Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:20 Hello? Hello and welcome back to unfeigned Christianity, where we are reconciling human experiences with God and his word so that we can love from a pure heart, like a conscience incidence, your faith. I'm excited today to have a profit line from attorney Bible college on to talk about eschatology in revelation and Dr. Matthew Halstad is a part-time prof with the Trinity Bible college. He also teaches at the academy. He has a doctorate of philosophical hermeneutics and biblical studies from the London school of theology and Middlesex university. A couple of years ago in 2020, when a lot of stuff was floating around social media and so forth about the mark of the beast, possibly being connected with the vaccine and the COVID vaccine. Dr. Halstead wrote a couple of articles that talked about what the mark of the beast is and how do we understand this part of revelation? And as a result of that, he began writing a book on eschatology and I've been privileged to be a part of reading the book of previewing, the book early on, and I can not wait for it to come out and share it with you all, but I'm excited to have him on here and discuss the local prophecy, end times prophecy, how to understand eschatology and specifically revelation and the mark of the beast. I hope you find it helpful and enjoyable as well.
Speaker 1 00:01:58 All right. Welcome. Matthew Hall said to unpaid Christianity. I'm not sure if I have I told you the name of the podcast.
Speaker 2 00:02:06 I don't think so. I seem like I did. I did know that maybe I don't have any way. I don't remember.
Speaker 1 00:02:13 No, I I've realized that I do that. Sometimes I invite people onto the podcast. Forget to ever mention what the name of it is. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 00:02:22 Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation and, uh, I'm monitor to be, to be on your show and thanks for asking me to hang out with you. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:02:33 Yeah. I, um, for the listeners, I was a student of Matthews through Trinity Bible college. Uh, one of the online classes, I think it was the fourth module of foundations I had switched to online. And then had you as a prof and started following you on social media and started seeing you write about revelation and resonated with a lot of your stuff. And now you are in the process of writing a book on revelation.
Speaker 2 00:03:02 Yeah. Um, it's actually, it's actually not on revelation, uh, itself. I mean, we have several chapters on revelation obviously, but it's actually on eschatology more broadly speaking, like just the end times, which of course takes us to revelation, uh, for a good portion of the book. But, um, but yeah, so I've been, I've been working on that. Uh, it really, really has started in 2020. Um, but, but it's, it's finished, the manuscript has been submitted to the publisher and it's about to enter into the whole development slash editing phase. So yeah.
Speaker 1 00:03:40 Very good. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about, about yourself. You're a prof for a part-time program for eternity Bible college and you, you work at another Bible college as well. Right?
Speaker 2 00:03:49 Well, so yeah, so my full-time gig is that, um, the academy of classical Christian studies, uh, I teach, um, uh, middle-schoolers teach Bible, um, mostly Bible, a couple of other courses as well. And, um, so that's a lot of fun. I enjoy that very much. Um, I've been with eternity Bible college though for about, I guess around six years. I was thinking through this the other day and I think it's about six years. And so I, I teach a range of courses for eternity, um, whether, uh, teach, teach Torah, revelation, new Testament backgrounds, profits, I've taught in the past apologetics, just all kinds of, sort of things and foundations, the one you mentioned earlier. So, um, yeah, love eternity, uh, love working for eternity and, uh, um, it's, it's a lot of fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:04:40 So you, with your middle school class, you probably don't get into stuff like revelations a whole lot, or do you
Speaker 2 00:04:47 Yeah, so far this year, we, we've not gotten into revelation that we're saving that for the end of course. And so, uh, we, and that's purposeful for two reasons. One is that the end of the Bible, but secondly, you kind of have to have all the Bible for even dabble in revelation and I'm reminded of something Eugene Peterson once said, he said that you shouldn't even be in, in revelation reading it until you've read all of the old Testament. And, uh, so that's important too. Right. Um, but we, we have touched on eschatology of course, because eschatology, you know, it just simply means in times. And so there's a lot of in times texts all throughout the Bible and all throughout the new Testament, even. So, um, you got, uh, all kinds of stuff to deal with there. So yeah, we actually, we do, we actually get into it and, um, we, we, we even go deep. So, uh, yeah, so it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 00:05:43 Yeah. Eschatology revelation kind of general. My, I don't, I don't intend to blame anybody for this, but growing up there was not, it was not really talked about a whole lot, not, not touched on that much. Um, so I, I find myself really interested obviously. Um, and I haven't even asked you, like what, what you lean as far as pre-millennial or millennial post-millennial or any of that. I can't remember if your book really goes into that, but that's part of what interests me in, in this conver conversation is, is just kind of gleaning. And in my studies with EBC, seeing how much of the Bible has like the, the whole Bible has an S eschatological vision. And so, yeah, I'm just interested in diving into this a little bit more.
Speaker 2 00:06:36 Yeah, absolutely. And, um, it's really interesting because we, we often forget that in times a is such a loaded phrase and I don't think we're actually taught this a lot in evangelical circles. I don't think we're actually taught this a lot in our churches. Um, there's just, there's just actually a lot of, I don't mean this like in a bad way or like in a Faria sinister way, but there's just a lot of misinformation out there about what the in times even means or is. And so when we talk about the, in times immediately, everybody thinks future and immediately everybody thinks revelation. Right. And, um, and I like to push back against that a little bit because technically in times can refer to a number of different things. It can refer to the final events, you know, Jesus's physical return to the earth, final judgment, those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 00:07:33 Or it can also refer to, um, the current state that we're in now. I mean, this is the end time because we are living in the time, the era of Christ, uh, is posted, you know, post resurrection, the coming of the holy spirit on the church until, until the final events. Technically that's the in times, I mean, I can show you numerous texts in the new Testament where the new Testament writers are saying it is the last hour, you know, or it is the end time. Right. And, um, so, so most people though, when they, when they say in times, or when they think in times they think final events and that could be, um, that can be kind of dangerous in, in some respects, uh, dangerous is not the right word. It just, that could be misleading in some respects. And, uh, because it only tells half the story.
Speaker 2 00:08:26 Yeah. The final events is part of the end times, but so are a lot of other things in scripture too. And any time you see, you know, uh, you know, those, those two things in scripture, sometimes we can conflate the text to refer to just the, you know, the final events or something like that. And it leads to all sorts of errors down the road. And, um, so I guess my point is just to say, we need to come back and, and, and think about the, in times itself, what do we even mean when we say the in times, um, and, uh, you know, in places like Matthew 24, the so-called, all of it, discourse where Jesus is talking about very important events. He'll use a words like the end and because we associate the end with in times and there, and with final events, we sometimes take Jesus to statements in the Oliver discourse to refer to the final events. But actually, I think it's strong case to be made that Jesus was referring to future events in his time, but past events and hours. Uh, but that's, that's a whole other thing of course, but yeah, in times is a very broad phrase and term and concept. And it's important that we understand that before we even proceed any further, I think, as we study eschatology.
