What Leaders Owe the People They Lead | Cliff Stoltzfoos

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Competitive edge is never technology. It is your people. With AI. It's becoming an interesting thing, but I think that still rings true today, that your competitive edge is your people. And if you can help your people come to work with more joy, with more energy, with more trust, with more relationship and connection, I challenge any leader out there to ask themselves if that were true, that they came with more joy, more connection, more relationship energy, they brought that to their work. Would I not see this times 10. Come back. [00:00:33] Speaker B: Hello and welcome back to Unfeigned Christianity, where we are on a journey of becoming a people who are theologically anchored in Jesus, emotionally and spiritually healthy, so that we can love and disciple others. Well, you may have noticed we missed a week last week, and I apologize about that. I had prepped this interview that I'm going to be sharing with you today, and I recorded the intro and a blurb to go with it. And when I went to edit it, I realized I had my mic on mute the whole time. And so we also had company last week. My brother and his wife and their family were out to visit, which was we had a wonderful time. But all that to say I did not have time to scramble Wednesday morning to get the episode ready. So I just kind of decided, okay, we'll give a break and then come back this week, first week of April, post Easter celebrations. Hopefully you all had a wonderful Easter celebration remembering the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I'm excited for today's episode. I have the honor of interviewing my boss, Cliff Stalsfus. I work, my day job is working for lifex Marketing, and I serve as I help out with a number of things from website building to messaging and so forth. But my primary role is being a account manager for our clients, where I am the advocate and kind of consultant, marketing consultant for them as regards to their marketing. And so that's what our company is. We do marketing. But more specifically, the mission and purpose of LIFX marketing is to multiply wholeness in the lives of our team, our clients and community. And by living like Jesus. And today I want to talk with Cliff around. What does it look like to do business and live like Jesus? That was a question that kind of spurred him into getting into business in the first place. So often there's kind of this tension of even when a Christian might start a business, the faith aspect can sometimes be kind of a cover or a slap. And I don't mean I know there's a lot of fine businessmen out there who wrestle with that tension and are seeking to live faithfully to Jesus as they lead a business. But that's kind of the question that got Cliff into business. And I think Cliff has done a wonderful job of building a company that seeks to not only internally how the employees are treated and the values of the company that resemble someone who's following Jesus, but also then out from there how we relate and interact with our customers, our clients, and then even the community around us, like lifx has done a lot to empower us as employees to be able to invest in our community. And so I wanted to talk to him around that concept of what does it look like to be do business and live like Jesus? And so that's what we get into today. Stay tuned. There's a tool that LIFX is developing called Team Pulse that helps leaders get a pulse of where their team is at so that they're not blindsided by the fact that their team is feeling burned out or by issues completely unrelated to work, but might be affecting how they show up in their work. So we get into that towards the end of the episode as well. And I'll have more details about how to become familiar with the tool and even a free trial with the tool towards the end of the episode. So stay tuned for that. And now for my interview with Cliff. All right. Welcome, Cliff, to Unfeigned Christianity. [00:04:45] Speaker A: Thanks, Astrid. It's an honor to be here. It really is. [00:04:49] Speaker B: I've been bugging you for a bit, a number of things. I've been bugging you to start a podcast with lifx. I've been bugging you to get you on the podcast, and now here you are. Thanks for obliging me. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah, it's good to jump in. It's good to jump in here into this conversation with you. Always the need to do it and to. To speak up and hear your own voice, I think is the challenge and [00:05:18] Speaker B: the fear that is I. When whenever I'm re listening to myself or editing it, it's very quick. I. I spend as little time listening to myself as possible. So just for context for our listeners, Cliff is my boss, one of them. He's the main one. He's the. The one that I could ax me at any time, although there's probably a couple that could. That could do that. Having said that, he's not a threatening boss. I've really, really enjoyed working for Cliff and for the team at lifx. Lifx Marketing is my day job. This podcast is the thing I do on the side, and I started out freelancing with you guys in 21, I think it was the very end of 21, and then full time here the last couple of years. And one of the things that made me want to have you on was just hearing your vision for business and living like Jesus. And so that's what we're going to talk about. We're going to get into what does it look like to do business and live like Jesus. The framework that I grew up in very much had. And maybe I guess I didn't forewarn you about this, but I don't know if this resonates with you at all or not, but very much had kind of living like Jesus in missions and business kind of at odds or like it was two different pursuits. And so that's been one aspect where I'm kind of. I don't know if you'd say deconstructing, but just kind of relearning what is all of life, even our business pursuits look like when we, when we do it like Jesus. And so I'm looking forward to getting into that. Maybe just to set the stage a little bit. Do you want to give some background who you are, where you come from? You're, you're. You live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Yeah. Whatever context of your own personal background you want to get to and then obviously kind of leading into what got you into business to begin with. [00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll share a few things. There's. This is where sometimes I say there's not a lot and then I talk for five minutes and I'm not sure where that all. What's good there. But I do come from a large family. There was 11 children. And sometimes I wonder. This probably has some pros and cons, but sometimes I think that I have a bit of a survival of the fittest mentality that can come through simply because there were so many of us. And, you know, like, you sat down and you started eating because, I mean, not that we were. We didn't have enough of food as, as children, but, you know, you wanted to get the good stuff and you just started eating and it's, it's been interesting. My wife comes from a smaller family, and they approached mealtime very differently. Family life is very different, and there's pros and cons to both, but it certainly has shaped, I think the person that I, that I am certainly shaped the person that I am and who. And who some of the challenges I face. Their strengths. There's weaknesses, as we all know in our families. Like there's, there's good and bad Things that we have to learn to mesh and grow from. But I grew up on a farm, which is very different from what I do today. And I did not love farming, did not love animals so much. I mean, I'm not much of an animal person. But one thing that growing up on the farm taught me was the importance of work and how to work. It's been really. It's been helpful. I don't have a high education. In fact, I have a ninth grade education. [00:09:13] Speaker B: I don't know if I knew that. [00:09:16] Speaker A: And I would say my ninth grade education, my ninth year was, it could have been better. Could have been a lot better. Was that. