Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:20 Welcome to on Fain Christianity, where we are reconciling our human experiences with God and his word so that we can love from pure heart, good conscience and sincere faith. I'm excited to have my friend Lucy Kinzinger on the show today. Lucy recently wrote a book that's kind of a classic example of reconciling our human experiences with God and his word it's called turtle heart. It tells the story of a relationship she had with an older lady who has since passed on this lady, broke some of her stereotypes of how she thought about what a Christian was, what it meant to have faith in Jesus, how she thought about people who identified as gay or lesbian and what it looks like to vest in relationships from a gospel perspective, we'll get into all that more. This book has been about five or six years in the making. I remember when she first sent it to me back in 2016, I think the manuscript. So it's exciting to see it come to life. And I'm honored to be able to share this interview with you all. All right, here we are with, uh, Lucy figure, I guess I forgot to ask you, do you prefer to go by Lucy or Lucinda
Speaker 2 00:01:46 Lucy normal conversation yet?
Speaker 1 00:01:50 Yeah. Well, welcome to unfeigned Christianity.
Speaker 2 00:01:54 It's good to be here.
Speaker 1 00:01:56 It's good to good to finally have you on you, uh, think you reached out in September or October of this past year. You were, is that when the book came out,
Speaker 2 00:02:09 The book actually came out the very tail end of August. Yeah, but I was, I had just, um, we had Ivan and I had her first daughter, uh, not long before the book came out. So I was kind of like a lot of things are happening. So it was maybe a little bit after the book came out before I actually started reaching out and, and thinking about, wait, you know, people that I could talk about turtle heart.
Speaker 1 00:02:35 Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks for reaching out. I felt bad cause I have, uh, pretty much all of 20, 21. I was off with the podcast. I wasn't really doing much with the podcast and started to try to plan for starting it back up, um, this fall, but then the way some of our went and stuff, I decided I just kicked the can down to the new year. And so it's kind of felt like I've had you on the string here for a while and um, you keep, you keep checking in and making sure it happens. And, um, I'm grateful for that. Now we finally have you on the, the, uh, the book is turtle heart for anybody who, I mean, get it right for those watching here. Um, and it's a book the, the events happen it's about a relationship you had with the lady back in 2011 kind of around that time. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 00:03:39 Yeah, it would've been that's when, when I met Shirley. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:03:43 And then you started writing about it. I remember you sent the transcript to me back in 20 15, 20 16 around then. And so that, I'm assuming by then, that was kind of the completion of the transcripts. And it's been in the process of getting published ever since. Is that kind of,
Speaker 2 00:04:05 Yeah. Well, um, the manuscript that I sent you was, was in there. I don't remember. I think it was a well developed manuscript, but it has definitely gone through significant edits since then. It's gone through several major edits since that time. So yeah, it's definitely been a process getting it, getting it finished and published because I've done many, many drafts of this book.
Speaker 1 00:04:29 Yeah, no, it's good. I M I, as I was reading it this time, I F I found myself, like, it's a very easy read. You kind of go flow from one chapter to the next. I don't remember that when I read, read it the first time, but I was trying to figure out, like, I really struggled to read manuscripts that are just a word document, unless it's my own. Like, unless it's something that, that I'm writing. And I kind of know the story and just having a hard copy book in my hand may have been a difference. Um, but maybe, maybe it's the process of editing and just continuing to improve the manuscript. I, I know what it's like. Uh, I think my book took like three or four years till it was till it was finally published and somewhere in there, I think at the beginning, actually I had read from another author who said, most books go through eight different manuscripts, eight different versions of the manuscripts. And I was like, oh no, really surely you can do it faster than that. But is that, do you find that to be true? You've written what three books now? I think that,
Speaker 2 00:05:43 Yeah, I didn't count, but yeah, I would say that's definitely it's anything but simple. I don't know if there were eight versions of anything but simple, but it did go through a lot of edits as well, but definitely probably my children's books and turtle heart has, I would say probably definitely.
Speaker 1 00:06:02 Yeah. A lot of revision editing processing. Well, uh, we'll get into the book a little bit further, but, um, just by way of further introduction and so forth, uh, why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself? You are originally from a lady Smith, Wisconsin, which is the area my dad grew up in actually. So I have, I guess, ties to the Sheldon Wisconsin lady Smith area. But I actually do not know that much about that area of Wisconsin because we've lived, we've never lived there and only have visited various times. And the last 12 years been out here in California. So yeah. Is that right? You're from lady Smith originally or
Speaker 2 00:06:50 That,
Speaker 1 00:06:53 Yeah. Go ahead and tell us more about yourself. You are a writer.