Speaker 1 00:09:41 Yeah. Yeah. That's good. It's interesting. Do you identify as like pre-millennial or amillennial or, or do you not really work in those terms or
Speaker 2 00:09:53 That's a great question. And it's interesting because anytime we do talk about in times or eschatology, this is often the first question that comes up in discussions. Okay. What about the millennium? And I think it's important for people to remember that the question of the millennium or the millennial reign of Christ, the so-called 1000 years of Christ reign on earth. Um, it's important to realize that that that is only spoken about in one small section of the entire Bible. Right. And so there's so much more than in times and just that, um, so that's just something like, uh, maybe the audience just to kind of muse on and think about, um, but just to answer your question, you know, I was, I was raised learning and hearing and immersed in the, so, you know, the so-called dispensational pre tribulational pre millennial mindset, and those are just, you know, $20 words for, uh, essentially the left behind view, right?
Speaker 2 00:10:55 If people are familiar with left behind theology, the novels, the movies, that's what that is that, that, you know, the rapture happens and there's seven years of tribulation, then Jesus returns, uh, essentially for what would be technically a third time. Um, he returns and sets up a literal 1000 year reign on the earth. And, uh, and I don't take that position. I I'm definitely not pre tribulational and definitely not. Dispensationalist um, there are a number of scholars who are still, uh, believers in the whole idea of a literal 1000 year reign when Jesus returns, even if they don't believe in the rapture, even if they don't go with left behind theology, that there will be a rapture, a secret rapture, and then a seven year tribulation, there are still, uh, pre millennialist who believe that Jesus returns pre millennial or before the millennium, before the 1000 year reign.
Speaker 2 00:11:51 And then there'll be a little thousand year reign. Um, that's, I think that's a position that, uh, you know, I can respect, I think there are numerous well-respected scholars who believe that, um, godly people who believe that my position, however, is, is closer to the all millennial view, which is essentially that we are living in the millennium in a sense, right? Uh, that, that Jesus has kingdom has already come. It's not been consummated yet. It won't be consummated until he returns, but we are nonetheless living in an era where we can rightly say, Jesus Christ is Lord. He is ruling and reigning, and we are in the process right now, praying your kingdom, come on earth as it, uh, in your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Uh, but at the same time, while we acknowledge the kingdom is still yet to come, we still acknowledge that it already has come, which is why we give gospel invitations for people to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is king today.
Speaker 2 00:12:52 Right. Because the kingdom is right here. Right. Um, not it's already, but not yet. That's the sort of thing. So that's kind of the space I live in. Uh, I could be wrong on that. It, to me, the millennial question is not, you know, it's not, I hate to say it's a very important question cause it's in the Bible, but it's not one that concerns me that much just because the Bible doesn't devote much space to the question. Even though interestingly, it's been given much attention by a lot of scholars and popularized, uh, prophecy teachers and stuff. Um, but yeah, so that's just a, that's sort of my view, uh, on that. I, I, and I'm a biblical scholar. I, and what that means is notoriously as biblical scholars, don't like to be put in boxes. Right. And we like to not be labeled. I mean, there are schools of thought, you know, of course, but there's a strong, um, sense in which biblical scholars are resistant toward labels. Uh, you know, that's not true for all of us, but, but for me, it's true. I just don't like labels. I mean, as soon as you label me is, you know, it's, it's like that, then there's a lot of assumptions that might go along with that. And then I get other views attached to me. So I just like to, you know, uh, avoid this as much as I can, but at the same time I acknowledge that, you know, sometimes we have boxes that we like to operate in.
Speaker 1 00:14:21 Yeah, yeah, no, I, I love that answer. That's, that's very much kind of what I find myself, although I'm not, I would not call myself an eschatological scholar or anything, but I grew up my dad who is a pastor and Bible teacher growing up. Um, he would've circled more in the amillennial camp than, but that I had many influencers in my life who were pre-millennial. And so it's kind of interesting. Maybe, maybe it's because of the amillennial flavor that I kind of connected with some of what you were saying, but the reason I asked the question was I was curious what if there's something in history that has made us think when we think eschatology or end times we think future, do you think pre millennialism favors that kind of notion or is that, is that, is it not fair to blame one particular view to,
Speaker 2 00:15:21 Yeah, I, they may be different issues. I mean, because, um, again, the millennial question, just sort of a side note for me, an important one when we deal with, I want to deal with and think about, but it's, it's not the most pressing thing. I don't think I w I think though, what is more pressing for us to, uh, as scholars to talk about as pastors to, to talk about is, is the question of futurism, right? Uh, that you kind of brought up and I wouldn't blame, uh, you know, pre millennialist for advocating, um, you know, a staunch futuristic, you know, outlook on these sorts of things necessarily. I mean, it is a lot, a lot of pre a lot of people advocating futurism are pre millennialist, of course. And so maybe that's where the, the association comes in. So I definitely acknowledge that, but I think, I think, I think what causes people to get so caught up in futurism is not so much whether they're pre-millennial or whatever.
Speaker 2 00:16:30 I think it's because of the way they understand prophesy and how prophecy works. Um, and, uh, and, and the way they understand revelation that has, that has, uh, part of, uh, of the issue, I suppose. Um, so for example, most people think prophecy is about prediction fulfillment. Like there's a prediction in the past that will be fulfilled in the future, right? So that's this idea of futurism. Um, and I don't actually think that's a good definition of old Testament prophecy. I mean, it sounds like Mr. Domus is prophecies, right? Uh, um, I know one scholar, basically, I forgot how he put it, but he, he, he essentially, and rightly said, you know, a lot of Christians think like Nostradamus in terms of biblical prophecy, and that's the wrong way to do it. Um, Jewish prophecy, old Testament, biblical prophecy is not so much about prediction and fulfilling anything.
Speaker 2 00:17:29 It's more about, um, I mean, it does include prediction and fulfillment. Like you can, I can show you texts where there are prophecies that are about the future. Okay. But that doesn't capture the sum total of biblical prophecy. I think another way of looking at biblical prophecy is what some have described as act and reenactment. I mean, these are sorts of things that some scholars talk about. It's something I talk about a lot. Um, and, uh, when we, when we think of act and reenactment, what do I mean by that? Well, um, sometimes a prophecy in the old Testament, um, might have to do with a localized historical situation. Okay. That can later be reenacted in the future. Okay. And, uh, in, in, in, in that sense, the future reenactment of that is considered a fulfilled prophecy. So let me just give you an example of this.