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Was that because your school only went to ninth grade or you chose to drop out? [00:09:32] Speaker A: That's what my parents valued. That's where they decided it would stop. Like, I was never asked if I wanted to go to high school. And we were homeschooled, and so a couple of few things together here. My mom, there's 11 children there. You know, we were. Some of us were pretty close together. Homeschooled on a farm. We were needed on the farm. You know, it's a funny. Dad would say, dad had a friend who he would. He would crack this joke, and dad really liked it. I don't actually agree. That thing is, it's true, but. But he would say people go into high school and college to learn. Learn the things that they failed to learn in grade school, which we all know that is not true. But it was this comedian slash Amishman that would talk at crazy conferences and things that my dad would go to. But they really thought that work and working together as a family was important. And so high school was never a question for me. That changed, I think, with some of my younger siblings, but. And it's different for our children. And there's some disciplines that I also didn't learn there that I've talked about with my wife and children a number of times. It was later on in life I had to learn the discipline of homework and seeing things through. And I still face that challenge today. Whereas my children learned that if they didn't do their schoolwork at school, their homework, it gets done, it has to get done. That's a really good discipline. So, yeah, that's. That's a little background there. [00:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we share. I. I knew we shared. I kind of had a blip moment there, but we shared the homeschooling origin story as far as what we grew up in, considering sending our older two to school next year. And so that's Something I think about is I don't know if they quite realize how it's not going to be just hanging out with your friends all day. You're going to have to get work done and otherwise you bring it home and have actually longer school. But I think it'll be good. Could be good for them if I understand. So again, for a little bit of context, I knew about this Cliff. I went to Bible school with Trina back in. Oh, when was that? 09 or 2010? [00:12:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say 09. I think 089 would have been the years. There was a time. So if you went. If she went to SMBI as a student when we were dating, she was also there, I think two years prior to that or a year or so. I'm not sure exactly which year you [00:12:28] Speaker B: overlapped, but I think you were dating at that. Okay. The time. Yeah, if I'm remembering correctly. So I think that's when I first heard the term or the word Cliff Stolzfus and then the name. Talking about you as a term, you start. When did you start laudate? Did you start that? You kind of got it going. [00:12:56] Speaker A: Um, I helped start it. It wasn't just me. It was a. It was a few of us friends that would have started about three to four years prior to that. [00:13:10] Speaker B: Okay. [00:13:11] Speaker A: I believe I was 16 or. No, I was. I was 15 or 16 when that. When it first started to develop. And. And then I think we made our first official recording when I was 16. [00:13:26] Speaker B: Interesting. But then, so here's like, you're. You're slightly older than me, but you're not terribly older than me. And it must have been ladate that I first heard your name because I remember hearing this. This really young guy was a part of starting it and I was like, man, what am I doing with my life? And, and then, and then I heard you and Trina were dating and she's older than you. Yeah, and I was dating at the time a girl that was also older than me. And so it was. It was like. Because my dad was younger than my mom, but otherwise, as far as peers and stuff, that wasn't really happening. Yeah. And my, my wife is a different, different girlfriend at the time, but my wife is also older than me. And so that. That's kind of. My introduction to Cliff Stahlsfoots was like, man, he's really going after things and he's, you know, gave me permission to be comfortable in the relationship that I was in. I don't remember when I met you that Kind of. Because I think I first met some of your siblings, whether it was Hilda or Delmar, through some interaction that they had with my older siblings. Yeah, I can't remember when that first [00:14:43] Speaker A: happened, but I do have a memory and. Well, I was gonna say I do have a memory of SMBI with the you in class and I think it was Frank Reed's class and I don't remember the topic, but I remember some of the discussion and you were part of it. [00:14:58] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [00:14:59] Speaker A: Anyway, so it's funny. So I do have that. That's like my earliest memory of you. But the. And I would have been visiting Trina for a little bit. Yeah, I think. [00:15:10] Speaker B: Boy, I don't remember. I'm not sure what we discussed. I mean a lot of things were discussed. And then Phil, Phil was a pretty good friend from SMBI and he was, he grew up with you, a good friend of yours. And so that's when I started hearing more. You guys worked together at. I don't know if it would have been on the farm or you also worked for a guy who did gelato, is that correct? [00:15:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that was my first like official job that was not on the farm. You could say official job. Yeah, it would have been. I would have taught school right around that time as well then for a little bit or just part time, but that would have been. And Phil, Phil and I worked together then. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And Phil now like he's the one that got me hooked up with you guys back in 21. And so Lifex is, was largely started with friends of yours, but now we're, we're a team of. Have we hit 20 yet? Close to 20. [00:16:11] Speaker A: I mean including, including part time people. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And expanding beyond even more than just friends of yours. It's. It still tends to be friends or connections of somebody on the team, obviously. So all that context, it's, it's being in our mid-30s now, it's always kind of interesting to look back and see some of these random connections that sprout into things. And then some things that you thought would, would be long lasting relationships or whatever don't necessarily continue on as long as, as long as they do or you anticipated what, what got you. So if you grew up on the farm, obviously that is business, but like you said, it's very different than what you're doing now. Maybe I don't know if you want to address one at a time or both together, but the question I'd love to jump into is what got you into business as far as running a business yourself. And then why marketing? Why not building houses or other things? [00:17:26] Speaker A: That, yeah, that's a good question. So I grew up, and we had both grown up in the era where computers, household computers became a thing. So they were just, just coming in, Internet was becoming a thing. And so as having parents that lived very long prior to that, they didn't know how to use technology very well. And I, I had a, I had a knack for it. I, it was a bit of a, I love to, I love to figure things out. That was the, from, from a kid I remember like playing with engines. I probably ruined a few engines. I think dad got smart and only gave me engines that were already ruined so that I didn't like disable some important equipment. But I love to tinker with stuff and see if I can figure out what, like how it, you know, what made it come apart, what made it go back together, how to, how to make those things work. And so I, when it came to computers, to this day I still fix things for my parents. Like if they have a problem they'll probably call me and which can be a little frustrating sometimes, depending what the problem is. But I'm happy to do it for them. Most of the time I'm happy to do it for them. So I enjoyed technology, I enjoyed working with that kind of thing. And so when, when I was 14 or 15, this Italian Jew came to dad and wanted to do this gelato. So he grew up in Israel and Italy and he had just. Working for an Italian Jew is a very interesting thing. That's a whole nother conversation that job and what that taught me. But it was really interesting because he set that up on the farm and that would have, that was one of the first jobs that I had. I worked with my sister for a number of years and then that's also, that's where Phil and I work together and that's also where I met Trina and through that working together for a while. So we started dating and anyway, so there's a lot of things