Bill Johnson, People Pleasing & the Emotional Health of Leaders

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:10] Speaker B: Hello and welcome back to Unfeigned Christianity, where we are on a journey of becoming people who are theologically anchored and emotionally healthy so that we can love and disciple others. Well, I hope you've enjoyed the new season of Unfeigned Christianity. We've done three interviews with Sonya Whitmer, my cousin Karita Whitmer, my sister, and then last week Brian Dye on making disciples. I look forward to some of the episodes coming up. I'm interviewed, I did interview, I'm going to release it next week with Karen Swallow Prior on her book the Evangelical Imagination. And then Keith Smith, pastor from Ohio, will be talking about a book that he recently published. And I find it particularly interesting because it has to do with growing up in the San Fernando Valley, which I lived nearby the San Fernando Valley for a number of years in Southern California. And then I have an interview with my boss coming up and discussing how do we do business and live like Jesus at the same time? And a number of other interviews I've been privileged to be able to do. Today I'm going to do something a little bit different. And if you're watching this, you've probably seen in the title I'm going to be taking talking about Bill Johnson and everything that's been going on and coming out about Bethel Church in Reading, California. So there's been some tremendous work already done a number of the podcasts. I Mike Winger has kind of been the one recently who kind of dove into this and brought some exposure to some of the false prophets that Bethel has supported and even some of the sexual misconduct and so forth that has gone on with some of these guys. And he did he's been, I think maybe a year and a half now been on or maybe it's more like two years been on a process of targeting cover up culture, particularly within the charismatic movement. And as I understand it, I think he's doing that somewhat because he, he comes from quasi charismatic. He's, he's from Calvary Chapel background. I don't know that he's a part of Calvary Chapel anymore, but also because people came to him and started asking like, would you do videos on this? And so that was kind of the field that he dipped his toes in. Not that the charismatic movement is uniquely evil in this regard. And there's plenty of other things to be brought to light in other denominations and other Christian traditions and so forth. But Mike Winger has been doing it around the charismatic movement. Some other people, Ruslan KD has a YouTube channel. He's been Kind of tracking with Mike Winger. And also I really like some of how Ruslan has unpacked some of the problematic theology within the nar. New Apostolic Reformation stands for. It's an acronym, N A R. NAR stands for New Apostolic Reformation. There's some problems there. And so there's a lot of kind of stuff around Bethel theology and so forth that other. Other. Other people have. Have already tracked. Even some. Bethel came out, and immediately after Mike Winger's first video, they. His name slipped my mind. Chris Valatin came out with a sermon that was pretty classic Darvo. Deny, deny a reverse victim offender. What a lot of predators, perpetrators tend to do when they're first confronted with the problem. Right. And I remember watching that even before anybody responded to it, and just kind of stunned by that being their response to all of this. Well, the following week, they came out with a repentance service, and there were three. Three of the senior leaders got up. And I'm trying to remember is the first one Dan Farley. I guess I should have confirmed that. First Chris Valatin and then Bill Johnson. All three got up and talked. Yeah, Dan Farley or Fairley, they all got up and just confessed the mistakes that they made and the wrongdoing that they did. And all of this was particularly centered around Sean Bowles, because that's kind of the rabbit hole. Mike Winger went down to bring this to light. Now, there's been some other podcasts that have been done, and Mike Winger's doing some of it as well, but that have kind of exposed how there's a lot more that Bethel is accountable for. Not just Sean Bowles. Yes, definitely Sean Bowles, but there are others as well that need to be talked about, such as one of Bethel. Bethel's pastors, Ben Armstrong. And the Wake up and Win podcast has covered that well. Even Faith Reformed, I think, is the name of him. He's a former Bethel School of Ministry student. Some of them have done a good job of just kind of unpacking other things that Bethel stands accountable for. And so I'm not really gonna. I don't intend with this. This is a couple months into it now. There's a lot of coverage around Bethel's kind of the way they covered some things up and then even observing, okay, how is this repentance? Like, are they actually going to correct the mistakes? Just. Just to be quite frank, I tend to give a lot more grace for Chris Valatin because I. I felt in his second sharing time, kind of repenting and acknowledging it, like he was way More broken and actually named some specific things as sins and failures, more so than even Bill Johnson. Now there has been some stuff like they shut down an alumni Facebook group because there was too much conversation happening on there, which feels sketchy. They also said they were going to do a third party investigation, but I think it's kind of an in house investigation. And so stuff like that is I'm just kind of in wait and see mode. It's like I would really hope that Bethel can be broken and realize they have some pretty significant things to change from the inside out just in terms of structure and, and even parts of theology and so forth. So there's plenty of that that I'm kind of in wait and see mode. But there's one aspect in particular, and it came out as Bill Johnson was sharing, that I haven't seen anybody really discussing. And I would like to address that today. And it has to do with the emotional health of leaders. And first of all, just to lay some groundwork, I don't know how many of you are familiar with Bethel. Most of my audience is Anabaptist. I have noticed that there is a significant draw to the new Apostolic Reformation. It may be on the tail end. Actually I noticed it more 10 years ago. 10 to 5 years to 10 years ago. Kind of over time there was a real pull. But in my circles I think there's been somewhat of a disillusionment around the theology of sickness and suffering specifically. So that's another conversation for another time. I want to do a, an episode on that unpacking. How do we make sense of sickness and death here today when we have the power of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. And how do we reconcile that with some of the teaching that comes out of specifically Bill Johnson, who says he, he will not tolerate a theology that allows for sickness like he has stated that over the pulpit and other things like that. But that's another conversation for another time. There's also, I noticed Justin Peters and other cessationists, those who believe that the apostolic gifts ceased at the times of the