Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:22 All right. Welcome back to unfeigned Christianity, where we are reconciling our human experiences with God and his word so that we can love from a pure heart, a good conscience and sincere faith. There's perhaps no human experience, more disillusioning than when you're struggling with sexual confusion or sexual bondage or sexual gender dysphoria. A couple of months ago, I interviewed Darnell war and Abraham Martin on their experience as men facing sex attraction. I think we can all identify with certain sexual struggles of one kind or another. The one that doesn't get talked about a whole lot is when someone's facing same sex attraction. How should Christians think about same-sex attraction? How should we respond to people facing sex attraction? We get into all of that and more in today's episode. And just as a way of reminder, this was originally recorded for my members at Patrion. So what you are getting today is a, an abbreviated version of the interview. If you would like to access the whole interview, consider becoming a member on Patrion, just visit www dot Asher Whitmer forward slash member. You can sign up for $10 a month and access all expanded versions of these episodes, as well as deep dive essays twice a month, but without too much more ado, let's get into my interview with Abraham and Darnell.
Speaker 1 00:02:02 We have Darnell roar from Pennsylvania and Habram Martin from Texas. Thank you guys for joining me this evening.
Speaker 2 00:02:10 It's good to be here.
Speaker 1 00:02:14 I invited them on to, uh, discuss, uh, same-sex attraction and just, uh, sexuality, gender, the different complexities that are involved in that. Maybe just to give a little primer, if you are completely new to this conversation. I want to just clarify that. I think all three of us would uphold a historically Christian view of marriage as being between a man and a woman for life. Um, I know that's, that's a place where I am at, but I've also discovered, and I think largely in writing about my own sexual journey and, and, um, struggling with loss and so forth. I started getting questions about guys, you deal with same-sex attraction and that kind of opened my eyes to the reality that there's a significant number of us who deal with this. A lot of our books on sexuality and purity and so forth. Don't always give a very fair representation of what it's like to struggle with same-sex attraction.
Speaker 1 00:03:26 I think, I think maybe I'll just leave it at that. And so that's kind of why I wanted to, to enter this conversation and why don't we just, uh, maybe Abraham, I'll start with you. And if you want to just give a little introduction to your own journey, Abraham has shared on the, uh, that Jesus podcast with, um, drew Latin and Titus Kip for, they are, uh, good friends of mine as well. And so I, I don't hesitate at all to give a shout out to them. I think, I think you've shared more extensively in two different episodes on there that I will link afterward. Once we get off of this, I will link those episodes to it. But yeah, Erin, why don't you just share at least a brief introduction to some of your journey and how you, I guess maybe one of the questions I would have is to get us going is how, when did you discover that you were same sex attraction? What, what was that experience like?
Speaker 2 00:04:26 Yeah, I think for me, like I first probably started recognizing that I was different than other boys, I would say around 10 or 11. And probably as I got to more, the age of 14, 15, I realized that as the other guys were starting to become attractive to girls and they talk about that, like, that was not part of my experience. And I've kind of felt towards guys, like they taught, you know, they've thought about hers. And I started to sense that I had an attraction to guys. Yeah. I think really, probably around 13 or 14. And at that time, like I knew a little bit what the term gay meant. Like I knew that, yeah. I mean, I learned that on the school playground where w you know, where I learned about a lot of things. And so I think as I got into my lower teens, mid teens, I recognize that, that I am attracted to guys that I am gay in a sense, like I knew that were, I knew that was probably me, but I tried, I definitely didn't want anybody else to know at that time I was already addicted to pornography and, uh, you know, suppler.
Speaker 2 00:05:46 So I was gonna make sure nobody ever found out what type of pornography I looked at. Um, so it wasn't, you know, there was no like, um, and then, uh, around 17, um, I started acting out sexually with another guy. So that was, and I talk a lot about that in my interview on teaching. So I'll, I'll kinda, I'll let people go listen to that more depth there. But, so that was really, that went on until I was 19 or 20. And that around that time is when I left the church. I was a part of, and there were some other things in my life that changed and I, I stopped acting out sexually, but, um, you know, it was still a date, the pornography for a number of years after that. And so that's kind of been my journey. So it's been pretty early on that.