Speaker 2 00:07:01 Yeah. I'm blogging, written several books and I love writing. I've been a writer for a long time. I intense again from a young age. That was, I guess my dream and goal was to pursue writing because I've always been a reader. I've loved when I was a little girl. That's all I did. I just, you know, pretty much 24 7. I was reading. So yeah, I grew up in Russ county in Wisconsin, which ladies med is, is what about 15 minutes from my place, which is a pretty rural area, not a lot. They're pretty good fields and farms, some country people so very, very different than Los Angeles.
Speaker 1 00:07:49 Yeah. Or even, uh, I most, not most of my life anymore I'm most but half of my life was lived in Northern Minnesota. And that that's really different from Los Angeles, obviously to
Speaker 2 00:08:04 The rest county would not be such a stretch from Northern Minnesota. There'd be some similarities. Definitely there
Speaker 1 00:08:11 Probably a little more farmland. A lot of it does it tend to be farmland?
Speaker 2 00:08:16 Yeah. Yeah. A lot of dairy farms, a lot of small farms that are having a hard time making it now, but yeah.
Speaker 1 00:08:23 Yeah. Um, just to, just to jump ahead to current day a little bit, cause there's more, I want to come back to, uh, kind of your, your growing up and experience, um, as it relates to the book, but you are now living you're, you're married now. Uh, two years, three years you've been married
Speaker 2 00:08:43 And I live in Western, Maryland. It's the triangle, the triangle like Maryland that has this handle. It looks like a panhandle or something. And the very triangle end of Maryland where I live. So we're like 15 minutes from West Virginia, but 45 minutes south to Penn state.
Speaker 1 00:09:00 Oh, interesting. Yeah. Very good. We were, we were just through that little triangle earlier this summer passing through the middle of the night was driving through there. Yeah. Well actually we, um, we got a hotel. I can't remember what channel it was, but we were coming up from Virginia, Canada, Catlett, Virginia area and heading to Ohio. And we went up through there and got a hotel somewhere in there. And so the next day when it was light, again is yeah, I could tell it was really beautiful. So you, you now, you, your husband's name is Ivan and you have,
Speaker 2 00:09:45 And we have one, uh, she's not seven months just turned seven months. Uh, our daughter is named animal
Speaker 1 00:09:53 Annalise. All right. Very good. Yeah. We just had our first daughter in fall of 2020, so she's Ooh. She's like 16 months already. Um,
Speaker 2 00:10:06 And you have, you have a couple of sons. I forget how many,
Speaker 1 00:10:10 Yeah, we have three, three boys had three boys and now we have a girl. And so she's, uh, bringing extra beauty and sensitivity to our life, but she's also kind of, uh, giving the boys a run for their money. So, so you, uh, personally grew up a part of a, obviously like most of my listeners are going to be familiar with uh Anabaptism and the Anabaptist church, conservative Anabaptist church. Some people might think some, some people listening, I don't think this will be the case for most, but some people might have, uh, MC USA and Amish kind of all in the same. I don't know if people will know that all the varying types of Anabaptism, but you would have grown up in a fairly conservative Mennonite setting. Is that correct? What are some of the, the things that set your conference where you a part of a conference or is the Sheldon church? Okay. So what, what are some of the unique aspects of your church as far as belief and practice that might set you apart from some other Anabaptists? Well, before we were recording, you told me that the church you're going to now used to be beachy. So it has kind of a beachy flavor. Maybe I'll ask you, what is some of the differences from what you grew up with to what you're experiencing now?
