How can they reach you? Speaker 4 31:52 Uh, good question. Um, where am I? I'm on. I don't know. Are you going to link me on the blogger? Yeah, yeah, I'll go way. Should I get send you my email address? Sure, yeah. If the email we've been going back and forth on, should I drop that? Sure. Um, yeah. You know what? I'll send you a different one. Okay. I'm going to have to create one. I don't have a personal email account. Okay. Yeah. Are you good with that? Yeah, no, that was fine. I just think that's a less why I'm here now. Yeah. And I, and I know how to help point people to Jesus, but I, I don't have that same story and I know the power of, of walking with someone who's, who has a similar story. And so I'd love if they can, if they do want to reach out, they can contact you. I'll drop Speaker 1 32:44 the, um, the link or the email and so forth in the podcast notes on the blog as well. Yeah, thanks for being on. Yeah. Speaker 2 32:55 <inaudible> Speaker 1 33:10 Hey, thanks for listening. I just wanted to touch base there at the end. We discussed a email that you can <inaudible> you Speaker 0 33:17 contact Ken. If you have any further questions or just want to reach out to him, feel free to reach out to [email protected] that's [email protected] spelled B. R U. B. A. C. H. E. R for Brewbaker. Also, we discussed quite at length in the episode, um, Ken's relationship with his father in law and how his father-in-law was the one who proposed sex, sexual interaction with him and be on the lookout for and future episode because his father in law has a testimony to share as well. Both he and Ken are walking in freedom and in victory today and Jesus has done a marvelous work in their lives. And I, I hope to have Ken's father-in-law on the show as well in the near future. Hopefully. So definitely be on the lookout. Just wanted to clarify that. I don't think it came across super clear in the episode. We just praise Jesus for what he is doing in the lives of Ken and his father in law. Thanks for listening.