Speaker 2 00:06:39 I've known that I'm attracted to guys, and it wasn't something that, you know, as much as I tried to change all of those things by addiction, you know, Asher, your book has been pretty helpful, uh, was helpful in my journey. Uh, and so there's been a lot of things that have been helpful, but just like what you said, like a lot of the books that deal with pornography kind of point to towards, well, just, you know, figure out how to, to cure this until you can be married to a woman. And like, let's, let's get this behind you so that you can be married to a woman and fulfill your urges that way. And I was always like, well, that really doesn't address my situation where what I am attracted to and what my addiction, my, the problem with lust is it's not something that, you know, with my reading of scripture, with my convictions, that I could ever live those out.
Speaker 2 00:07:36 Um, so I think that's something that a lot of those books did in the draft, or if they did, it was just a little passing kind of paragraph. And, and so it was really, that was kind of hard, I think, to, to not really know, and to not know who I could talk to about it, you know, it was, I didn't know if I could, could I trust my pastor, it could have died? You know, it could, I, if I was going to tell some of my friends, like I could tell them about the pornography addiction, and most of them had their own pornography addiction or had in the past. And so we were able to have conversations about that, but there was always that lingering. Like if I tell them more about myself, like, is that it's not going to be the line, like, is that, is that where the projection is going to come in?
Speaker 2 00:08:24 And so fearing that rejection, like that's, for me, why I did the podcast with Tate T JP, that's why I'm ready to talk about it now is if I can help a 17 or 18 year old young guy that's, that's, you know, coming of age and he's, he knows these things and he doesn't know who he can trust. He doesn't know, like he there's no one he can look to, you know, like there was no one I knew in the Mennonite world that that's, that was open about ha uh, experiencing same sex attraction or struggling with that. Um, there, you know, there just wasn't and honestly, I think maybe Asher for you, like when you were growing up, it was maybe the same way with pornography where you did know a lot of guys that were open about their past addiction to pornography. Um, so I think, I think those are conversations that are going to need to be had, and continue to need to be had as we go forward, because the world's having them. And if we're not having them in the church, um, they're, you know, it's, it's going to just be increasingly harder and it's just going to be increasingly harder to avoid the conversation too, like for people that don't want to have it.
Speaker 1 00:09:40 Yeah. Yeah. I have a couple of questions to jump on quick, and then, uh, I'll get to Darnell, but I just, just to, to hear you a little bit more on it, um, I, I completely agree with you that we need to be having these conversations so that because they w people and our young people and people come after us are gonna face it more and more because the world is talking about it. What would you say? Cause the fear of rejection, like, was it just the lack of not having the conversation or were there things being communicated through a one-on-one dialogue or even through over the pulpit messages or, or in some of the books, like, can you identify something or was it just kind of a general fear of being rejected? Like, like we all do just like me opening up about pornography. Like that is a scary thing, but I'm just curious, what, is there more that kind of fed that? Or is it just, uh, the mystery of it all?
Speaker 2 00:10:48 I think, I think definitely just recognize some that it's different and knowing that for most people it's not their experience and you just don't know how people are going to react. I mean, I might've heard one sermon preached again, you know, where that was specifically mentioned in my one or two, you know, sits like growing up sexuality was never mentioned in servants at all. And then when I left the older setting, you know, you'd hear it mentioned, but homosexuality specifically, maybe twice in the survey. So it wasn't really that you were getting sermon after sermon on the culture war or, you know, where, you know, the gay agenda was being mentioned. Like you, you rarely heard that. Um, I think more just, um, you know, even when it came up on the school playground, it was always making fun of people. And there was a lot of mocking, there was a lot of joking about, you know, where guys are kidding each other about being gay and all of those things.
Speaker 2 00:11:54 Like it was more of that. So it was more just people's conversation, their attitude, the way they made that may the way made a joke out of it like that, that more kind of showed it, sent the message, whether they wanted it to, or not. It sent the message that, that this is something that is different. It's weird that they don't understand it. And that, you know, it's those days that it was kind of references those people. And so, um, it just, it didn't feel safe like you did, it feels safe to tell those people because you didn't know how we're going to react. And so, you know, that's, I think that's one of the things where it's hard for other people to realize like, well, you know, I made this joke and it was just a joke, like, yeah. And I knew it was just a joke, but it was also, it also kind of sent a message that I don't know, like, is this person safe now because I've heard them make these comments and, and they can, in their mind, they were never addressing them.