Speaker 2 00:11:55 Well, what I'm experiencing now, there is a lot more variety, just, um, and just maybe a lot more openness to education, different ways of doing things. Um, whereas where I grew up, it's maybe partly being conservative and about this, and also currently just who we were, you know, a little less kind of in the middle of nowhere. I mean, um, maybe more, I dunno, not as polished, um, but
Speaker 1 00:12:30 That is polished as beachy or as others,
Speaker 2 00:12:34 You know, when you come, people have things, it feels like to me, you know, we were kind of, yeah, we're kind of in the middle of nowhere and just kind of a little country church and kind of set in our ways, maybe to a certain extent, I would say we were a very welcoming church as far as like for visiting and stuff, but we just, you know, had ways of doing things and this is how we did it. And, and we, as far as dress, like if you're asking about dress, um, like we wear Cape dresses and like the European style and we were just pretty traditional. Like our church is pretty much the same. Um, we'd have three songs in the morning and then you have your devotional before Sunday school, and then you have your Sunday school and then you have your, you come back from Sunday school and you have another song and you have your sermon and then you have an in the song to close and stand up for the closing pair. And we had prayer times, but it was the same every, every, every Sunday. Whereas now the church where I'm attending now, they actually mix it up a lot more. So you don't necessarily know what to expect. Exactly. There's a basic order of the surface, but there is a lot more home, maybe sharing time from the congregation, things like that. So,
Speaker 1 00:13:48 Yeah. Yeah, no, that's, that's interesting. I'm curious if, um, has the church that you grew up in, has it changed or is it still kind of similar as far as church format and even, um, you mentioned something about, uh, the, the setting you're in now is maybe a little more open to education and stuff like that. What has, has the church you grew up in changed? Is that part of the reason I'm asking the question is it seems like there's like some of the differences within conservative Anabaptists conferences are, are conference related. Like there, they just have a different flavor, but it also seems like there's a, a change with younger generation. Like there just is a little more opening up to education or, uh, changing up the way you do a service. Would you say that or? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:47 Well, I think part of, part of the thing with education, um, that's maybe partly just the area or the setting or the lifestyle that people have like in west county. Um, people just didn't really think about going on to college or farmers, you know, if you had a purpose and that's kind of a Mennonite thing to a conservative minute and you just college isn't necessarily in the spectrum. Whereas mountain view, I mean, not view, there's a lot of young people that do go to college a lot more than in my home area, but now, I mean, it's not like people are completely against it. Like my brother is now attending college and my, you know, my sister went to college to be a nurse. So it's not like people aren't necessarily against education, but maybe they are more skeptical, I would say. And also, um, maybe a little more, um, yeah, just a little more leery of, of outside influences I would say. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:15:41 Yeah, no, that's interesting. I guess in your, in your book, you talk about yourself going to at least auditing some classes.
Speaker 2 00:15:49 Right. Great. Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did. And I actually am going to college finishing up my communications degree here. So that's exciting.
Speaker 1 00:15:59 Yeah, no, that is, that is cool. Very good. So, yeah. Um, maybe, maybe we'll dive in. I don't know if, uh, I could keep, keep analyzing and about this culture or dive into the book, um, which is essentially, is it fair to say that the book is a memoir of you processing some of the uniqueness of your upbringing as you began relating with someone outside of your, your church culture and setting that broke some, maybe broke some stereotypes or,
Speaker 2 00:16:41 Yeah, definitely. I would say, yeah, he put that very well.
Speaker 1 00:16:46 Would you mind giving a rundown, at least for our audience? Just kind of what, what is the book and why should they read it?
Speaker 2 00:16:53 So as a young person, a younger person, I wasn't, it wasn't a teenager. I think I was like 24, maybe when I met Charlene, but I, I w I had led a very sheltered life for the most part, as far as not interacting very much with non-Christians or even non Mennonites very much so. Um, I met this little old woman. I was driving for a chance at company and she had, um, regular weekly doctor appointments that she needed to go to. And I was very intrigued by her. We kind of hit it off it from the beginning. The first, the first time I drove her, we just had this really interesting discussion. I really, really liked her. And I could tell she liked me, which maybe she was responding to my very genuine interest in her. She was, oh, a quarter would give way. She was, she, she always called, she called herself and she was, but, um, she was also parked.
Speaker 2 00:17:53 She had, um, I think maybe her mom was half French, Canadian, half a AA, and then his dad would have been like, anyway, but she was, she was, she looked native. She had, you know, yeah. She had the native look. And of course I was very intrigued by that because I'd always been fascinated for some reason, from a young, from a child I've always just thought native Americans were just the coolest thing. And so in my mind, you know, at that time, this just made a really interesting, and I wanted to get to know her. She was a very unique, very Sparky woman. She had a lot of interesting things to say she was a good storyteller and I really wanted to help her know Jesus. And so I reached out to her and, um, she was a lonely, um, I would, even after I stopped driving for the chasse, that company, I would go over to your place to visit. And eventually I started driving here separate at the lake. So there were, there were a lot of chances for us to interact and get to know each other. And she really, I would say I'm hoping my mind to live outside my antidote dish, to my very sheltered, my Baptist upbringing in Brooklyn of my studio day.