that started with Patango and that was the name of the company, Patango and it still runs today. It's no longer involved with my parents farm. It's completely separate. But that's where that started. [00:19:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:49] Speaker A: And yeah, like with, with the direction it went, I, I, I've been a bit of an entrepreneur but I wouldn't say it was just, it was just that there were several things that I wanted. And this is where Trina likes to say that she like, she's like you started the business and I'm like, had I married someone else, lifex would probably not exist. [00:20:14] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:20:15] Speaker A: And the. So this, it's funny because like in the whole thing of decisions and how one decision affects a whole following sequence. Trina had a photography business and was a really good wedding photographer, did a lot of that. And in the. When we started, when we got into marketing, she had an eye for design and she would do some of the website design work. And so as we. After we got married, we continued shooting weddings, but traveling every weekend was not practical. [00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:55] Speaker A: And so with, with the, the fact that she was running a business, I was managing Patango and then I, I started a partnership with my brother in manufacturing chicken houses. And I was a bit of an opportunist. I saw an opportunity, I took it, I was willing to try it. And so I bought into my brother's business. We started manufacturing chickens. Manufacturing chicken buildings and a pastured poultry operation and grew that as well as did egg production as well. And then I moved away from Patango to another company, worked for them for a few years as a rental coordinator while doing the chicken building production as well as egg production and this photography business. And in that. And this is where it kind of transitions to Y marketing specifically in that it was frustrating to my brother and I why when we. We were working with some marketing companies and it was frustrating that we couldn't get them to. To understand what it is like we needed the marketing to accomplish. We would say, well, we, we don't actually want that kind of lead. Like they won't work with us, we can't work with them. Like we're not a fit for each other. But those were the kinds that was the only kind we would get. And I was like, this is. There's got to be another way. And so I decided I'm going to do this myself. So we dove into it. I did it for that business, which is Stalsfus Layers and later became the mobile chicken house and also for my dad's cottage that he has for married couples, a few and then just a few local businesses. And that's where it started. And I loved. What I found is I love the competitiveness of the market. I love again, marketing requires figuring things out. And I see that in you and other team members on the team now. Like, it's what makes us who we are is that we really do like to help solve problems. You have to be careful not to take that too far into your marriage and other things. But solving problems is Fun. [00:23:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting hear you talk about tinkering because even with the advent of AI and so forth, you are constantly tinkering with softwares and tools. And then you ship something to us and be like, hey, I think this could really help us. And by the time I get a feel like man, yeah, I could see how we could really use this, then you have a new thing that you're tinkering with. But that's good. That's actually something I've admired about you and your leadership is it's way farther down the road than what the rest of us team tends to be, particularly as it pertains to the business. And I'm sure you have many sleepless nights where you're thinking about. Because marketing is extremely competitive and on one hand, on one hand it could feel like an easy industry because it does feel like there are a lot of agencies, there's a lot of opportunity to sell people on the idea of marketing without following through. And so if you're a good company that can follow through, you can get an edge quickly. On the other hand, while there is some science to marketing, there's also a great deal of art. And so it's, it's one of those things you don't ever want to over promise. And I mean we are not a perfect marketing company. There's lots of things we're constantly learning and mistakes we make and learn from. But I can see, yeah, it makes sense now kind of how that evolution evolved. And I see some of the things that were true of you as a young kid on the farm that are still true of you today in your leadership and so forth. What I remember, I think it was soon after I came on or maybe right around the time I came on full time, you, we as a company, you stepped back to get clear on the mission of LifeX, which we clarify. Like it was interesting to me because I would have felt at the time that lifex had a fairly distinct mission compared to some other businesses and that retreat that time together was really good and it clarified our mission even further. But it like one of the, one of the ways that it really clarified, and this is totally an aside, I would just throw this out to anybody else. With organizations where you think you have a clear vision or mission even, how has it changed like every aspect of your company, whether it's the way you serve your, the people you're trying to serve or you as a company yourself. Because sometimes people talk about mission statements and they have to pull it up and Kind of remind themselves of what it is. And it's a little ambiguous as to how that plays into daily aspects of life. And I don't know how you feel. I feel like it's made things. I'm searching for the word, but it's synthesized. Is that the word? Or synchronized everything in the company where we're all filtering through that grid of are we fulfilling the mission? Multiplying wholeness in the lives of our team, our clients, team and community. I forget the orders of the event, but multiplying wholeness in the lives of our team, clients and community by living like Jesus. It's very simple, very memorable. And that mission, essentially, one of the things that I remember being discussed, we had Brandon west is that his name come in. And he coached us through that. And he kept reminding us that the mission is something you could do with any medium. Like, but this is why you exist as a team. So marketing. It's tempting to tie in something with marketing into our mission, but the reality is we exist to multiply wholeness and we do that by living like Jesus. And we do that through the medium of marketing. But. But the goal is to do that by living like Jesus. And in that time, I remember you talking about wrestling with the question of is it possible to do business and live like Jesus? When did you start asking that question and what kind of urged that burden on further? To actually run a business where you and your team and as much as you have influence over it, your clients can live like Jesus? [00:28:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that. When does sanctification start? That's what I feel like some of these that question can be, is like, when did it start? And I don't know exactly. There's a number of things that Trina and I would have walked through together that would have made this become more central and more critical to us. And that's where I'm just so grateful for the wife that I have and the support and just support and togetherness that we've had in this as we've done business. Originally we wanted it to be something that we did together. And she designed and I took care of the kids while she did designing. And then I did other things while. And I went back to marketing and she did her. She took care of the kids. And what ended up happening was she worked and took care of the kids. Not proud of that. Not. Not proud of that. It's just that's what happened in our. In the early days and trying to. To grow the business and do it well. But in, in this, in this Whole journey. I do want to shout out to Brandon west if. And to anyone listening here, if you need someone who is just full of just. Just loves mission and vision and is so good at bringing that together as a team, you need to talk to Brandon west at FOS Creative. Just. He does an incredible job. He's a good friend. He's also a competitor. But I would just. I'd