Speaker 2 00:13:00 That me, you know, it, I always think about it differently because like I know of people that will make racial jokes that would never make those jokes in front of a black person. But the difference is with gay, like, you don't know, who's gay, who's same sex attracted into as like you just don't. And so you might be a preacher preaching a sermon about homosexuality, and you're referencing those people out there and you might have a young guy or young girl in your congregation that experiences that, and they might be internalizing everything you're saying. Um, and I think it's the same way when you're telling a joke or when you're making some kind of comment, like whether it's online or not, like there's probably people reading that comment that are same sex attracted, and now you just sent the message that you're not a safe person, because, because you made a joke about something that to them is very personal.
Speaker 1 00:13:58 Yeah. Darnell, why don't you jump in and share some of your experience or, or maybe at least. Yeah. When, at what age did you discover that you face some same-sex attractions?
Speaker 3 00:14:12 Okay. So spend a little bit of a journey for me to even narrow that down. But I would say probably the first experience I remember was probably around eight or 10. Um, I stumbled across pornographic material that I wasn't taking out even. And it was, it was same sex yeah. Pornography, but, and I realized like, looking back, like that was, that was extremely pleasurable for me. Um, that's probably multiple reasons for that, because at a young age it's just stimulating. But, but looking back, I would say that's, that's probably the first, the first time that I, yeah. Yeah. And even at that point, I didn't, I had no idea what gay was and in sexuality wasn't talked about. So I didn't know what that looked like until probably 12, 14 as I began to experiment and dig deeper into whatever forms of satisfaction I could find. Um, yeah. I heard the jokes, a lot of jokes.
Speaker 3 00:15:32 I was super sensitive, so I've picked up a lot, but yeah. So my story, um, the first time that I actually like talked to someone about it, I think was 16 years old. Um, it was extremely difficult to, to see myself talking out loud about it. It wasn't the fact that I was finally ready to it. Wasn't the fact that I trusted somebody necessarily, but I was, I could not physically carry myself. That was what, that was, what caused me to step out, even though I didn't really have full chance to share. And it ended up being a very grateful, I've had a fairly good first experience with talking about. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:24 Yeah. Sorry. I'm trying to get some, some people the link here who are wondering how to access the live. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. What, what would you say I'm trying to, so the question I want to ask is what causes, um, same-sex attraction, you, you both talk about dealing with same-sex pornography and that being early on, I forget, uh, a room I should've been listening better. Was that, was that what got you? Is that kinda what woke you up to it as well?
Speaker 2 00:17:03 Um, not necessarily. I mean, I think it was like, I kind of knew it before I have access pornography because I don't think I saw my first pornography until I was like 15. Um, and I, I would have known already at 10 or so that I was that same sex attracted. So yeah, it definitely like, it was kind of there and I didn't really have words for it at that time. Like it just, I just knew that I was different and I just knew that, you know, the way other guys or the way that guys talk about girls and girls, they liked and whatever, like girls, they thought were hot or whatever that meant that that was kinda how I felt about does like that has. Yeah. So that was, that was kinda what I knew. And then, yeah, the first pornography was around 15 and that like, I, that was a magazine beside the road that I found that had kind of both in like both types of pornography in there. And I knew like, or, uh, I don't know if it was both typed, but just like, I, it was both male and female and I was drawn to the male. So that was kind of when it really like sell it in that. Okay. Yeah. This is what I've known. I've been different. Like, but this is what it is like. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:18:25 Yeah. Yeah. I, my stereotype that I would have lived with for a lot of my growing up is that someone's you, um, is same-sex attracted, had a really passive dad and a really aggressive mother mother, and maybe experienced some kind of sexual abuse at some point in their life. And I've, I've just discovered as I hear more and more firsthand accounts that like, that's not always the case. I mean, one of the guys that reached out to me was like, his, his family is really healthy. He does not have a passive dad. His mom is he's never been sexually abused. And so I'm just curious. Um, so the, the question is what causes sexual same-sex attraction, but, but then we also kind of have to talk about like, what is attraction as opposed to, um, yeah. Maybe, maybe, maybe those are two different questions and we'll get into the second one. Um, but as opposed to lust and sexual desire and attraction, like, how do we differentiate? Is that even right to differentiate between all of those, but maybe just to back up a little bit, like what causes same sex attraction, what is your guys' take on?