Speaker 2 00:18:26 If you don't mind in the, in the book of Daniel, Daniel chapter nine, and I won't read all this or anything, I'll just sort of point out the, the issue going on in Daniel nine, and maybe readers can go back later and check it out. But in Daniel nine, there is, um, a discussion about, uh, I, uh, uh, an event that happens in the temple that is called an abomination of desolation. And historically, most scholars are going to say that that historic, that, that refers to a historical event when, uh, the, uh, the, um, the Greek Syrian, uh, uh, king Antiochus Epiphanes, the forest goes into, uh, the temple, or has his people go into the temple and he desecrates the temple there, they sacrifice pigs on the alter and all that sort of stuff. So it's an abomination of desolation, and that's what it's described as, okay.
Speaker 2 00:19:24 So that, that's, Daniel's word, Oracle prophecy. What are you going to call it that refers to that event that happened, um, uh, you know, a long time before Jesus came on the scene, but when Jesus does come on the scene and he's standing on the Mount of olives, uh, um, in, in, in Matthew 24, he talks about the destruction of the temple at the hands of the Romans. Okay. And he calls, he says, look, this is Daniel's abomination of desolation. Okay. And he's he quotes Daniel there and he references Daniel the prophet he says. And so what does this have to do with how to understand prophecy? Well, it has a lot to do with how to understand prophesy because originally the original context of Daniel's prophecy was about Antioch. It's this, this, this other king who was as Greek king, who was trying to, um, uh, well, who he was trying, he was trying to Hellenized the Jews that is to make them more Greek.
Speaker 2 00:20:26 And, um, and it kind of reached a pinnacle by him having pig sacrificed on the altar. Okay. And that's the historical context. It's really hard to get away from that again, most scholars think that's what Dan is talking about. And yet Jesus takes that and repurposes it, repackages it, repackages it for his own time to speak, not about a Greek empire, but about a Roman empire who will come destroy the temple and 80 70. So the initial prophecy was initially an inactive, uh, by Antiochus the Greek ruler, but then it's reenacted by the Romans in 80 70, which is what Jesus predicted in Matthew 24. So this, you see this act reenactment that it's not, it's not so much prediction fulfillment. Cause I don't, you know, it's a hard case to say that Daniel was predicting and knowingly predicting the Roman destruction of the temple that would happen, you know, quite a while, quite a while later.
Speaker 2 00:21:23 But Jesus can re repurpose that, uh, for the, for the sake of talking about his own era. So you see this happening, uh, sometimes in scripture, I'm thinking one last example that might be helpful is in Matthew chapter two, um, w w w there's this whole scene, of course, where, uh, Herod is trying to, you know, kill the babies. Right. And in the holy family, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, they, they book it to Egypt and they stayed there until Herod dies. And then they come back right. To, uh, to their home. And then Matthew says, quote, this is to fulfill what the prophet Hosea said. Uh, out of Egypt, I will call, I call my son out of Egypt. I call my son that's, uh, from Hosea chapter 11, verse one. When you go back and look up that Hosea passage, Jose 11 one. Yeah, I think it's Jose 11 one.
Speaker 2 00:22:17 And you go back and look it up. You see that the context is, is not talking about baby Jesus. Okay. The context is, is, is a reference to Israel's Exodus from Egypt. So Hosea is being used by God to recall a past event past for Hosea's time, a past event, uh, about Israel leaving Egypt at the Exodus with Moses. And that's where he says, yep. Out of Egypt, I called my son. That's all the references to, but then Jesus repurpose it. I'm sorry. Matthew repurposes it to refer to Jesus. Okay. Jesus is the new Israel. He's the Israel is coming out of Egypt. And um, so what has he done here? It was Jose Jose, uh, predicting this happening to Jesus and then Jesus as a baby leaves Egypt. And that's a fulfillment well, cause Matthew calls it a fulfillment of the prophecy. Um, well, yes, it's definitely a fulfillment of the proxy that not in a sense that it was necessarily a prediction in the way we think, or in a Nostradamus sort of way, it's a fulfillment in the sense that Jesus is reenacting the story of Israel, because it is Israel that brings rescue to the world.
Speaker 2 00:23:34 And in Jesus, as the new Israel is bringing rescue to the world. So Matthew has Jesus reenacting the story of Israel all through, uh, this section. I mean, you have Jesus being baptized in the Jordan. Israel crosses through the Jordan to go to the, uh, the promised land to start their conquering of it. Uh, you have Jesus going into wilderness to be tempted 40 days. Well, Israel was in a wilderness for 40 years being tempted by much of the same things. Jesus was being tempted. Jesus climbs a mountain and starts teaching well, Moses climbed a mountain and taught God his instruction from God and so forth. So you have Jesus being the new Israel and he's reenacting its story. And so there's some logic behind this, this prophecy, but my point here is look, a prophecy is like that. Mainly it is, there is a predictive element, but only in the sense or mostly in the sense of it being an act and then a reenactment.
Speaker 2 00:24:32 So, so what does this have to do with eschatology? And it might have a lot to do with it actually, because, um, you know, can some of these, you know, when you, when you look at some of these prophecies in, in the new Testament about the end times, or what we think is about the end times, some people say, ah, this is about the final events. So you go to Matthew chapter 24, that all of the discourse in Jesus talks about the, the abomination of desolation. Of course, in context, he's referring to when is when Rome destroys the temple, uh, in 80, 70, right? That's the future for him? Cause he's, you know, this is a few decades beforehand before that several decades before that. And um, so some people say, well, this is when antichrist or Jesus is talking about the antichrist who will walk into a third rebuilt temple, sacrifice a pig on it or something, and then desecrate it.
Speaker 2 00:25:28 He's talking about the future. And I would say, well, it's possible. That's going to be reenacted in the future. But, um, but you know, we need to be careful because Jesus, you know, Jesus is actually talking about, you know, his own era at that time. Is it possible it's going to be reenacted in the future. Yeah, it's possible. And when we look at some things that Paul says about the man of lawlessness, it seems like something like that's going to happen, but you it's. So it's, you can't speculate in predict what's going to happen because you won't know it's been reenacted until it's been reenacted, um, or the other you're just speculating at this point. Right? So Paul has this man of law lawlessness who takes his place in the temple. He says, and then he, um, declares himself to be gone, uh, in this temple.
Speaker 2 00:26:16 That's what Paul says about the man of lawlessness for the antichrist. We might say, well, you know, son say, well, that's when the antichrist walks into the temple and desecrates it. Right. Well, I guess it depends on what we mean temple there. Cause Paul, when he talks about the temple, he usually means the church, not like a physical structure. Right. Um, so that's important there too, but you know, is, is, is Paul anticipating a reenactment of the desecration of the original, you know, that's, and that might be one way to think of it, but you know, we can't know the details. I don't think, you know, it's just so hard to know much of those details anyway, back to your original point, uh, prophecy, we, I think we have to see it as act and reenactment, not so much prediction fulfillment.