Speaker 1 00:19:04 Yeah. What, what are some of the, do you mind talking about, or just mentioning at least some of the stereotypes set that it got broken. I know you one, there's a few things. Um, one of the first ones that you, that I remember you talking about in the book was that she considered herself a Christian, or she, she was familiar with God and open together. She didn't strike you. I forget how you worded it. Exactly. But something about it seemed to catch you off guard that, that she was Christian. And yet she obviously participated in some of the Ojibwe practices and kind of blended some of her Indian culture as well. Um,
Speaker 2 00:19:55 Yeah, I wouldn't say that it caught me off guard necessarily that she was Christian. I don't know that that necessarily surprised me, but it was a real journey for me to take my own ideas of Christianity, which maybe weren't even so Mennonite. It's just, you know, you read these little evangelical tracks that are like, you know, there's three steps to salvation. You know, you follow the steps, ask Jesus into your heart, and now you're a Christian. Um, or like even just hearing like, um, stories of conversion, you know, people, you know, how their lives changed when they became a Christian. And so I was confused about Charlene and I think there was a legitimate confusion because yes, she did, um, claim, um, and, and love Jesus. And she really did. And she had that those basics, but there was also a lot of maybe gaps, a biblical knowledge and a lot of gaps in her practice. She didn't necessarily live the kind of life I thought she'd be living, you know? And so there was a lot of confusion and a lot of things for me to Wade through with coming. And ultimately I came to a deeper understanding, I think of what it means to be a Christian and what it means to be born again. And not that I have it all figured out now, but I would say that my understanding and became less like, okay, it's just three steps, you know?
Speaker 1 00:21:16 Yeah. So that's interesting. I, in full transparency for our audience, I am about halfway through the book. I haven't actually finished it yet, but, um, I've noticed that, or I wondered if you're going to process a little further, what, like I could tell, you're trying, you're trying to make sure that she's saved, uh, you have that encounter where you pull off to the side of the road and have a prayer later to discover that she was just kind of playing with you or something, or you, you said something about later, you found out she was sarcastic. She was being,
Speaker 2 00:21:51 Yeah, I don't think she was playing with me when we prayed, but maybe yeah, it was maybe she was a little just skeptical about the whole process or yeah. And yeah, she was kind of skeptical about the born again, people, she always, I didn't find that out until later into our friendship, but she was a little bit skeptical about the whole born again.
Speaker 1 00:22:14 Yeah. Hey folks, I just wanted to take this time and say, thank you for listening. It is fun for me to be able to sit down and interview people, but I really hope that these interviews and these podcasts episodes are helpful to you in your journey as you sort through issues and, and try to reconcile your human experiences with God and what he says through his word. I would love to hear feedback from you. Obviously every episode has an email address in the description. So if you want to shoot me an email message, let me know what you're thinking. What has stood out to you, whether positive or negative, another really helpful way is to rate and review it on whatever podcast platform you're listening to. If it's on iTunes, I know you have the capability of rating it as well as leaving a review.
Speaker 1 00:22:55 I would love to hear whether it's good or negative feedback, but even if all you can do is give a thumbs up or a star rating, go ahead and do that. Whether it's one star or five stars, a thumbs up or thumbs down that helps me know kind of where you guys are at and how it's landing on you guys and whether or not these are being helpful and meaningful for you. It is my desire to facilitate a safe place for processing through some fairly deep issues in life. And I hope that it's been that for you. I'd love to hear what your experience has been like with unfeigned Christianity podcast. Thanks for taking the time to give a response. Thanks for taking the time to listen. It is a privilege to be able to provide these each week for you all. What, what are some other, uh, stereotypes or, um, what are other ways that your relationship with Charlene made you think more broadly about relationships and about Christian, the Christian journey?
Speaker 2 00:23:55 Well, one thing just, you brought up stereotypes, like I think as a conservative and a Baptist, a conservative men, and a, maybe I had some stereotypes about who my family was and who other families were like, maybe we did things. You know, we were a Culligan, we were, we were a close family and it was wonderful, but maybe almost in a way that he valued other people's families or others, maybe as imperfect as they are, maybe the love that other families have for each other or, um, the relationships or the value of, of what they have. You know, that's very easy to do when you interact with someone from a different background is like, oh, this is how we do it. This is the best way. And maybe almost devalued what they have to offer. And maybe some of the things about what you do or the things, your relationships, or what your experiences are better, but they also have things that are valuable.