Speaker 2 00:19:47 Yeah, I mean, I think, I think those, one of the things that I say to push back against that stereotype or that thing gets slumped and promulgated about, about, you know, the daddy issues thing. Like there's many, many guys I know that are very straight, that have a ton of daddy issues. And they medicate on those issues with, by either relationships with women, with multiple women or acting out with pornography or anger issues, or like a whole host of things. And they're very straight, so decide idea that a certain type of daddy issue as a passive dad or an absent dad somehow causes homosexuality the hot, the rate of homosexuality should be a whole lot higher than it is if that's the case. Like, so that to me just doesn't, it doesn't fly at all. Um, the whole thing about an overbearing mom, like, I, I don't know, like, or, or even guys that, you know, they'll say that guys that were more drawn to like where their mom kind of sheltered them or any of those things.
Speaker 2 00:20:52 Like, I, again, I don't think those that is an indication at all. You know? I mean, I think every little boy needs his mom and I'm sure moms can overdo it in, in some of those things. But the idea that like department always annoys me about that is it makes parents who have gay children or same sex attracted children. Like it makes them feel guilty. And the mom's like, why showed him too much affection? No, like, is there really such a thing? Like, I don't know. Like I think that that's the problem. That's the biggest problem I have is it makes get parents feel guilty and that's just not necessarily like, um, the what causes it for me, what I look at it is that it's probably a combination of things. It probably is somewhat genetic. Uh, there is, that's been long research it's the evidence is not as composed as some people would like it to be.
Speaker 2 00:21:51 So I don't think we can say it's primarily genetic. Uh, there's probably something to do with very, very early on in childhood. And this is like from when I is still in the mother's womb to first like three to four years of life, that there's something that happened. Something that I'm not sure, like there's, there's some, there's some conclusion or something. So I think either way, like, I think it's something that if it, if it is something that's not genetic, or if it's a combination of both, it's something that happens very early in childhood, like at three or four, that kind of sets that trajectory. And what I would say, like for myself, like I've had, I've had, um, I've never really had like a really great relationship with my dad and that has definitely given me problems. It's definitely, I think part of what caused me to act out, but I don't know that that has anything to do with my orientation. Um, because again, like I said to me, the evidence there is that there should be a whole lot more gay guys out there that if it's, if daddy issues or is what causes it,
Speaker 1 00:23:02 Just, just to clarify a little bit, when you say genetics that it's somewhat, or maybe mostly genetic, or are you saying, um, biological or when, when I hear genetic, I think like your kids will now struggle with it more and more like runs in the family.
Speaker 2 00:23:21 It's not that as much as it is just something that, that, that happens as, yeah. I mean, there's, there's some certain things that are passed down genetically that only show up in certain, like there's something that you can pass to your children tonight that might not show up till four generations later or whatever, like there's, so I'm not sure, like, again, I'd have to go back and look at there's, there's, I've read different opinions on that. And I don't think there's a ton of evidence that there is something biological or genetic that's passed down, um, at the same time. So I think it probably has more to do with, um, it could have something to do with, uh, the certain condition in the womb. Like there's been, there's been different scientific hypotheses that I've read that have come to different conclusions on that. So it's, it's not the evidence, like kind of the, the science around that still pretty inconclusive.
Speaker 1 00:24:25 Yeah, yeah. That, that, um, I can echo that I've done. I'm sure you've done more reading than I have, but some, some of what I've done, as well as that showed that it's basically, you know, the whole nature versus nurture debate or whatever, it's, it's kind of, you have to acknowledge that there's aspects of both.
Speaker 2 00:24:50 Well, and I think here's, here's the reason people want to have this discussion. And I think this is to me, what it comes down to is people, certain kind of people will S the reason they want to really propagate the whole daddy issues theory. And, you know, the straw, the overbearing mother theory is because they then want to say, well, if you can go back and you can do counseling to heal those areas, it'll make you straight. And that's the, that's the part that I think has been really harmful, um, because whatever, pause it, whatever, you know, whether it's, yeah, whatever that is, the dip. I think the thing is that it's hard for people to assess including ourselves is that this might be something I experienced the rest of my life. Like God has not promised that he'll take this away from me. And that's, I think what people have a lot harder time with, they, they, they want this to be something that they can fix.