happily recommend anyone check with him when they're. When they're working on vision and mission and want someone who's just. Who does so well at pulling that together as a team. So really a wonderful experience. And I remember thinking, and I'll go back to the. To the question, but I remember thinking when we were working on the mission together that, like, for one, I struggled to create those. To craft those words and make them come together like I wanted. And the mission statement that we had up to that point, I didn't want to tell anyone what it was. Like, I was embarrassed by it. Like, yes, it was clear, but I felt like that I was like, if this is why we're doing business, what are we doing? Like, I feel. I felt like a cog in a wheel. And I don't like to feel like a cog in a wheel. And the. And I don't want people to feel like a cog in a wheel. And so it was difficult for me to look at our mission statement and be excited because I was like, I'm pretty sure that no one else on the team is excited about this mission statement either. Pro tip, if you as a leader are not excited about your mission, your team for sure isn't. [00:30:57] Speaker B: So that needs to change. Had you developed that original one yourself or how did that one come about? [00:31:05] Speaker A: I did most of the work and Chad helped me develop it the rest of the way. But we used StoryBrand's framework. Their mission made simple framework to develop it. And so it was good. It was a starting place, but I was not excited about it. I was like, this feels boring and uninspiring. And so when Brandon asked me what our mission was, because he had just given a talk, and I was like, man, I want what you have. Like, whatever that. Whatever you're having, I'll have it. And he was like, what's your current mission? And I said, I'm not going to tell you. He still tells that story today. I was too embarrassed to tell him. And then he sat down with us and I remember that. That mission coming together and when he first presented, like, what we had drafted and what he thought Based on the conversations we were having when he first presented that, I remember thinking, like, I felt like a proud parent, not because I had developed it. And this is the thing that I love and I don't like. This is not a. This is not meant to sound boastful. It's just something that I look back on and it. It moves me every time I think about it. But the team came up with that. That mission was something that they helped generate. I think I said far less there than. Than most of them. And that's what I love about it, is that they were making this come together. And now we're talking about multiplying wholeness in the lives of our team, clients, and communities by living like Jesus. And I was like, that's amazing. And we don't even mention marketing. And I can be excited about that. And so, yeah, to what you were saying earlier, it has become a filter. It helps guide our decisions as to what kind of benefits we have as a team, how we take care of our clients, how we. What we do to try to impact our communities, all of these things. It just comes back to the fact of we do this by living like Jesus. Well, what does that look like? And I. I can't say exactly when in business, I was like this. I want to do this like Jesus. But there are several. There were several situations that Trina and I experienced early on in our marriage that called us to commit to walking a path where, when we wanted to be faithful in. In a few things, one of them was stewardship, and one of them was we didn't want skeletons in our closet. And we have both seen that. And some of it, or actually most of our experience in seeing that has been working for businesses that are owned by Christians. And it's incredibly painful to me to see that. And probably one of the greater sadnesses that I just experience on occasions when I see that happening, where someone says, I'm a Christian and I see their business, and there's real separation there in the values that Jesus taught and lived and the values that their business would teach and live by. How they treat their people, how they treat clients, and for as much time as we spend working in life, that's really sad. So with that, there was something that was a really valuable lesson for us. We worked for an organization. We were involved in an organization and worked with them where after working for them for a few years, we were asked not to return. And when we asked for clarity as to why that decision was made, we weren't given an answer. They just said, like, you need to accept this. That was hard. That was really hard. And it felt wrong, but we didn't. It was outside of our control. If we asked for clarity, it wasn't given. And we. It was interesting. I think you often see this in a marriage, but I would wrestle with this and struggle, and Trina would be more okay with it, and she'd be like. She'd find peace with it, and then I would find peace with it, and she would struggle with it. And we kind of went back and forth just like the pain that this had caused. And in that, we learned a really valuable lesson. And I looked back, and by the way, that story didn't end like, we were asked not to come back. But then the organization later reversed that decision and came back and asked us again after on be Involved, we were promised clarity on the decision, but we were not given clarity. And that was really hard. And for years, we had to work. We continued working with them, but without clarity being given. And we learned that. The leadership lesson, we learned in that which we have to be careful how much we pull from negative experiences and say, I don't want to be like that. Um, but what we learned there was the importance of. Of even when you have the power or the authority and you think it's within your right not to give an explanation, like, you don't owe an explanation, that actually it calls you to a greater level of transparency, not less. If you have the. Just because you have the right not to not to give an explanation for your actions does not mean you don't. You shouldn't. And to lead. Lead with clarity and love. And really, it does come down. And this feels so basic. And I feel. It feels almost silly to have to say it in this situation, but it's treating others like you want to be treated. And I think sometimes in leadership, we so often forget that. I'm forgetting to do the basic thing that Jesus asked us to do, to treat other people like I want to be treated. But somehow when I'm in leadership, it's easy to forget that. So that was just a really valuable lesson for us. But seeing experiencing that pain, I knew it wasn't right. And Jesus would have done that. Like Jesus, he lived very differently. He lived very counter to the culture that he grew up in. And we saw that we both were experiencing, of course, good things too, but we just wanted to be faithful in that stewardship of the resources we were given. And so that really comes back to the whole thing of stewardship and living like Jesus and realizing that what we have is not our own. And if I'm. If I'm a caretaker of this, it changes the way I take care of it. I would like to think that I will always take care of my things, my things in, like, the best way possible. But I do take care of other people. But when it. When something is not my own, and I know I must return it to the. To the owner, I really care that that thing goes back to the owner in a way that they will want to let me to lend that to me again. Like, if I need to borrow something, I want. I want to be able to. I want to have a good relationship with that person that I borrowed from. It's no different in the Kingdom of [00:38:45] Speaker B: God, as in the fact that we are borrow. We are stewarding things of God's from God, and we want to steward it in a way that is better, leaves it better. I mean, obviously we can't make it make it better than. I just got a text. I'm not sure if that came through. Did you hear that? [00:39:10] Speaker A: I think I heard a ding or something. [00:39:13] Speaker B: We can't improve upon God's creation, but what I'm hearing you say is stewarding it, whether it's people, finances, belongings, opportunities, whatever. In a way that you feel right about giving this back to God. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I want to be a trusted servant in this. And I. And I've made so many mistakes with this. I. And I still make them. And sometimes I wonder, like, who, man, I don't deserve this stewardship. I mean, I'm reminded that I don't deserve the stewardship that I've been given. But that really is what it is, and you mentioned it. It's far more than finances. It's far more than just, like, the business structure. It's people, it's relationships. And because of that, you're affecting eternity. And so we need to think well past the here and now, the next dollar that I may or may not make, and realize that this. This is having a significant impact. [00:40:22] Speaker B: If today's conversation stirred something in you, if you find yourself wanting to go deeper than just listening, the Unfeigned Christianity membership program might be exactly what you're looking for. It's a formation community for people who are serious about becoming theologically anchored and emotionally healthy so they can love and disciple others. Well, it's a real space where we do ongoing work together. Members get access to teaching resources and ongoing conversation through monthly mentorship calls. The kind of stuff that doesn't make it into the podcast but shapes the people who are in it. You can join at www.asherwhitmer.com member and get started for as little as $5 a month. If you purchase an annual membership, you get a 20% discount. The link is in the show notes below. Yeah, I don't want to make you feel awkward or uncomfortable, but I really do appreciate how you guys as a leadership team, but I sense that it's true of you as a leadership team. I think because it's true of you and Trina as a couple, valuing the relationships and the people who we are not definitely as a team, but even like that's something you frequently remind us of because we're a digital marketing company and we do more than just digital marketing, but that's the bulk of what we do for people. We're on their website, running ads, social media, whatever, and we send some emails back and forth. Maybe every now and then we might record a loom video where we see them, where they see us, but we don't necessarily see them unless we have a meeting with them and so forth. But you're constantly reminding us of the, the human, the people we are serving. Not just these numbers, not just this brand, not just this kind of disembodied entity out there. And it's so easy, like in the era of computers and remote work, and I'm not even sure if I mentioned that earlier, but that we are an all remote team. There is no central office. It can be kind of easy to, to slide into a gravitar type approach to interactions. But remember, like paying attention to when people are going through hard things, paying attention to when people are celebrating something, paying attention to challenges that any one of us on the team or a client is going through. You guys have done that, modeled that well. And when you haven't done it well, you've, you've come back and apologized for it. I think that's a piece too. It's not like anybody's going to be perfect at this. But then owning mistakes and making it right, [00:43:33] Speaker A: that's very kind. I do want to say that we have a team. This is where I joke about it. I like to joke about this. But it's also very true that one of the probably better gifts or skills that I have is that I know how to hire people smarter than myself. And so when I, when I look at our team, really who I get to work with, I'm like, how do I get to work with these people? And really like, it's not, we're not perfect. You mentioned that and I agree with that. Like, we make mistakes. We, we, we don't always get it right and we have to go back and apologize or, or you know, make corrections. But we have such a good group of people that care about each other and care about clients and, and that like I just to some of the things you said, I, I feel like I can not take. Take credit for so much of that because a few, just the team contributing to that so well together collectively and supporting each other in it. It really is incredible. And yeah, yeah, like I said, it's a privilege to work with, with the people that we have on the team. [00:44:50] Speaker B: It's been fun seeing because I would say our, our team has doubled in the last 18 months. Has it been more than double? [00:44:59] Speaker A: Like, I mean that's 18. It has grown a lot. [00:45:04] Speaker B: It's quite double. [00:45:05] Speaker A: But we've added a lot of people and yeah, it's a little fast. [00:45:12] Speaker B: It's been fun to see the adding that many people that fast has its own dynamics. It's forced us to reckon with the fact that we didn't really have any articulated SOPs. And so end of 24, 25 has been spent like trying to refine that process and so forth. But it's been fun to see more and more people kind of just taking initiative to do things that I would have seen leadership team do largely early on in my time, whereas now team members are doing it for each other. I'm a little type A and so I get the things I need to do in front of me and like hammer that out. And some of our other team members in our correspondence back and forth about tasks, they're like, hey, I hope you're feeling better by now. And I'm like, oh yeah, thank you, you remembered. And so myself, I'm trying to learn that to be better in that way of thinking about the people I'm working with, not just the things we're getting done together. What as you. You've mentioned, it's interesting hearing some of this backstory. I'm not sure I was familiar with the, the way you and Trina received, you know, that difficult journey and being let go without an explanation. You have a tremendous desire as a leader to make sure you're in tune with the team and we'll talk about it here in a little bit. Lifx, you and the dev team have developed a tool that I'd like to spend some time talking about. But before we get into that specifically, I'll just say it now the tool is a way team members can regularly report. And so leadership teams can have a very, very quick and yet actually in depth sense of where team members are at at a given time. And that comes from this desire, I think, at least from my observation, this. I think it comes from this desire to take care of your team. Well, to be in tune with it. You felt kind of blindsided by the organization you were working for. Now on the flip side, you're seeking to relate and be in touch in a way so that you're not blindsided as the leader of an organization. What have you learned? I'm kind of combining a couple things here together. Let me see if I can simplify it. What do you feel responsible for? You've touched on it a little bit more. But as I'm sorry you've touched on it. I'd love to hear a little bit more on it. As a leader of a team, what do you feel responsible for when it comes to your team and what have you learned? Why are leaders sometimes blindsided by their team? All of a sudden somebody sends an angry email or decides they're giving a, you know, a notice that they're moving out or something. Obviously there's. There's certain things that life throws people's way that there's. There's always changes that are kind of unexpected. But in general, when it comes to caring for team. Yeah. What do you feel responsible for and. And why do leaders sometimes get blindsided? [00:48:57] Speaker A: It's a good question. It [00:49:03] Speaker B: does it. I'm kind of fascinated by the fact you felt blindsided as someone working for. Does that play at all a role into your motivation to stay in tune or is that. [00:49:17] Speaker A: I think it does, but it's related. It's also separate in the sense that one thing that I mentioned earlier, we have a really good team that I love working with. I want to keep those people. And probably one of the greater fears that I have as a leader is that they will leave and work somewhere else. And I recognize that that has to. I mean, people, not everyone, lifex is where they want to be for all of their life. And that I respect that that's necessary. I mean, I want to understand and I want to be okay with that. But I really. It's painful to lose people, especially when you have such a good team of people. And that's how I feel about our team. And so the reason that we've engaged with some of these things that we have is because I want to know where they're at, what they're experiencing. Is there something that I can do as a leader to help them find fulfillment and success in the work that they're doing? And so that might be. There's a variety of things, and you've alluded to the tool, and we'll talk about that in a bit, I think. Um, but