Speaker 1 00:27:00 Yeah. No, that's, that's really helpful. I'm grateful for you sharing all that. I, and I was even wondering then how, how does that translate into future prophecy? Um, and I really like both, both in your book and as you're talking here, how you, you are just careful to like stick within what we know or what we can know as opposed to try to make everything make sense for us right now, because sometimes, uh, people talking about prophecy are a little more like black and white, this is how it's going to work out. And it's, it's like, well, I, I'm not sure. I necessarily saw that reading myself. And, and so it was kind of, yeah, I don't know
Speaker 2 00:27:47 I'm with you. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of certainty when it comes to modern prophecies users. And I think we need to be careful about that.
Speaker 1 00:27:56 Yeah. So what, I mean, you've kind of shared about this already, but what led you to, to write a book on eschatology? Like what kind of,
Speaker 2 00:28:05 Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. I probably didn't anticipate writing a book on eschatology. The way it worked out was in 2020 when the pandemic hit, um, there were a lots of things being shared and talked about on social media about COVID-19 the vaccine associated with that and all of this kind of stuff. And, um, and what was interesting was how people were speculating about the future, about how this all ties into the, in times. And they were associating certain scripture with it, Bible verses and so forth. And it was really frustrating because they didn't, they, they didn't really go into it all the context of those scriptures. They were just making statements and pairing scripture with their speculations. And some of it just got very weird and very conspiratorial without any, any, uh, base basis of fact, you know, there was no research done into any of this.
Speaker 2 00:29:03 It was just lots of sharing of weird things that, you know, upon, uh, upon looking into you find this just baseless and, you know, um, um, I don't know everything about the Bible, but there are lots of things that I could easily detect in their use of these scriptures that I just knew instantly that they were not in context and they were being taken out of context. And so what happened was I wrote a little piece, uh, about the mark of the beast and COVID-19 and all that. I wrote two pieces that were, um, published on the log house, academic blogs website, and they're still up today. People can go find them and essentially a lot of people ended up reading those articles. And, uh, um, so long story short, the, a friend of mine who was the, as the managing editor of that, that website, you know, asked if I'd be interested in writing a book on this topic. Cause he also worked for, uh, the publisher that was associated with loss, Lexan press and, um, and, uh, so, uh, yeah, he was sort of my avenue. He, he really I'm really thankful for him cause he, he really, um, uh, put the idea in my head to do this. And so I did it long story short. That's how the book came about. It's just a more expanded version of those issues about eschatology more broadly speaking.
Speaker 1 00:30:28 Yeah, no, I re I remember seeing those articles when you publish them, that that was kind of it. I was also seeing on my Facebook feed and just other friends and stuff, just some conspiratorial type way of looking at COVID-19 the vaccine and all that. And so like, I think, I don't know what all, as far as my listeners, like who all, what way, how they understand things and say fall in that camp that was spreading stuff like that around or not. But one of the things I want to just point out is that this is not, I don't hear you. Um, and it's definitely not. My intention is to somehow like make a moral judgment about the vaccine per se. Right. This is more trying to get like, be robustly thorough in our biblical understanding, uh, study of, of what revelation is talking about or eschatology in general.
Speaker 2 00:31:32 Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I'm not, um, you know, I'm not a medical doctor, right. So I, I'm not, you know, I just tell people, you know, listen to the scientific community, you know, talk to your doctor, you know, whatever the doctor is saying, you know, it, it was amazing to me how, how a lot of non-medical professionals were weighing in on that, that topic anyway. But I, there was not, I wasn't, I'm not a medical professional. I wasn't weighing in on that topic, but, you know, from the biological perspective, I, you know, I just, I have to rely on the experts for those sorts of things. And that's, that's what I do. I think they know more about that than I do. Of course. So, um, what's interesting is, is, like I said, a lot of people were making statements about those things that I don't think really needed to be making statements about it.
Speaker 2 00:32:24 Uh, now I'm not, I'm not saying they couldn't have their own personal view of course, but they were making statements like broad statements about what everybody should do, you know, and that sort of thing that even that wasn't my problem. My problem was from a biblical scholars perspective of how they were tying that into scripture, right? How has being coupled with scripture in a way that was taking scripture out of context and was taking a lots of unsubstantiated Liberty with scripture to advance some of their causes. Right. And I didn't like that. And, and, um, um, so that, that's why I offered the, a different perspective. And, and to be honest with you, I'm not saying really anything new, like I'm not coming up with, uh, anything novel here. My, my passion has always been to take what scholars have been saying and are saying, and help, help that information to get down to people in the church, because there is a gap often between the scholarly world and the church.
Speaker 2 00:33:20 And so I like to bridge that gap as best I can. And, uh, and so whenever I saw that, you know, the COVID-19 vaccine was the mark of the beast or whatever, I may assume, as I know of no reputable biblical scholar who has ever said that, right. And biblical scholars disagree amongst themselves all the time about other issues, but they're actually pretty United on that, with that question. Right. And yet these, these things were being passed on as if they were just certain truth, you know? And, and from a biblical perspective, even in, I thought this is not good. So actually my wife is the one who said, you need to say something about this, you know? And, and so finally I did.
Speaker 1 00:34:02 Yeah. Well, let's, let's dive in to that if you, if you don't mind. Um, obviously I'd love to talk about the mark of the beast, but maybe we're, maybe we're jumping too far ahead. Let's just look at revelation as a whole, like how you talked about people, not, not understanding the context. Um, I think, um, uh, somewhere in your book, you, you mentioned, uh, understanding before we try to figure out the content of revelation, we need to understand the context of revelation. What is the context? What, what is the point even of revelation? What is, I'll just let you talk about it.
Speaker 2 00:34:41 Yeah. That, that's, it, that's a great starting point, really, because you can't understand the content of revelation until you understand the context of revelation. What is the context? Well, it kind of depends on what we mean by context. Cause that's a loaded word. I mean, there, there are essentially two contexts that we need to reckon with the first context of revelation is its literary context. The second is its historical context. So let me talk about the literary context. When I, when we say literary context, we mean, what type of writing is revelation? What's what kind of text is it? What, what is it right. Kind of like we have genres today, fiction non-fiction historical nonfiction, science fiction, fantasy, you know, all sorts of genres. And, um, you know, if you, if you mess up the genre or if you don't understand the genre of a book you're reading, you're gonna opt sometimes misinterpreted.
Speaker 2 00:35:39 I mean, could you imagine someone reading us a fantasy science fiction book, thinking that it was, um, you know, uh, historical nonfiction that could, you know, whatever, you know, they're going to be really confused is that this really happened. Now you have to understand the genre of it. Right. So in this, in the same vein, if we misunderstand that genre of revelation, you will misunderstand revelation. So, okay. So what is revelation and what is it Zandra or its literary context? Well, most of the time, most scholars point to three different types of genres that revelation is it's sort of a, a multi-issue genre type of texts. So it is first of all, a letter. Okay. So it's a letter to seven real churches of Asia minor, which is like modern day Turkey, the Western side of that. Okay. And these cities are real cities, emphasis, Smirnoff program, Ty Tyrus artists.