Speaker 2 00:24:55 And I think I learned to recognize, um, recognize that you don't have to, like, even though your family is different, even though you have all these problems that I'm not used to like divorce and maybe drugs or, um, you know, family squabbles, just multitudes of people, problems, like what you have is still, you know, you still have something valuable. And I, um, I see that, I see what you have is good and learning, learning, learning, learning that's there. And also I think learning that, um, I'm not any different you and I maybe from very different backgrounds and there are very real differences between us, but, but we can still, um, at a very human level. There's, there's ways that I am like you, that, and we can relate on those levels.
Speaker 1 00:25:55 Yeah, no, that's good. I think the subtitle of your book is, oh, that's not, sometimes it was unlikely friends with a life-changing bond. I was, I was thinking it was something along, um, I was unlikely friends, but maybe it's just something you talk about either in the book or I was listening to another podcast you were on, so maybe I got it from that, but just the, the surprise or the unlikely place of learning, like you, as you said, at the beginning, you went into lead her to Jesus and then to discover that like, she actually taught you something about, about life, about God and
Speaker 2 00:26:41 Oh God. Um, I learned so much from her about just having a simple, simple, beautiful faith in Jesus and how powerful that is.
Speaker 1 00:26:51 Yeah. Yeah. So say more about that.
Speaker 2 00:26:56 Well, like she was sick. I remember, um, when she told me and this was early in our friendship and it was one of the things that I was like, well, I don't know if you're a Christian or not because you have this beautiful faith, but yet, you know, you don't have all your beliefs right. The way I think they should be. You know? Um, and I, I remember that was early in our friendship when she was just telling me about the woman who washed Jesus' feet. And she said, um, you know, can you imagine, you know, she, she was just so full and, um, of love for Jesus. She said, I'm not, I'm not even worthy to kiss his big toe. And that's, that was the kind of simple love and faith that she had. That was very beautiful to see.
Speaker 1 00:27:38 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's reminded me a little bit or some of the stuff that you've said, um, a few years ago, this was back one of, one of the first times, one of the first years we were here in LA, we went to, we would often go to the union rescue mission, which was a, a Christian mission for homeless people in downtown LA. And we'd often go there and sing, do some singing, maybe hand out tracks, help feed food that, uh, twice a day they fed people through there later on, we eventually did some, uh, like foot spas for people watching washing people's feet. But one of the first times we were there, I remember going in and looking around. It was a lot of people, a lot of men, I was there divided, uh, male and female, as far as kind of the behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 00:28:33 Like where are you gathering, hanging out? And so on the male side was looking around at, it's a bunch of guys that look like they're on drugs, or they're not very clean. Like obviously they've been listening, uh, living on the streets. And so I come in as a clean put together, white guy, most, most of those people were either Latino or black or, you know, not some of them were, but not all of them were white. And I just had very much had this mindset that I'm going to tell people about heaven or tell people about God. And I remember giving a track and starting a conversation with this one guy who in 15 minutes profoundly changed my perspective of God and, and in a good way, like he, he showed me more of God and, and had a love for Jesus that I didn't even have.
Speaker 1 00:29:33 And a trust that trust in Jesus and challenged me in my own walk with God. And I left there kind of confused because it's like, why is he, why is he in this homeless shelter? Especially because part of my, my mindset was that if I'm truly following God, then I will be always taken care of. And I won't ever face hard economic circumstances. And, um, so yeah, I, I I've thought about that event dif different times as I read, or as I listened to you talk just the unlikely places that we find discover more about God. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:30:15 Yeah. I remember one time sheriff said, you know, if, if I go over and turn on the water at the kitchen sink, God allows me to do that. You know, she had this, she really did have it. And I'm like, wow, I guess I thought I believed in the sovereignty of God, but you really believe that I never, never once thought about, okay. Only because of God's grace, can I go and turn on the water? So yeah, that was, to me that was pretty profound in a very down to earth way, which is how I shared it was very profound.