as a leader, I, I think it's my responsibility to, to help people thrive within the environment that I invited them into. I, you know, in asking you to, to commit to working at Life X, I'm asking for a large chunk of your time. And, and I mentioned this earlier, but I don't like to feel like a cog in a wheel. I don't want my team to feel like that either. And yet sometimes I think we all feel that way just a bit like there's, you know, we have to lean into the harness and it's just pure hard and not enjoyable work. Like there's things like that. But I want, I want my team to thrive. And if you look at our mission of multiplying wholeness by living like Jesus, and part of it is in our team, you know, if you spend six to eight hours a day working for lifex, you have several hours you can spend with your family, with your community, you're going to spend time elsewhere. And who am I to like? It is. It's crazy. It's borderline insanity for me to think as a leader that the time you spend working with us is not going to influence the time you spend working with your family or just time you spend with your family. It affects, they affect each other. Just like the time you spend with your family also affects your work and so on. The other things you experience outside of work, I know that coming in that they influence work. Is it not wise for me to also hopefully help that be better flowing in the direction of your family as well? And so I feel like that's an important part, not something we always get right. I think as a leader, that's something we do well to consider, is that you're spending so much time with us. Are you becoming a better person? Are we doing our part in helping you hopefully take steps towards being a more whole person for your family as well? Because you give us a lot of energy and, you know, if you spend a day in strategy, your brain is tired to the end of that day. Yet that's part of what we do. [00:52:46] Speaker B: My therapist recently told me that I need to be sure and get eight hours of sleep because all my work is brain work. And I had never heard that before he went on to say, you need more sleep when you're doing brain work as opposed to physical work. I had never heard that before. I. I've noticed, like, I've often thought, like, man, when I did construction, like, I'd, yeah, you'd be tired if you woke up after six hours, but you get going and you're fine. And I found myself a couple years into this, really struggling. And some of it, yeah, I was never sure. Am I, like, having gone through some health issues in the recent past? Am I just super sensitive to my body? Should I be plowing through it? That was kind of an interesting nugget to learn that when you're doing brain work, you actually need more sleep. Gave me the permission to. For the last two, two and a half weeks, I've just been not even trying to get up as early as I was trying to do some extra stuff. And I've noticed a big difference. But you talking about the strategy and brain work and how that affects as a family, I actually think I might be getting more done in the time that I'm working because I'm sleeping better. And then with that, then I'm a better person to be around as a family member. I mean, I'll let my family speak to that, but I think I'm. [00:54:24] Speaker A: This is what I want to say. Shout it from the rooftops. We all need to hear that, Asher. That's the thing. I can forget that as well. And for sure if I'm stressed out. You know, you talked about how this past year, there's a lot of changes, and you alluded to it, I think, earlier in the conversation. And this past year is not a year that I desperately want to repeat in all the. In how fast the landscape has changed. And it was a hard year to know how to navigate it. But, yes, taking care of ourselves. And that's something, you know, like. And you're aware of this as a. As a team member. But that's why, like, we've developed some of the benefits that we have, like personal development time, and a few other things for the purpose of making. Of intentionally leaving space for people to take care of themselves. And there's other things as well, but to push us in that direction because we can easily become slaves in our own environment where we just work harder, try to work harder and faster, harder and faster, and then end up giving away a very important part of us that we should not be. Yeah, [00:55:44] Speaker B: there's a lot of things I'd love to keep talking about. Our hour's almost up here. So let's shift because one of the things I wish we had more time to, but I hadn't run it past you as far as how transparent you wanted to get is what does it look like practically to live like Jesus and help your team live like Jesus? And there are some things that you guys, that we do as a company, obviously initiated by you, that are a part of that in ways of generosity, in ways of. You mentioned personal development time where we can take a certain allotted amount of paid time to focus on ourselves. There's a bunch of different things that has shaped benefits and even how we serve clients. But for the sake of time, why don't we shift and talk about Team Pulse? Team Pulse is a reporting software where we as a team get a reminder every week that just reminds. I think I filled mine out this week. I just had this shock. It's like we're on an internal challenge of seeing if we can all fill it out. And I know I missed it on. On Friday when I ended, and I was like, man, did I do it? [00:57:11] Speaker A: I think you filled it out. Yeah. So that's funny, though. [00:57:16] Speaker B: It's a reporting software. It asks what three main questions kind of related to work. And then there's another two or three optional questions that we could fill out a little more details if we want to, but it's not required. And we were using. Ramsey Solutions has a similar tool. We were using it internally. Maybe you want to say more as what the switch was or not, but you've customized this report to tap into even questions like, I don't know how familiar people are with the working genius, but that is put out by the. Is that called the table group? [00:58:01] Speaker A: The table where it puts out the working genius? Yeah. [00:58:05] Speaker B: And it, it. Basically everybody has a working genius. It's divided by six widgets. You have two that you're strong in and two that are frustrations and two that you can do. I won't go into detail about it, but you've. In the report, you've. You've customized it to ask us about whether, you know, what did we do in our genius? What did we do in our frustrations? And it's, it's caused me to pay attention more to the kind of work that I'm. When I'm feeling frustrated, what was the cause? Because there are some times where I've been filling out that report. It's like, you know, I did have frustration, but it didn't have to do with my work. It had to do with, like, I like the task I was doing. There was something else that was frustrating or whatever. It's just, it's helped us verbalize and stay current on the things we're experiencing as a team and we put it in, it ships off. And yes, on one hand it's like who's going to read this? What value does it have? The thing I like about it, the fact that we're not having a face to face meeting is that I can say basically anything I want and nobody's going to give me an immediate reaction. You guys steward it well in the sense that you do engage it, you do respond. And so it's not like we're just shipping it off into the ethereum. And then we have seen from leadership we have seen direct, tangible changes when we express either either or like I'm doing more strategy because I mentioned in there that I enjoyed that. But there's been times when it's maybe a negative thing that you guys pay attention to and then you address and people can feel that as a result you've made the comment something along the line that a leader can get a deeper wow moment from a one minute report, which is literally unless I take time to fill out there. There are a couple boxes where I could type in longer text but it literally is 30 seconds to a minute to fill out. A leader can get more wow moments than they could in a long meeting. Why is that and what do you mean by that? [01:00:23] Speaker A: Yeah, so it was a lot there. We, we, we did. So you mentioned the weekly report system that we used to have or we used and then we customized and created our own because there were some things we wanted to be able to do that that