Speaker 2 00:36:37 Um, we had to see a, you know, you know, these are churches, you can find on a map. Okay. And, um, and, uh, and, and John who is exiled on the island of pot Moss, he's writing to these seven churches. And so when, as soon as you say, it's a letter, uh, you have to acknowledge that it had to been discernible. This is something Christina talks a lot about in his commentary or in his lectures. He's says, look, if it's a letter into real people, by a real person, it had to make sense to those people. Right. Um, it had to been discernible and especially, so given that revelation at the very beginning says things like, you know, bless her to those who keep the contents of this book, you know, who obey it well, how do you obey something if you don't understand it.
Speaker 2 00:37:24 Right. And that's something keener says a lot about, and it's very insightful. Um, so yeah, as soon as you identify it, as a letter is the minute you have to do investigative research into motives behind writing the letter. Why did John write it? Why did the churches need to hear it? What was going on in Asia minor at the time, so forth and so on. So it's also, uh, just quickly, it's a prophecy and it's apocalyptic. So a prophecy, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean it's all future. It, it might mean that, but it might mean bits and pieces are not feature, right. Again, prophecy, as I said earlier is not necessarily about prediction fulfillment. Okay. It's not always about the future. In fact, even though revelation is a prophecy, a lot of it might be about our past. And that's very important to remember.
Speaker 2 00:38:09 Um, the third thing is that revelation describes itself as an apocalypse. Okay. That's why we call it. Revelation is because the book starts off by saying an apocalypse of Jesus Christ. Well, apocalypse, you know, we think mushroom clouds and famine and four horsemen, you know, whatever. Um, but actually the word apocalypse doesn't mean any of, any of that. It means nothing of the soar, all apocalypse means is the unveiling or to look behind the curtain to reveal something. And we would call that a revelation. Okay. But it's a revelation of Jesus Christ. It's meant to tell us the truth about who really rains, right. Who's really in charge and so forth. So that sets literary context. It's a letter, it's a prophecy and it's an apocalypse. It's the great reveal, right? But the historical context is another matter too. Uh, if you, if you identify it as a letter, then you have to, you have to, as I said, a moment ago, you have to jump into investigating the historical context to put the matter.
Speaker 2 00:39:14 Simply the historical context of revelation is, um, the first century, uh, Roman empire Asia minor. Okay. That's the cultural, that's the context historical place? Well, we know that the, that, that, that time period in that location, especially Asia minor, it was riddled with Imperial worship or the worship of Caesar Caesar worship was a very important what we might call religion of the day. Okay. I don't like that word religion in many ways, because I don't think it actually describes accurately what was going on. It's more of like a way of life. Okay. Religion is what we do on Sundays, right? Uh, back then they were much more religious in the sense they were much more devoted in every area of their life, to their religion, to their, to their deities and so forth. Well, one VAT they worshiped, or it would have been the emperor and their families, the emperors were deified during this time.
Speaker 2 00:40:15 And, uh, so they were worshiped and they had, uh, temples dedicated to the worship of Caesar. And this is very important. This is something a lot of modern Christians don't know about is that there were temple systems that had priests, uh, associated with the worship of Caesar. Okay. And this happened a lot in Asia minor. And so that's the context of all this. And I think if you don't know any of that Imperial cult stuff, the worship of Caesar stuff, then you will not understand revelation. You will, you can only understand the contents of revelation if you understand the context of revelation.
Speaker 1 00:40:53 Yeah, no, that's good. What, what would you say the point of revelation is like, what is, what is John trying to do through this letter? This apocalyptic letter?
Speaker 2 00:41:05 Yeah, that's a good question. I think he's trying to, uh, comfort and challenge the church in their pursuit of following Jesus and to keep them from compromising as they do follow Jesus. So it's a, it's a letter of comfort. So, you know, there are several figures and characters throughout revelation that are sort of, you know, uh, center stage characters, I guess you could say, um, they're the ones stage a lot, namely the dragon, which is Satan. And then he has two beasts that he raises up from the sea and from the earth. And, uh, basically these beasts are waging war against the church. They are, you know, killing and destroying and doing all the things that the dragon wants them to do. Um, so, but they're, they're importance, you know, they're important characters, they're on stage a lot, but the most important player, the prime character, the star of the show is not the beast or the dragon.
Speaker 2 00:42:06 It's, it's the lamb who was slain. So John has this lamb figure who had been slain. Um, and the idea is that the, the slain lamb conquers the monstrous beast. So we need to think of it like that when you think of it as almost like this, um, story that John's telling in highly symbolic, uh, language. So, and he's trying to comfort and challenge his comfort zone and say, look, you follow the lamb, but just remember the lamb wins. And for those of you who are compromising in with the beast, you need to quit, you need to repent and follow the lamb.
Speaker 1 00:42:43 Yeah. Yeah. And so the, the Christians of that time, would've been living in an era of Imperial worship. And, and not only that, but if they didn't worship the emperor, they were being persecuted and correct was, yeah. So that was the pressure of compromising and so forth. And John is comforting them in that.
Speaker 2 00:43:07 Absolutely. He's comforting them. And he's saying, look, the beast will come to an end. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:43:12 Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That is such a more beautiful, life-giving read already just with that right. Perspective, as opposed to trying to figure out what is this saying about the future, if I'm like, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:32 I tell people, look, if you read revelation and you walk away more afraid, you're reading it wrongly either a you've misunderstood the message you're sincere Christianity misunderstood the message, or you are basically person who has understood it rightly but either way, either way, you're you, you're not reading it from the eyes of faith and sincerity. Right. So it should elicit hope and joy and peace and comfort. It should challenge us, but you know, that's a good thing. So yeah.
Speaker 1 00:44:04 Yeah. Yeah. So what, what is the beast? You talk about the two BS that, that John has come forth and what is the beast and what's its mark and kind of with that, like why, why is that such a big piece, um, in your book? I don't know how many spoilers do you want me to give or not, but, um, that's fine. Yeah. There's actually another mark. That's maybe more important. Um, but yeah, like why, why has the mark of the beast captured so much attention? What is the beast? What is the mark?
Speaker 2 00:44:37 Why has the, has the mark captured so much? That's a great question. I, I don't know ultimately why, but it is curious how so many evangelical Christians especially have made the beast, the center player, you know, the main star of the show, uh, and his mark is somehow the most important thing that revelation even speaks about, you know, like it's not even a case at all. I don't know why that is. I suspect it has a lot to do with our tendency to, to, um, gossip about alarmism. We have this weird relationship with alarmism and, and these, these, uh, fears about the future, right? We just we're prone to those sorts of things for some reason. And so when we hear something it's very contagious, we can share it. And when, once you share it, it becomes more and more abundant, uh, in our culture.