Speaker 2 00:25:51 And if they can, if they can come up with a theory about what causes it, and then they could come up with a theory that reverses that, then that's kind of that's I think where, why this is for some people, this is such a big deal, uh, in, in that they're having to be this cause or something that we can, or it's something they can prevent, you know, like, which again, you know, that that's part of comes back to parents being guilty, like parents who are already going to be guilty about enough stuff, they don't need to have the guilt of, I turned my son gay.
Speaker 3 00:26:29 Yeah. I would just echo parts of that. Um, I'm the stereotypical guy. I mean, I grew up in a pretty difficult home situation. And so that, that has been a, of a lot of, some of the first responses is, okay. So, so let's look at your life. Let's, let's go back and let's, and, and that's the place now where I'm like, I'm not sure if I care about necessarily, because I think earlier on I did, and I'm not saying it's an unimportant question, but there's so much more to the conversation that, that if we get hung up on this, on this question, I see people not moving forward. And I think that's, that's a lot like, so, cause yeah, I think it's as wide as you can spread your arms. I think there's, there's a lot that plays into it. Um, I also like when a writer that I'm reading quotes, something that connects with what I already believe bill Henson would, would, would, um, become very fond of him.
Speaker 3 00:27:40 He's guiding families. Um, and he said the origins of sexual orientation and gender identity are highly complex multifactorial and likely rooted in both nurture and nature for any one person. It can be impossible to know the exact cause I propose that we shift our focus from causation to compassion. So for me, again, I'm not against the question of cause, but yeah, it's like, okay, when I hear my friends say, or people that are trying that are learning to walk and they're like, well, it's like, what, what do you get that I'm like, okay, like I'm beyond that. Some people aren't, but for me personally, my journey let's move forward.
Speaker 1 00:28:29 Hey folks, I just wanted to take this time and say, thank you for listening. It is fun for me to be able to sit down and interview people. But I really hope that these interviews and these podcasts episodes are helpful to you in your journey as you sort through issues and, and try to reconcile your human experiences with God and what he says through his word. I would love to hear feedback from you. Obviously every episode has an email address in the description. So if you want to shoot me an email message, let me know what you're thinking. What has stood out to you, whether positive or negative, another really helpful way is to rate and review it on whatever podcast platform you're listening to. If it's on iTunes, I know you have the capability of rating it as well as leaving a review. I would love to hear whether it's good or negative feedback, but even if all you can do is give a thumbs up or a star rating, go ahead and do that.
Speaker 1 00:29:18 Whether it's one star or five stars, a thumbs up or thumbs down that helps me know kind of where you guys are at and how it's landing on you guys and whether or not these are being helpful and meaningful for you. It is my desire to facilitate a safe place for processing through some fairly deep issues in life. And I hope that it's been that for you. I'd love to hear what your experience has been like with Christianity podcast. Thanks for taking the time to give a response. Thanks for taking the time to listen. It is a privilege to be able to provide these each week for you all. So that, that leads me to the third question. And or the second question, are we two questions in we're already like 40 minutes in and, um, but this is, this is a question that I have gotten probably the most private messaging about anytime I share a social media post or, um, link somebody else's writing on it or something that at all gives space for.