report system would not allow. And then in building our own we were like, well this is silly to build it just for ourselves because it does so much and it's part of our mission. Like it's one of the first tools that we built that has felt like directly connected to our central mission of multiplying wholeness and just helping leaders help their people. And so you've mentioned the weekly report and that it's a very simple thing to fill out. What's incredible there that I found is by leaving a space, a consistent space for team members to fill out and asking them to consistently fill it out, sometimes there's not a whole lot in there. It's a basic thing and they don't put much in other weeks there's just pure gold. Or maybe it was. And maybe it's like a, it's an Excellent idea that they happen, they share with us or they had a difficult week. Sometimes it's completely unrelated to work. It's a personal challenge that they're experiencing that they have entrusted us with. But we all know, like, I, I'm a firm believer in that that stuff influences work. And so it helps me understand them as a person, what they're going through, as a. Just another fellow human being, what they're going through. It helps me come alongside of them. If there's a way that I can do that and just. And see them in that, in that space, in that struggle, I let them know that I care. Maybe that's what it is. And it also helps me know to pray for them if that's something they want. It also has helped us so often to see frustrations or roadblocks that they're experiencing. And where possible, like, I can't always alleviate those. Like, sometimes a frustration is shared that is, I'm like, I can't. Or sometimes it's can't or won't. Like, depending what it is. Like, we're, we're not going to, we can't, we can't remove it or we won't remove it because of something else. Like, that's something you'll have to wrestle with. Like, there's always those and, you know, and frustrations in our work, we all have to lean into our frustrations sometimes and do things we don't like to do. But by leaving a space for that, I, from what I see as a leader, people become used to just simply sharing the highs and the lows, the challenges that they face. And as a leader, I can see that. And like, in a team of 20 people, I would love to spend time talking to everyone and just spend time catching up, but I can't do that and do anything else. That's all I would do. And especially at a weekly rhythm. But this leaves space for me to actually have a conversation with them. Like, I might follow up with an actual conversation or I'll send them a message, but I can do that based on something that they chose to share with me. I'm not there trying to pry into them and say, like, what's really going on? They chose. They volunteered that information to me as a leader, which is an incredible gift. And so if you're a leader who has those, use it wisely. Value that, because that's going to do so much for you in the relationship with that team member. So that's where that wow moment comes from. I'm like, oh, that's a gift. Sometimes it's just feedback that is a little hard for me to hear. They didn't like something and perhaps it's something that I initiated, but that too is an incredible gift. [01:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So as you mentioned, Team Pulse is for others. I talked about it as a tool that we're using internally, but it is available for others. And you also mentioned, I kind of highlighted work time, but it is a tool for someone to share everything. It could be unrelated to work that they want to put in there. There are some work question, work related questions. But who is. I would love to promote Team Pulse. And obviously this is like, I work for you guys. This is a, I don't know if you call it a bias or what. We develop Team Pulse, but I do see how and as with all tools, you could sign up for it and not properly use it and it's not that effective. But I, I have two friends that I've talked with just in the last six months where they're dealing with some frustrations within the organizations they work for that I, as I sit and hear them talk, I'm like, man, they need Team Pulse. Just because when, when an organization is going through frustration or like when an employee or someone who, even if it's a non profit or like a school, schools are some people that we're, we're targeting with Team Pulse, when someone is going through a frustration that can be really hard to address even when leadership actually wants those kinds of, like, if there's no systematic way of being able to express it, leadership doesn't have to be nefarious and like, I don't want to hear negative, but if there's no systematic way, it can be really hard to kind of break that barrier and be like, hey, I have this frustration to express. It's also a, as you mentioned, a valuable tool for getting to know people. People like hearing the excitements and the winds that they're experiencing is a part of getting to know them. Who would you. So all that to say is I would love anybody leading an organization listening to this. I would love you to check it out. But who would you specifically say Team Pulse is for and who is it not for? [01:06:59] Speaker A: So I think to preface this, I need to highlight someone who has had huge impact on our business and they are also now a client, which if you'd have told me when we started marketing that they would ever be a client, I would have laughed. I would have been like, not in a thousand years. As cool as that would be, they will never be our client, but that is Patrick Lancione and the Table group and the working genius. So we work for them. And he said something that just resonated deeply with me and has become the the vision of Team Paul's. But he said people should find healing at work, not need healing from work. And just sit with that for a moment. If you find healing at work and not need healing from work, how many people do we know that need healing from a work experience or someone on the mission field for working for nonprofits? People like there's so much the work is really good work, but there's been incredible pain that they've experienced through that or burnout and things like that. Team Pulse exists to help that not be a thing, to help people find healing at work, to create workspaces that heal, not hurt. That is our vision. Our mission at Team Pulse is to create workspaces that heal, not hurt. [01:08:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:23] Speaker A: And by opening as a leader, by opening that up and saying, hey, here's a space for you to continually tell me what you're experiencing, whether it's me or something that just something else that you run into, here's a space in which you can do that. You open up a feedback loop that is really difficult to cultivate otherwise. And that's why I find it so valuable. Now of course, like you pointed out, we built the tools, so I may be biased here, but I just think it's an amazing opportunity for an organization and a leader to open up that feedback loop and just leave space for them to receive input from their team. [01:09:05] Speaker B: If you are a leader who cares deeply about your people, but you're tired of guessing how your team is really doing until someone burns out or quits, check out Team Pulse. It's a simple 60 second weekly check in that gives you an honest picture of morale, stress, workload and wins. So you can have better one on ones, catch issues earlier and build a workplace that heals, not hurts. Team Pulse is designed for small and mid sized organizations, schools and nonprofits that want real conversations, not just another corporate survey. Listeners of unfeigned Christianity get two months free if you sign up before December 31st. Just use the link and promo code in the show description below. We've even seen. Well, I'm trying to remember if you've talked about people talking about this, but I've thought about it even in relation to some of what I do with the live Free course and so forth as a coach or a mentor. If that's something you do, doing it with people you work with clients you might have. We don't use it with our clients. It's all an internal piece. But there's. When you're trying to help people heal, having that kind of safe space to, for them to just give whatever they're going through and talk through. [01:10:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:29] Speaker B: Be incredibly