Speaker 2 00:45:28 And with a lot of modern prophecy teaching and popular books, it becomes even more widespread in that respect. Right. And which is so sad in many ways, because just, as you mentioned, revelation talks about another mark that most Christians, either a haven't even heard about or B have heard about it, but have failed to even consider it. Um, and, and that's the mark, uh, of the righteous. So you in revelation 13 verses 16 and 18, you have, or 16 through 18, you have, um, the mark of the beast that's put on your hand forehead or whatever. Right. Um, but then right after that, the next verse starts a new section revelation 14, that talks about the mark, what Kurt keener calls the mark of the lamb. And I think that's a great way to understand it. It revelation also talks about it before all of this and revelation seven, but revelation 14 is a good point of, of considering this, um, the mark, the mark of the lamb, uh, likewise, um, you know, is placed on, on the believers and, uh, in both the mark of the beast and the, in the Marco Lamor associated with names.
Speaker 2 00:46:45 So, um, uh, I'll just, do you mind if I read the section, uh, go for it. Okay, cool. Um, it's from revelation 13, it says, um, let's see. Yeah, 13 verse 17. It says no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark of the beast. That is the name of the beast or the number of its name. So this is interesting. John tells us what the mark is. I mean, he straight up tells us, he said, it is the name of the beast. It's also the number of his name, but we can talk about that a little bit, if you want to. And the number of his name is 666, but then you go down to revelation 14. It says, then I looked and behold on Mount Zion's to the lamb and with him 144,000 who had his and his father's name written on their foreheads.
Speaker 2 00:47:32 So there's immediate parallels here where the beasts mark goes on, um, uh, the, the right hand or the forehead of the unrighteous and the Lamb's mark goes on, um, uh, on the foreheads of the saints. Right. And so, and, and both are associated with the name, the name of the beast, the name of the lamb and the father. God. Right. And so these are meant to stand in parallel and to contrast with one another. So the idea is that if you can understand one of them, you can probably understand the other one, right. So I that's my little clock. Sorry. Um, so you have that and, uh, so annoying now I'm distracted. Oh, well, I'm not going to go up and turn it off. Um, but you have these two things and, um, and if you can, if you can understand one, you can definitely understand the second one.
Speaker 2 00:48:26 So how do we understand the mark of the lamb? Let's talk about that a little bit. Um, you know, Paul talks about us being sealed with the holy spirit, right. Um, and, and I think that really captures what's going on here in revelation 14, with the, of Marketo lamb. This is a, this is a spiritual seal or spiritual marker on the same these marks don't make you righteous or unrighteous. They identify you as being righteous or unrighteous. That's huge right there. Right? So these sincere Christians who are worried about getting the mark of the beast by accident, say, shouldn't worry about that. Because as Christians they're already marked with the lamb are sealed with the holy spirit. The other thing that's interesting here is that there's a Jewish texts called the Psalms of Solomon, which was written several decades before Jesus was born. And it's a, it's a Jewish text.
Speaker 2 00:49:22 Uh it's you know, it's not in your Bible or anything, but it's, it's, it's a very important text. And in that text, um, uh, you have mentioned a sign of God is upon the righteous ones. What that, what it says, that's a chapter 15 verse eight, and then you have a sign of destruction upon the unrighteous. And so that's on their foreheads, et cetera. Right? And so these John didn't come up with this idea of the mark of the beast or the mark of the righteous. He didn't come up with this. This was in early Jewish writing already. In fact, it's even written in a place like Ezekiel chapter nine, where a godson's an angel and the angel puts a mark on the saints, uh, to protect them from destruction because God was about to bring about his judgment. And this was a mark of protection.
Speaker 2 00:50:10 And so, again, as equals talking about a mark and Craig keener points to these texts and says, we got to really think about this because you know, these marks, you know, are technically invisible. They're only visible to God and to his angels, this is what keener says in his revelation commentary. And so let's go back to revelation. We probably need to understand the mark of the land like that. You know, it's the seal of the holy spirit. However you want to talk about it, which is clearly an invisible thing. And, uh, that's probably true of the mark of the beast as well, to some extent, right? Um, these, these marks do not make you unrighteous. They identify you as unrighteous. They in, in the mark on the righteous is meant to protect them from destruction. The mark on the unrighteous is meant to mark them out for destruction.
Speaker 2 00:50:56 I think that's the idea. So it's an identity marker, and it's a marker of protection or destruction depending on the mark that you have. Okay. So, so that's the, so what, how did we get here? Well, we're looking at background data. We're looking at the context of revelation. I haven't mentioned the other context of revelation, namely the Jewish context, because John is a Jew and he draws from his Jewish worldview and the Jewish story, which if that's the case, if he's going to talk about marks on the righteous and the unrighteous, every good Jew who shared his Jewish context would immediately think of Psalms of Solomon or Ezekiel nine, these marks that go on them, right. Uh, that they talk about. And so, but see, we're Americans, we don't share that Jewish assumption. And so we don't have these background stories of Zico that pop up in her mind, but that's because we don't know the context that well.
Speaker 2 00:51:50 Um, but if you know, the context will help you. Um, so I think that helps us to understand what's going on. I think a good case can be made that the mark of the beast is not a physical mark per se. Not in the way, at least we think, okay, now there's, it can have physical manifestations in the world. And then I think maybe John might be talking about that too, in a sense. So let me just go through this real quickly. Um, a lot of scholars, point out how, um, on Roman coins and P Imperial coins, there, there were, um, you know, images of the, of the Caesar on those coins. Okay. But what was interesting about that is the only same coins, the images of the Caesars were depicted in, um, DFI to terms. Okay. So they were depicted as gods on the coins.
Speaker 2 00:52:46 So if you were, um, holding around these coins, these Roman coins to buy and trade with, right, you couldn't buy and trade or sell anything. You can handle a coin without literally carrying the mark of the emperor on it. Right. And in fact, devout Jews, some commentators point out how devout Jews wouldn't even carry such coins because they were images of blasphemy. Okay. That's very interesting. I think in, in, in, in, in light of what we're talking about. And so, um, another thing too, is how, um, oftentimes the, you know, these, these cities in Asia minor, particularly a place like Tyra Tyra, there, there were lots of trade gilts, so that if you want it to be a businessman businesswoman, you needed to join a trade union or a trade Guild. And these trade guilds would often include feasts that were, that you had to participate in where you had to eat the same food that were dedicated to the Caesars or to the, to various other pagan deities.