Speaker 1 00:30:27 I mean, even, even in the terminology that we've used already this evening, like some people would take issue with that. Um, same sex attraction or a gay, uh, is, is same sex attraction is probably in more palatable terms than gay even, um, where it feels like we are embracing something that is wrong. Like the saying, or the way it goes is that scripture is clear. Like this is sin, this is lust and you're supposed to, to overcome lust. And so, and, and so then the, the thing I find tricky in those conversations is how do I help them explore the difference between lust and just general attraction? Like is, is attraction, lust, like is, is a desire that, um, like we don't even have control over and this, this is gay straight people, period. Like any kind of desire you don't have that moment of like, oh, I'm going to choose to want this. You just, all of a sudden discover that it's in there is that a sign of sin in our life or evil having touched us or is, is less something, something else? What are you guys his response or thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 00:31:55 Yeah, well, I was having a hard time keeping quiet. Um, so I was thinking about this this morning as I was drinking coffee and preparing for this. And I'm like, so my brother's married. He married a wonderful girl, but like, what would have been like for me to tell him to, well, how did he get married? Like, like how did he begin his relationship? Like, like the attraction piece was not wrong for him because he was pursuing, I'm not sure I'm probably going to punch in it, but he was pursuing something that was accepted and normal in our culture. So I guess when we, if we're going to ask, yeah, if attractions wrong, then we're going to take a deep look at, at all or straight young guys that are pursuing marriage. We're trying to figure out like, like what does that look like for them? Um, traction also has various different levels, like emotional, physical, um, and beauty duties. God created. I'm just, I'm kind of rambling here, but like, like, I don't think attraction is at all the same as long as I think, I think we can set up healthy boundaries between the two. Um, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:33:26 Yeah. I think like one of the things that I, that's kind of what I prefer the term orientation, because orientation is instead of attraction. Um, maybe because that's why, like, for me, again, like the whole terminology thing, like to me, I use gay and same-sex attracted interchangeably for a reason. And that is because I don't think there's a huge difference between the terms. I know to some people there's like this big Gulf and there's this like, connotate connotation of identity with one or, or even with both, but you know, there are critics that would say it's about the same thing. And I'm like, yeah, kind of a group thing, except I don't think that there's a big problem to use either one, but I like to think, you know, have a dose orientation because there is a D I think last is one of those things that it would, if it could, you know, like, um, so in some of those things, like, I think even straight guys, they know the difference between feeling attraction to a girl or like having a girl that they see that they're like, oh, that she's beautiful.
Speaker 2 00:34:37 Or, you know, there's attraction versus loss. Like losses is fantasizing a lot of times, like last as if, if a guy's lusting after a girl he's generally gonna be fantasizing about seeing her unclosed or, you know, if she is already scantily clad, he's fantasizing about what she would look like with those clothes removed or whatever, like what it would be like to have sex with her, like that's lust. And so I think it's, to me it's kind of the same way. Like if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I've noticed, like even notice, like if I just like I'm drawn towards guys or I'm, um, like oriented or determined orientation, I kind of oriented towards like my emotional attachment is going to be more to guys than it is to girls. Not saying that I can't have good friendships with girls, but all of those things, like it's, there's going to be a difference, like for, to have a connection, to see the beauty of something it's going to be different. Yeah. So, sorry. There's some background.
Speaker 1 00:35:51 Yeah, no worries. What is, what is one thing that each of you would love your, your friends, your church community, and maybe particularly people who are straight, um, whether they're married or single or whatever, it doesn't really matter. Like, what is something that you would like, what would you like them to know? Or like, as far as walk, and I'm not just asking this for yourselves, but like, for other, for us, as we walk with other people in our lives,
Speaker 2 00:36:25 That's going to really depend on the individual. And so what I'm going to say, it's getting to know that person, like, what are their interests? What are their hobbies? What are their, what's their personality? Like, I'm somebody who loves deep conversations with people more one-on-one like, so I can have, or a small group, you know, and I can share in a big group, they'll have know if I trust, you know, but there's something about having a group of two people or just with one other person and just like having a, uh, a heart to heart, just really kinda getting, having deep conversations. Like that's something I really enjoy. I really enjoy literature. So if you ask me what book I've been reading lately, like, that's, that's, that's one way to get right to my soul. Like, you're getting to make my heart real happy if you do that.
Speaker 2 00:37:15 So all of those things, I think like that's something where I would say, like, learn to know just like a guy that loves hunting. If you ask him like, Hey, like I heard you shot a big buck, tell me that story. Like, you're going to make his day by asking him that I think the same way, like get to know whoever this person is and their interest in things outside, like show interest in them and in their life. And then as you do that, you can get onto the topic of sexuality. And once they trust you, most of us are going to be fair. Like we're going to want people to want to know, wow. Just ask, how's it going? Like, what are some things, what are things I can do to better walk alongside you was like, you know, those are questions that I haven't really been asked and I would love, I would love to have more people in my life ask those questions. And maybe it's something I need to ask of other people, you know, maybe like, as, as I'm saying that I'm indicting myself because I don't ask other people. So I think those are things that that's, that's kinda, yeah. Just, just to make it short and sweet. Like that's what I would say. Like just shown interest in that person. And as you do that, maybe ask like, Hey, how can I better? Like, how can I be a better friend? How can I better walk alongside? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:38:36 Hey listeners. I wanted to take a moment and talk to you about the unfeigned Christianity membership program. If you've been enjoying this conversation, you may be interested in learning about the unfeigned Christianity membership program as a part of the membership program, you receive expanded versions of podcasts, interviews such as this. Another thing that members get is two deep dive essays a month that look at something Christians are wrestling through. Right now, we have a lot of essays already published that you'll receive access to such as is it wrong for Christians to masturbate thinking through the black lives matter movement? What Robbie's fall tells us about how we handle brokenness in the church and many more types of deep dive essays is this sounds like something you're interested in visit www.asherwhitmer.com forward slash member and become a member today it's as cheap as $10 a month. That gives you access again to expanded podcast episodes, as well as deep dive essays, twice a month and everything that's in the archives. Again, the address is www.asherwhitmer.com forward slash member. How would you, how would you respond to someone I've had this, this statement or question presented to me twice in the last year when they, uh, that they're not going to relate to someone who is same sex attracted in the same way as they would other guys, because they don't want to create a temptation or create a whatever.