Speaker 1 00:30:49 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Hey friends, I have a little surprise for you. If you've been enjoying this conversation between Lucy and I, about her book, turtle, heart, I am going to be giving away two copies, two free copies. There is going to be a link in the description of this podcast episode. Just click on that link. It'll take you to a page where you enter your email and the first two people to enter their email will be the winners of this giveaway. So if you would like your own copy of turtle heart, you have not read it yet. And you'd like to get it for free. Just go ahead and click the link in the description or visit www.asherwhitmer.com forward slash turtle Hart and enter your email. And the first student enter will receive a free copy of Lucy's book. That there's, there's two areas that I'd like to talk about, but I don't want to take too much time here. I'm trying to figure out which one would be best at least to start with. But what are, what are some ways like at, as you look back on that experience and you're now you're living in a new area, I'm assuming you're still, what, two, three years into Maryland, or have you been there for a while?
Speaker 2 00:32:00 Yeah, no, it's about, I've lived here as long as we're married, so it's been a little over two years.
Speaker 1 00:32:04 Yeah. And, and so it's a new, a new church setting a new, are you largely interacting with Anabaptist people or,
Speaker 2 00:32:16 Yeah, I'm largely, I'm largely in, I live in the country. Um, there's actually a lot more, um, antidote to, I mean, I, I shouldn't say there's, uh, there's, I don't know. Maybe it's the place where I live right here in pleasant valley valley. There's a lot of new order, Amish and Mennonites. Like there's just a fairly, there's probably more, a bigger percentage of the population maybe, or at least right here in pleasant valley and back home and rested where I grew up in west county. Um, so in a way, and I had, yeah, I had pretty deep roots in the community there, um, with Mennonites. Yes. But also with non Mennonites, I had friendships. I had a variety of friendships there. And so here it feels like, um, I really haven't got outside very far outside of my church and a few neighbors. Um, but, but yeah, so largely at this point I'm mostly interacting with Anabaptists, at least in personally with the, with the new, with the new friends that I've made.
Speaker 1 00:33:13 How have, like, obviously your relationship with Charlene has changed the way you think about and relate with, with people who are like Charlene, who come from that background, um, or, or sorry, who come from a different background even then your own, uh, whether that's exactly like Charlene's or not. How has your relationship with Charlene, how does that impact the setting you live in now? Like, are there things that you, you think about or you, you intentionally do now to, I, I haven't thought through this question real thoroughly, so I'm, I'm trying to articulate what I'm trying to get at, but, um, you know, like, whether that's, whether that's the way you relate to your neighbors or whether that's even just people within the Anabaptist community, has it, has your experience with Charlene changed the way you relate to other Anabaptists?
Speaker 2 00:34:19 That's a good question. I have never thought about that before. Um, there was a time, like right after I knew Shirlene, um, and I felt like, and I was, um, and part of the story is maybe, I don't know how much part of the story that part of my journey with Charlene was, um, confusion over my sexuality and just confusion. Like, I think as a result of knowing her, like my mind was, I felt like my mind was really brought in and I learned a lot of big things and I didn't really feel many anymore. I felt way bigger than Mennonites. And I didn't really feel like I could fit into the end of that piece. Um, and that, that happened like after I knew her and I don't feel that way anymore. I feel like I'm pretty authentically, deeply Mennonite, you know, it's just kind of, that's the way I grew up.
Speaker 2 00:35:13 And so I was, this is where I was born in, even if I like, you know, even if I like thinking outside the box the general way, I think it's definitely very, um, and so I don't, and I, and I've died to realize that yeah, we're just people know, and yes, I do fit in and yeah, there's a wide variety. They're not just like, you know, not just like my home church either. Like there's a lot of other people that may feel like I do that are within the unpack. Um, so, but I would say for awhile after I knew Charlene, like knowing her made me feel like I didn't sit in and I would say that faded now with time, but
Speaker 1 00:35:52 Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to ask you about was, was the part, the sexuality part that you touch on in the book. Um, and that, again, I, I have not read the, the end of the story or the whole story, so I'm not sure what all you, you process, but what I've seen, what I've gathered so far is you're slowly waking up. There were different things early on in your relationship that, that, um, made you wonder if it was interesting reading it. I knew, um, you had written some articles about, uh, same sex attraction. And so I knew that this story must involve that. And so maybe I was looking for it a little bit, but it was interesting, there were things that were happening that as a reader, I was like, this lady's gay, or this lady's lesbian. And yet in your writing, you didn't acknowledge that yet.
Speaker 1 00:36:50 Um, and then, and then you started talking about, you know, the Peck on the lips and, uh, asking her, asking you to sleep in, in her bed with her and different things that eventually started you began processing, like, is this, is this lady gate, is she, when she says she loves you? Is she, is, is it meaning more than just kind of friendship? I love you sort of thing. Um, what, what was that process like for you? And do you mind talking about some of the struggles that, that it may be led, led you to sort through?