valuable. [01:10:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And we actually have a client that is using it in that space with his coaching. He has a mentoring and he has people that use that. And so like I guess coming back to the thing of who is it for? Who is it not for? If you're a leader that cares deeply about your or the people you serve and do you want to keep them? If you have a team of a players and you want to keep them, get Team Pulse or some tool like that. Like I just simply like get something that allows a really easy to engage with space for that. However, if you have a culture of where people are kind of like a widget or a cog in a wheel and that and it's all about the output, Team Pulse is actually going to hurt you and it's going to hurt. It'll hurt people like that because their team will engage with, engage with it. They might put in some information and if nothing happens with that or it's not held well or valued. But let's say there's maybe gossip in the organization that's going to disappear really fast. They won't trust you and those things will actually, I think it'll push against you and people will leave. So it really is important that you care about it. But non profits schools, organizations where people are pouring in so much, especially emotional energy, they need a tool like this. And so I don't know exactly what that looks like. I know a lot of these organizations have tight budgets and so we've made this software very cheap and we offer additional discounts to schools and nonprofits to make it very affordable. But it is, it's so, so worth it to have that connection point. So I think it's for almost everyone because I think everyone down in their heart actually wants to be a good leader. No one wakes up today and says I want to, I want to lead poorly today. [01:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:24] Speaker A: But they perhaps don't have the tools that they need. [01:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Maybe I should use it with my family. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Trust me, I thought about it. My coach has been like man. And I've thought, you know, it'd be so valuable. My family. The problem is I don't know how to get them to fill out the reports. [01:12:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:41] Speaker A: But I've actually Trina and I have Talked about a separate method that we, an idea that we got that gives people a similar how am I feeling today? Kind of approach. [01:12:49] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [01:12:50] Speaker A: That they can just, it's in a physical sense. So haven't rolled that out yet, but that's what I'm thinking of. [01:12:57] Speaker B: That's good. Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned it. It is cheap. It's on a sliding scale as far as the price, like depending on the size of your team. It is a 30 day free trial start. Right. Is that correct? For everybody? So you get four weeks worth without paying a dime. I, if it's engaged well, I think you'd see whether or not this is a good fit for, for your team within a couple of weeks. Obviously if it's something totally brand new, it could take a while to get everybody on the team to, to start filling it out. But even as a paid version, compared to other similar tools, it's, it's pretty cheap. But I do understand there is a lot of like so many softwares out there. I need to get one more and subscribe to this new thing. [01:13:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:54] Speaker B: The question I always think with that is like what Val? Like I'm, I'm confident again we're the, we're the creators of it. But to your point, get some kind of tool like this, even if it's not Team Pulse, because the value you're going to get in return for it will far surpass the, the fee and the, the cohesion that it can bring between you and your team and the, the way it can optimize your team. [01:14:22] Speaker A: And this, this is a core, this is a very core thing here. And Patrick Loncini says this, but the, the, your competitive edge is your people. It's your people. And we need to remember that competitive edge is never technology. It is your people. I'm at with AI. It's becoming an interesting thing, but I think that still rings true today that your competitive. And if you can help your people come to work with more joy, with more energy, with more trust, with more relationship and connection. I challenge any leader out there to ask themselves if that were true, that they came with more joy, more connection, more relationship, more energy. They brought that to their work. Would I not see this times 10 come back? Like if all of that was the case, I'm going to see better work, I'm going to see more of it. Let's put that in school. A teacher may decide to stay longer and pour more energy into their students. In a mission you may not be, you might have several more years of A good experience with it, with a valuable team member in that mission. And when they leave, I hope because of some of the work that you've put in as a leader and maybe a tool like Team Pulse has helped with, they're going to tell other people about the good experience they had with the mission. Like, I know out there, there's quite a few unfortunate stories, and sometimes I think those people were simply on an island, and this took them off that island and connected them to the people that they report to. And in a really helpful way. I know for lifex, it helps us see the person where they're at and I hope helps them feel valued and cared for. And I know that for me, personally, when I feel valued and cared for by an organization, I'm ready to stand in the way of a bullet. Like, I'm willing to do more for that organization because I know that they care about me for more than just the fact that I have blood pumping and I can do some work. [01:16:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks, Cliff, for taking the time to have this conversation. And as well as talking about Team Pulse, is there anything. As we wrap up our conversation, is there anything you felt like you haven't quite been able to say that if. Yeah. For any leaders listening to this right now who want to steward their people. Well, anything you want to leave them with? Final word. [01:17:05] Speaker A: Yeah. I really appreciate you inviting me here, Asher. I think with leadership, something I have to remind myself often about when it comes to leadership is that leadership is not a platform to speak from. It's a platform to serve and care from. And so often we think of leadership as, ooh, now I have a position in which I can share my ideas and thoughts. And that is not what leadership is about. And one of the hardest things for me to live out. And I would just say this is like, I wrestle with this one all the time, but as a leader, ask for direct feedback and care so deeply for your team that when they need to say something critical to you or critical about you, that they're willing to say it directly to you. Asking for feedback is hard. And just holding that. But if there's a. If there's a character trait that I want to continue to develop as a leader, it's that. That I can ask for and I can hold it well and accept it. Not with a defense, but just hold it well. But, yeah, thank you. It's been really good to be. Sit down and have this conversation. And even though we work together, we don't have a lot of opportunities just to sit and talk and so this has been really fun. [01:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I've enjoyed it. I've got context that I wasn't even aware of necessarily. So it's been a fun conversation to have. Thanks for coming on. [01:18:39] Speaker A: And [01:18:41] Speaker B: if people want to check out Team Pulse, what is the website for [01:18:45] Speaker A: that Team Pulse us TeamPulse us. [01:18:50] Speaker B: I'll drop it. Drop it in the description below as well. You can check out. But yeah, thanks for listening. I'd love to hear any feedback if there are leaders or even people you know, anybody listening to this is a part of a team in some way shape or form. I'd love to hear. What have you learned regarding living dependent, doing business, doing work like Jesus, doing work and living like Jesus? What have you learned in that process or what stood out to you from our conversation that challenged you or impacted you or that you want to double click on? Go ahead and share that below and we'll talk with you guys later. Sam.