Speaker 2 00:40:05 Um, yeah. I mean, I don't really know, like, yeah. I mean the whole, that whole thing of like one, it kind of comes back to what I said. I think I said it on TJ P where I'm like, don't flatter yourself. Like we're not attracted to every guy. So chat to saw, we're not attracted to you anyway. Um, but at the same time, like I think there's, you can have a very close friendship with someone and have a healthy boundaries. And, you know, I don't know that for the straight guy that has a friend, a close friend who, same sex attracted, like in short of like undressing in front of him or suggesting they go skinny dipping. Like there's some of those things that, yeah, that probably is not a smart idea. Uh, honestly, I don't think that's really a great idea regardless, but you know, some of those things like you, you might want to interact a little differently.
Speaker 2 00:41:04 I don't know. But for the most part, I wouldn't say treat it just like you would anyone else. And, and I've had a lot of guy friends that have done that, that know about my sexuality and I, I have not experienced them treating me any differently. And that has meant a whole lot, you know, because like, I, it comes back to like, if I lost after a guide, that is not that, that falls back on me. Like, that's my issue to deal with. That's my repentance that I have to do. Like, I can't blame him for like what, you know, for my loss week. We talked a lot about that impurity culture. Like guys can't blame, no matter what the woman or the girl does or how she dresses. Like if a guy lost it's his fault, he can't blame, he can't blame the woman.
Speaker 2 00:41:53 And I think it's the same thing, you know? Like I've never, so yeah. I think, you know what I would say to somebody like that is if they, if they're worried about that is honestly, would you say, I don't think there's anything to worry about. Like, um, yeah. I think if you ha if you have something that concerns you, like talk about it with that person, you know, if, if there is something that, that you're not comfortable with, let's say he wants, you know, I'm just going to use an example here. Let's say he wants to come. And you're like, no, I'm not comfortable with that. Like, that's, that's fine. Like, I think that's something that, but let's say, let's say he's somebody that, you know, likes, you know, is somebody that, you know, some of us are huggers and some of us are, you know, just in general, I'm not talking about same-sex attraction.
Speaker 2 00:42:48 Like if you know that somebody, like there should be no reason that you shouldn't as, you know, be able to give him a good, like, uh, give him a big old hug, you know, like it doesn't have to be lingering. It doesn't have to be cuddling. Um, but you know, that's something that like you should, if you hug other dots, it shouldn't matter if that those other guys are, are same sex attracted or not. Like, that's something, I think we all, we can, we can show affection in that way. And it not in any way compromise our, our convictions or theirs or make cause them to last, like, I don't think, um, a good, quick hug is gonna cause them to last. And so that's something like, in that way, I would say treat them this same.
Speaker 1 00:43:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Darnell, what do you have to dad? What would you like people to know?
Speaker 3 00:43:51 I'm going to just tie right into that question because that's been a big deal for me. Um, growing up, I was always, definitely like, like I told him myself and the way that I was different. And so it's, it's going to vary for situation, but certain me, I would say treat me like any other guy that you have a relationship with. Give me that honor of, of being the same. Um, like I said, every situation is different, but there's something there's something very, um, just comforting. When you can tell that somebody else is as fearful of you, because you're not supposed to. I mean, you're not a fearful person just because it's something that you didn't choose in that. So, but also when you're building relationships, yeah. There's nothing wrong with asking, asking them, giving them also honoring them by asking them if there's something that's difficult, but what would I want, um, church or my friends.