Speaker 2 00:37:24 Well, like a lot of the little clues that I was careful to put in the book, um, I didn't catch on today at all at the time, because that was not in my mind. That was not from my background. Um, and so, and I think even, yeah, like that was like maybe some of the stuff for the incidents or the way things that would have been. Yeah. Very obvious. Like, I didn't actually completely process till in retrospect afterwards, you know, after she passed away and I was reading her story, her story, but, um, can, can you just re rephrase your question again? Cause I, I feel like I kinda lost where I was going with that. Can you, can you say it again so I can think about it, but
Speaker 1 00:38:16 Yeah, absolutely. I, um, my question was what, what was that process? What was it like for you to kind of awaken to the fact that this lady's trying to have a, or is it again, I don't know. Is she trying to have a same-sex relationship with you or is it just kind of her, her, um, desires bubbling out? Like, was she intentionally trying to pursue that with you? I don't want to give don't give away too much of the story.
Speaker 2 00:38:51 No, I would. I would say she was, and I don't know that I completely thought upon to that until even like, I was never played. Sure. And I don't know that I completely caught onto it until even after, but I'm, I'm pretty sure she wasn't initially. And then she was very lonely though. I know she was initially like, she thought, okay, you know, I'm lesbian. She thought I was as well. I'm pretty, you know, and, and she, yeah, she was trying to start a relationship like that kind of a relationship initially, because yeah. And I don't want to go on into details of the story. It's all like elec leaders read it for themselves, but, but I, but she, I know she did have that in her mind initially, but she was also just lonely. Like she just, whether, you know, it didn't have to be a lesbian relationship. She was very hungry for a friendship. And so that I think was somewhat confusing to me because I wanted to meet your emotional needs. And then I was very confused about, oh, is this wrong? Because, because you're lesbian. And so is this the wrong kind of a relationship? Um, that was very confusing for me.
Speaker 1 00:39:54 Yeah. And, uh, there's several questions I want to ask, but I want to be careful with your time. The first one maybe is, um, uh, I just lost my first one, the second one.
Speaker 1 00:40:13 What was it? Hey, listeners. I wanted to take a moment and talk to you about the unfeigned Christianity membership program. If you've been enjoying this conversation between Lucy and I, about her book, turtle, heart, you may be interested in learning about the unfeigned Christianity membership program as a part of the membership program. You receive expanded versions of podcasts, interviews such as this. Another thing that members get is two deep dive essays a month that look at something Christians are wrestling through right now. So for instance, the construction has been something that many are talking about and processing. And so in a few days, I'm going to be releasing a deep dive essay that looks at is deconstruction destructive and kind of wrestling through what leads people to deconstruct and is it right or wrong to deconstruct? And how can we deconstruct in a way that actually leads to something better than just kind of negativity or, or even another posture towards it is just to avoid it.
Speaker 1 00:41:11 Like no, any deconstruction is bad. And, and so that's an example of a essay that's coming up. We have a lot of essays already published that you'll receive access to such as, is it wrong for Christians to masturbate thinking through the black lives matter movement? What Robbie's fall tells us about how we handle brokenness in the church and many more types of deep dive essays is this sounds like something you're interested in visit www.asherwhitmer.com forward slash member and become a member today it's as cheap as $10 a month. That gives you access again to expanded podcast episodes, as well as deep dive essays, twice a month and everything that's in the archives. Again, the address is www.asherwhitmer.com forward slash member. You were talking about the, um, oh, the, the challenge of like, do I continue in a relationship with this person now that I know she's lesbian? So that's that's one question. The second one, what is, did you, did it cause you to struggle? You, you mentioned you referenced your own struggle with sexuality. Did that struggle come because of the fact that she thought you were lesbian and then you like PRI processing, like what what's that all about? Or
Speaker 2 00:42:25 So, um, well, first of all, like I never, I never considered giving up our friendship, like, because she was lesbian. Like I was going to be your friend like that, wasn't a question in my mind. It was more, it was more like, what do I do with this? How do I relate to you in a way that's pure? Because now I don't know how to act. And I don't know if my actions are right, because like I never wear it. If it's another girl, Hey, tell girls no big deal. You know, we're just, we're us. And now all of a sudden I need to start relating to you. I mean, I need, okay. So if you're lesbian and is that mean, you're like, you're like a guy and, and how do I relate to someone that I can't just be a girl with? Um, and like then starting to, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:11 Like if she, that, like, am I really going to be at, maybe I'm completely because like, I love you so much, you know, like I loved her so much, like so deeply in a way that I'd never had a friendship with anybody else before, but, um, you know, now that I'm here, I can look at it much more realistically, but I was very, very sheltered and very, um, you know, I never had sex. I didn't, I didn't, I had crushes on guys, but I didn't, you know, I didn't know how to process, like who I was like, if I have these feelings for you, does that make, you know, does that make me lesbians? And, um,
Speaker 1 00:43:56 Sorry.