Speaker 2 00:53:54 Right? So you, you would have trouble having a business buying and selling. If you didn't participate in some of these fees to the Caesars. In fact, there's been historical evidence that shows that there's crossover between the trade guilds and the Imperial cult. So, and at least one instance that I've heard about, um, some, some may start to shown that there was a president or a leader of a trade Guild that was also a priest in the Imperial cult. So you had had these like crossover. So, I mean, it would really be hard for a Christian to be part of a trade Guild and not be expected to worship Caesar. Right. And now I think something like that is what he's talking about, about the mark of the beast and it has to do with the money or wrong. Okay. Because that money was literally marked with images of Caesar that were blasphemous and depicting him as a deity.
Speaker 2 00:54:47 Now all of this kind of assumes, right. That the beast is the emperor or the Roman empire more generally. Right. And, and there's actually a lot of evidence for that as well. I'll mention that briefly. And if you have follow up questions, we can chase some rabbit trails if you want to. But, um, so a lot of scholars, again, highlight, um, how the mark of the beast passage, you know, it tells us what the market is. I'll just look at it again, revelation 13. Um, it says no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark. That is the name of the beast or the number of its name. So the mark is the name of the beast or the number of its name, which is 666. Well, a lot of scholars point out how the number 666 is a pretty good solid match for the emperor Nero.
Speaker 2 00:55:36 Okay. Um, so for example, if you take, um, Nero's name in Greek, okay. Now Roan Kaiser, and you transliterate each of those letters into Hebrew, then it comes out to 666. Okay. What's even more fascinating though, is that there's another way to spell Nero's name, instead of saying now Roan Kaiser, you can drop one of the ends and you can say, now row Kaiser, that number comes out to 616. What's why I bring that up is because in some manuscripts of revelation, the number is not 666, it's 616. And a lot of scholars, point out how the scribes translating that. Um, it's, it's, it's like they, they knew that he was talking about Negro, you know, anyway. So it's just, it's a fascinating phenomenon in the text. And so why would Paul, I mean, I'm sorry, why would John be talking about Nero? Well, again, some scholars are going to say the Nero embodied the, the essence of evil pagan Rome, because he Nero was notoriously an evil, evil emperor who was just absolutely crazy a murderous villain.
Speaker 2 00:56:53 And he embodied all that Rome really was okay. And John was probably writing revelation, you know, a couple of decades or a little more than a couple of decades after Nero died. He was probably riding around 80 95. And that was when demission another emperor was on the throne and demission was just as despicable and crazy. Okay. But what's interesting though, is that, you know, in some texts, uh, demission is kind of considered a second knee row, you know, so, so even though 666 can mean Nero, it can also be kind of a wink at demission as well. Um, so we, and we also, by the way, we have, uh, extra biblical texts that speak of Nero as a beast. So, I mean, we have other texts that describe him as such outside. So that's kind of another clue. One last clue is in revelation 17, uh, John talks about the beast there and he describes the beast.
Speaker 2 00:57:57 Uh, I'll pull up the reference and it's in revelation chapter 17. Um, excuse me. Um, let's see. Yeah, 17 verse three. I w I'll just kind of read it just a bit here. It says that this, that there was this beast, uh, it was full of blasphemous names and it had seven heads and 10 horns. Um, and then, uh, later on, uh, you know, the, the, um, uh, John, John gives us an interpretation of what those seven heads mean. So it's a seven headed beast and he tells us what those seven heads represent. Um, he in terms of forest. So in revelation 17 verse nine, he says this calls for a mind of a mind with wisdom, which that's interesting because he thinks that someone with wisdom can understand what he's about to say, it's not encoded in a way that's indiscernible. Like he thinks people can understand it.
Speaker 2 00:58:55 So he says, this calls for mind with wisdom, the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. So earlier he depicted a woman writing the speech, right? So that's what that references to. So the seven heads represent seven mountains. Why is that important? Well, it's important because we have a lot of data from the historical sources that show that Rome was known as the city of seven Hills or the seven mountains. They even had a feast, uh, um, called, called, uh, the feast of seven Hills, you know, the festival seven Hills. And, uh, actually the ancient Roman historian. Suetonius mentioned this in his biography of demission. He mentioned this, this feast. Um, so we Rome was just known as the city on seven Hills, the seven Hills city. Sometimes it's how it's called. And, you know, we don't know that Greco-Roman context.
Speaker 2 00:59:48 We don't know that Roman context. And so we couldn't understand the content of this passage until we know the historical context of this passage, which is what I've just said. The city of seven Hills. Um, what's even more fascinating about this is, um, that this text also says that the seven heads not only represent seven mountains, but they also represent seven Kings. Okay. Now, why is that helpful? Well, because wrong, the city of Rome, the city of seven Hills was also the capital capital of the Roman empire, which is where emperors or Kings would live. Right. This is where the capital was. So it makes sense why the seven Hills also represents seven Kings because there's, it's associated with that. Um, it, it, you know, this is no different than, you know, people today talking about the big apple, you know, we, we mean New York city, right. And it's just a nickname. And, you know, 2000 years from now, when archeologists are talking about the big apple, they, you know, most people won't know what that's a reference to, unless they do historical research to find out, oh, New York city was called the big apple. Well, that's why we do historical research for revelation is to show what he's talking about. Everybody, every one of his original readers would have recognized the references seven of the seven mountains represents Rome. The beast certainly seems to be the Roman empire in some sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:01:16 Yeah. Wow. That's, that's fascinating. I, I was intrigued by the idea that different manuscripts change the number that depending on, cause that, that would add some validity to that it's referring to Rome. Like it could be coincidence, I guess that maybe, but the fact that it's changed sometimes depending on how narrow is spelled, um, definitely adds to that. What is like, as we're reading about this beast in the mark, what, what should we do with this passage? Like what do we take? Is it just kind of a, a nice apocalyptic comfort, comforting letter to rehearse back on for the first century Christians? Or is there something in it for us as well? Like is, is there an, a reenactment of sorts of the beast and the mark?