Speaker 3 00:45:06 So now, um, I don't know if I can narrow it down to one thing, but I would say listen to learn, um, listen to the end of the story till the end of the story. Um, I find myself putting out test fingers or test probes and conversations to get an idea of where someone's going to come across regarding gender and sexuality in vulnerable and share my heart. And I'm surprised at how many people, where they are before I'm even done having the conversation. It's easy to do that. I do that in other situations. So I'm acknowledging it, but if we're going to get anywhere yeah. We have to listen, listen and listen, before we even try to walk.
Speaker 2 00:46:06 Yeah, yeah. A couple of little things I'm going to just throw in there. Like I've said in the podcast, I've talked to, I think, seven or eight guys now in total that have experienced same sex attraction and then some of those that know other guys. And so it's somewhere in that ballpark. And there's a couple of things that I think I've seen kind of the same. And one is what Darnell said. Like most of them have said at some point, all I ever wanted was to just be normal and all like growing up, whatever, but I just want it to be just like all the other guys. And so I think that's where, like, if you treat us just like another guy you're honoring us in a way that most of us would not be able to express using words. Like that's very true. And so I think that's something, that's the first thing.
Speaker 2 00:46:59 Uh, that's such like a heart pride that I've heard from almost across the board is I just want it to be normal. I just want it to be like the other guys. I didn't want to be different. Um, and the other one that I think is also sad is that some of them, their pastors know some of them have told her pastors, but most of them expressed something to the line of, I don't trust my pastors. I I've not had this conversation with them. They know, but we've never really talked about it or we don't ever talk about it or they don't ever, you know, like if my pastor would be preparing a sermon on this topic of sexuality and he would come and ask me a question, like I have a pretty good relationship with my pastor and we've had this conversation, uh, different times.
Speaker 2 00:47:53 And so I I'm really happy with that. And I'm really encouraged by that, by the conversations that we've had. But, you know, I think those are things like if my pastor would feel comfortable once coming to me and asking some questions, because let's say he is preparing a sermon on sexuality. I think those kinds of things, like, I think that's where I would kind of make this appeal to pastors is you don't know, you know, if you preach a sermon on sexuality, like do it in a way that's compassionate doing it in a way. What if you're talking about gender identity, if you're talking about same-sex attraction, whatever it is, expect that someone or a couple of people in your congregation experienced this and talk about it in that way. You know, don't talk about it as this out there or this like talk about it, be informed, listen.
Speaker 2 00:48:50 And then when you do talk about it, talk about it in a way that there might be somebody experiencing that, just like you would in a sermon on depression. You know, you're, if you're going to do a sermon on depression, you're not going to talk about it in this hypothetical. Uh, yes, this is some people that struggle with this. You're going to kind of expect there might be some people in your congregation that can really relate to this. And so you're going to want to do it in a compassionate, informed way when you talk about it. And I think that's something that pat I would call, like, make a call appeal to pastors. When you talk about these things, do it in a way that you come across as someone who they can trust to come to, because what you spoke about was something that could relate to.
Speaker 1 00:49:36 Well, thank you guys for, uh, for having this conversation. And, uh, there's, there's a lot, I've got a lot more questions I could keep asking you guys, but, um, I do, I have to go here before, too long, so I should wrap it up, uh, Darnell you're on the east coast. So it's getting later for you as well, but yeah. Thank you so much for, um, for spending this hour, hour and a half with me. And, um, for, uh, for more conversation around this is particularly with Abraham that, uh, look up that Jesus podcast. And, uh, I think, I think both the episodes you did with them would be what, two to six months ago. So you might have to scroll back. Yeah, I will. I will drop the links after the fact in the, in the description of this live, but they're not there right now.
Speaker 1 00:50:36 If you want to go look it up that Jesus, I guess I should get my kids out here, but they're, uh, ready for me to get outta here. So anyways, thanks guys. I am honored to have you on it. I'm sure I would love anybody watching this Facebook live. If you have more questions, if there was something that was said or shared that you weren't, you didn't quite understand, or maybe you would, you would have liked us to pick up on and we kind of just left it. Hey, I'd love to hear that. Drop it in the comments, send it, send a message to me and we can either continue the conversation in the comment thread or, uh, or pick it up at a later time in another, another live stream. Thank you, Darnell. Thank you, Abraham.
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