Speaker 2 00:43:58 Yeah. So it was, it was, it was definitely part of that. Um, yeah, it's, it's something I talk about in the book. I don't know if I go into a lot of, because some of that even happened after, after she passed away where I was like, um, now where am I? Like, I feel so, so different than everybody else. No. And part of that is because of our relationship in the place, because the deep places that I went with her that I didn't didn't know what to do with afterwards.
Speaker 1 00:44:25 Yeah. So it was more your own affection for her that made you wonder about you are not just the fact that she thought she could, that you are the kind of person she could have a relationship with.
Speaker 2 00:44:41 Well, that made me mad at first. Like when I thought, oh, you're, you're wondering if that made me mad at first. That was my first initial thing, because, because that had never entered my mind and I didn't want to be associated or thought of as a gay person, but then, then after I got over that first flush of emotion, yeah, it was, there was just definitely, we loved each other very deeply and we had a very deep emotional connection and there was a lot of friction, a lot of, yeah, there was a lot of friction in our relationship as well. It was a very, um, maybe in some ways draining, maybe in some ways fulfilling, but, but, but it was a confusing, just trying to weigh to what my emotions to her work and if they were, if they were right, because now I didn't know how to act anymore.
Speaker 1 00:45:34 Yeah. Well, thank you, Lucy, for, for sharing and for honoring, uh, tshirt Charlene's life with this book, did she ever, you waited to write it until she passed away or did she know you were writing?
Speaker 2 00:45:52 She knew I talked to her about it and she knew I was going to write a book about her, has a book about her and it ended up, it was going to be a book about us and a lot about her. And it ended up being a book about us and a lie about me. And that's not because I'm like, oh, I want to write about me. And naturally it's because I can only write from my perspective, I can't write from her perspective. It's just, so I wrote the story that I knew and the story I experienced. And it's, it tells a story about our friendship.
Speaker 1 00:46:20 Yeah. Yeah, no, that's good. It's very good. I ha I highly recommend it. Um, I, it's an easy read. Uh, it's a memoir it's stories, so it it's, you, you do well at weaving in the processing and the conflict in bedded within a story. And those are some of the best books, best ways to help the rest of us process life as well. So where can people find it if they want to go get it for themselves?
Speaker 2 00:46:50 So you can get it online at Amazon or Barnes and noble online. Um, and maybe if you local bookstores, it's not necessarily in a lot of bookstores, but, um, you can also order directly from me, um, if you want to take the trouble to do that. But, um, my website is send to Jacob.
Speaker 1 00:47:13 Yeah. And that's a, I definitely recommend subscribing to Lucy's blog as well. I have followed her, excuse me, off and on for the, I mean, I follow your blog. I don't read every blog post, but since I think the first time you reached out to me, so six or seven years probably. And you do really well at tackling the ones that I read or when you're tackling like issues of that, that are challenging to Christians that are especially, uh, especially this sort of thing where it might be stepping out of our box, our stereotypes, you blog about many different things. And so, yeah, people can definitely go check out on your blog, send it to Jay Kinzinger singer type, the author.com. Thank you for coming on here.
Speaker 1 00:48:57 I think Christianity is brought to you by our members at Patrion as a part of the membership program. You receive to keep dead essays a month and expanded versions of all our podcasts interviews. If you would like to become a member visit www dot Nashville, wipper.com forward slash unfit Christianity podcast is also a part of the tune networks, the restorative faith collective, where we have conversations about race perspectives and relationships in a Baptist context to learn about more articles and podcasts visit www dot restorative faith, collective.org. The second network is the kingdom outpost, where we talk about what it looks like to live as Jesus's nation in today's world for more podcasts and articles, visit kingdom outpost.org. Thanks for listening.