Speaker 2 01:02:17 Such a great question. Such a great question. I don't think we should read this as mirror history or historical inquiry and you know, it's not meant for just a pass, so we should apply this for the future and for our present time as well. Um, I'll get to your question, whether it should be re if this is going to be reenacted in the future. Okay. I get to that moment, but let me just say this. I think revelation is super practical and applicable to D to today because it gives us language and symbolism for how to understand the empires of our own day. You know, and, and it gives us ways of thinking about the nature of power itself, because if you read revelation 17, 18, and around that area, Rome is actually criticized for its economic exploitation and it's drunkenness on its own power lust and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 01:03:10 So these are very applicable for today, not just for today's governments of the world, but for today's, you know, greediness of the world. And, and, and if we're really good listeners of revelation, we'll also not just look outside of us to point fingers at the beast that exists outside of us, but also the beast that likes to rear its ugly head within us. Right? So there's, there's all the people of the lamb, the slain lamb, or all the people of the bees. I mean, this is highly practical. You can preach a million sermons and stuff. Um, so absolutely it has everything to do with today has everything to do with the future. In that sense. Now your question though, is will this be reenacted? Is there a future beast, because if I've said that the beast is Rome, um, that the Roman empire does that mean there will be a future Roman empire or you know, of the soar,
Speaker 1 01:04:01 Hey friends, thanks for listening to this episode with Dr. Halstead on eschatology. I just asked him a question about the beast about whether it is going to be reenacted. Is there a antichrist coming that we are, should look, be on the outlook for, if you would like to hear his response to that he has about a 13, 14 minute response. It's really, really good. He talks about how the beast, uh, or the antichrist or man of lawlessness is the way that Paul refers to it is probably someone coming from within the church because he leads an apostasy. If you would like to hear more on that, uh, consider becoming a member of unpaid Christianity. We reserved the expanded versions of all our podcasts episodes for members is just $10 a month. You get expanded versions of our podcasts as well as two deep dive essays a month. The next deep dive essay is going to be on first Corinthians 11. What's the big deal about head covering. I invite you to join our membership is just $10 a month, and there's a lot of, lot of great stuff in the archives and a lot of stuff to come. Thanks for listening. And if you enjoyed the episode, I'd love to hear your thoughts and, and I'll turn it back over to our final conclusion with Dr. Halston. Yeah. Well, thank you Matthew, for your time. I realize we're over, uh,
Speaker 2 01:05:17 Hour that well that's okay. This is good.
Speaker 1 01:05:21 Maybe kind of one last question, just to like, um, how do we delete with our audience? How, because I'm sure there's going to be some people out there that are, what if I'm, what if I end up worshiping the beast without realizing it, or what, you know, what is this, what is this, how do I know that I'm worshiping the lamb? Like, what is the kind of fruit that you would leave with with someone like that?
Speaker 2 01:05:49 Yeah. You know, worship, it involves, you know, a decision of the will. It involves volition. You know, I don't think you can accidentally worship something, but, but you can give yourself over to the ways of the world into sin so much. And so often that you might lose the conscious realization that what you've been doing has been acts of worship. So let me give a, just a brief example. If I, if I make small choices, small choices, every day, they become habits, habits become lifestyles, lifestyles become, you know, part of my character. You know, if I, if I make, for example, a commitment to cuss, say one cuss word every day for 365 days of the year, then by the end of the, that year, I would probably be cussing without even realizing, right. And that's how habits work. And, and so, so we can make small choices that leave us in the end, doing really bad things without us recognizing it.
Speaker 2 01:06:53 So, but the good thing is God gives us repentance. He allows for us to repent in turn and he, his holy spirit is always knocking on the doors of our hearts, you know, and telling us, you know, to change our ways. And I think, I think what we need to do is one don't fear about accidentally taking the mark of the beast. It's not really the way it works. Um, if you're a Christian and you love Jesus, you have the mark of a lamb on you and you, you know, you have the syllabus spirit, uh, upon you and you're, you're protected from eternal harm and you're identified as a son or daughter of God. And, and so I don't want Christians worrying about that. Uh, you know, I, I think what we can do is we should be vigilant that we aren't compromising the ways of the land with the ways of the beast.
Speaker 2 01:07:37 And we have to understand that the ways of the lamb are always marked by there's that word, mark, they're always marked by acts of love and kindness and humility and deference to one another. So as long as we are pursuing a life of loving others, as we, as we love ourselves and loving God before all things, then we, we are manifesting the mark of the lamb and everything that we do. We're leaving those marks for everybody to see, to glorify God. And so I, I think if we think of the mark as that, it's going to give us a lot more peace. I think in many ways, because I think a lot of Christians today fear, you know, oh my goodness, I have all my credit cards, 6 66 on it. I've got the mark of the beast or what if I took the vaccine and, and it ends up being in the market.
Speaker 2 01:08:24 It's like, okay, that's not, you've totally missed it. If that's what your fear is. Because again, the mark, historically speaking was all about identity, identifying you as such, you know, unless you took the vaccine in a way that was like, I'm taking the vaccine and I'm by golly doing so for the name of the beast, you know? Well then you have other problems, right. That has nothing to do with the vaccine or whatever. My wife told me the other day, uh, I guess it's been a couple months ago. She said that I think it was on an old driver's license or something she had, or on the current one, she has three sixes in a row. And of course you do because your husband's writing a book on this, you have to have, you know, it doesn't, I, it means nothing to me. I mean, it's just, again, those numbers aren't like magical incantations.
Speaker 2 01:09:08 They're, they're, they're just, they're actually just numbers for a name. But, you know, people did that in the ancient world. It was called a Demetria where you take numbers and you could associate it with names. They did it all the time. And Nero actually had it done to him quite a bit, according to the ancient historian Suetonius who was wrote, who wrote a biography of new Europe. And it talks about how people were playing with a number of his name. It's really fascinating. So common thing. But to answer your question directly, um, if you, if you, if Jesus Christ is your Lord, you have the mark of the lamb and it's shown in your love for the saints and love for Jesus. Focus on that. Honestly, focus more, do more research on mark of the lamb, still have the land stuff dwell there. The mark of the beast is just, I think we probably think about it too much. I don't know. Uh, not, not at least in proportion to how much we should think about the mark of the lamb, I should say.
Speaker 1 01:10:04 Yeah, that's good. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. Um, so people, if they want to follow, do you have a publish date for the book or?
Speaker 2 01:10:12 Um, I don't that that book won't be out until the end of the year, maybe early next year, but I'll definitely post updates on, you know, social media I'm on, I guess, I guess I'm on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. I'm not cool enough to do Tik TOK or anything, but, uh, that's three. I have a website people can go to, I post updates there.
Speaker 1 01:10:37 I'll, uh, be sure to drop a link to the website, Matthew halston.com. Okay. Um, have you written other books? I guess I hadn't even asked.
Speaker 2 01:10:46 Yeah. Uh, so this would be my second book, the eschatology reason. My second book, my first book is on Romans. It's an academic book, but it won't, it won't be out actually for a few more months.
Speaker 1 01:10:57 Okay. Yeah. Very good. Well, yeah. Thanks for coming on and giving us this time and I look forward to
Speaker 2 01:11:05 See what I'm honored to be on, man.
Speaker 3 01:11:52 On vain. Christianity is brought to you by our members and atrium is a part of the membership program. You received Judy dead essays a month expanded versions of all our podcasts interviews. If you would like to become a member visit www dot Nashville, wipper.com forward slash unpaid Christianity podcast is also a part of the tune networks. The restorative faith collective, where we have conversations about race perspectives and relationships in Anabaptist context, to learn about more articles and podcasts visit www dot restorative faith, collective.org. The second network is the kingdom outpost, where we talk about what it looks like to live as Jesus is nation in today's world for more podcasts and articles, visit kingdom outpost.org. Thanks for listening.