apostles and do not continue today. I'm not real interested in hearing what they have to say about all of this because they take the low hanging fruit and use this as like, see, this is an evil theology. But they don't seem to be very willing to turn inward and look at the way John MacArthur has also covered up abuse and maybe even participated in certain levels of spiritual abuse and manipulation and covering things up. I would rather see them kind of clean house, look inward. And obviously the same could be said of me. I'm a part of Anabaptist churches, and there's lots of house cleaning that needs to be done in the Anabaptist church as well. It's not as publicized, and so it's a little harder to pinpoint and talk about and so forth. But there's plenty of that that we have to deal with as well. But I am particularly interested in what's going on at Bethel because I have had a number of friends as well as people who have reached out to me via my blog over the last 10 years who have been highly influenced by Bethel. And I have always had a number of concerns with Bethel. And so I'm just kind of taking. This is the first time. I don't know that I've ever. I don't know that I've ever really talked about any one person in particular. I know there was someone I had on the podcast. There's been a couple people that I had on the podcast over the years that people had questions about and so forth. And so I took time to respond to some of those questions. But I've never, to my awareness, really called out anyone, particularly on the podcast, like this, and kind of critiqued them as an individual. And one of the reasons is, I think that's actually kind of a shallow way of engaging stuff. We want to build each other up in the body of Christ. We don't want to tear each other down. And so there's a very fine line between interacting with someone's teaching and evaluating, like, what is this actually true? And just tearing them down. I would love to, even with people that I disagree with and so forth, I would love for there to be space to have open dialogue where we can mutually grow and pursue Jesus together. At the same time, there are times when we do have to kind of call out some. Someone's specific teaching or what someone is doing. And I think for better or worse, there's a number of things that we can learn from and kind of glean from around Bill Johnson, and particularly some things that he said in this repentance time. I don't know if repentance time is appropriate or maybe it's more of just confession. Like, it's just acknowledging the mistakes and the areas they need to grow in. So I'd like to focus in on that. It has to do with the emotional health of leaders. But there's also some comments he's made since this particular service about whether or not endorsing someone like Sean Bowles was worth it. And he says it was worth it for the movement, for the sake of the apostolic mission and purpose. I'm going to touch on that a little bit as well. And then I am going to touch on some of Bill Johnson's and Bethel's and the NAR theology around apostleship because I think, think this does bleed in. I don't think the, the charismatic theology that, that the gifts are for today. I don't think that is inherently leading to cover up and abuse and, and the sort of dynamic that created Sean Bowles and Todd Whites and Ben Armstrong's and so forth. But I do think the theology around apostleship and honor have definitely played a role in it. And when you pair together emotionally unhealthy men and leaders with some of these problematic theologies, it's a very dangerous recipe. And so I just want to explore that and talk about that. I'm not here to be an arbiter between whether or not Bill Johnson is qualified for ministry. I personally would really strug be under Bill Johnson's leadership for these reasons. But there's, there's other things that, like I said, some other theological differences that I've had problems with for the last decade or more. Boy, I can't remember when I first, what is today is 2026. It's probably, it's probably been 12 to 15 years since I first learned about Bill Johnson and heard some of his teaching and so forth. So it's been over a decade, my early adulthood. A lot of this was kind of coming to the surface for those of us in more conservative Anabaptist circles. And so I was starting to process it. So yeah, I would kind of like to dive into that here in this episode and hopefully not take up too much time. But I do think it's, it's an important piece for us to ponder. Not as a critique, obviously I am critiquing Bill Johnson in Bethel. So it is going to be a critique of that. But I'm intending it to be a reflection on ourselves. And even as I go through, I want to play Bill Johnson's portion and kind of walk through that so that you can hear from his own mouth what he said. But I would recommend for context, if you'd like to understand more of the context of everything, go and watch Mike Winger's video. And it's a very long video on Sean Bowles. And then he also did a follow up to this service that I'll be playing some clips from. But. I think that all of us are in need of growing in emotional health. That's why it's one of the core, the three pillars around my work. I will also just say that one of the reasons why I'm focusing my work around those three pillars is these are three areas that I have realized I need a lot of growth in. And so in walking through this, do not want to be so arrogant as to say, like, I've got emotional health down I face, whether that's with my family, whether it's with my work, whether it's engaging people online, whether it's in ministry and serving people through the church and the community. Like, I face challenges every single day that caused me to reflect and be like, wait, why do I really struggle to do this or to say this or why did I say that and do that? Why did I react that way? Why did my breath get short and my heart start pounding? And I get a little worked up at that moment to just continue to be exploring, like, what's going on underneath that? Because part of loving and discipling. Well, I do not believe we can love and disciple well if we are not emotionally healthy. And on one hand, that feels like an impossible pursuit because we're human and we live in a broken world. On the other hand, I think it's something we ought to be pursuing. So pursuing emotional health, that's why I framed this whole podcast, is we are on a journey of becoming a people who are theologically anchored in Jesus and emotionally healthy so that we can love and disciple others. Well, so often the two get kind of pitted against each other. You have folks really focused on theology and kind of the intellect, and then you have folks really focused on emotional health and maybe don't have a very sound theology. And I don't believe they have to be pitted against each other. In fact, I really think good theology will lead to an awareness of a need for emotional health, and good emotional health will be grounded. Like, if. If your pursuit of emotional health ignores the scriptures and the teachings of Jesus, then you're kind of just learning how to cope as a human in this world, not actually learning how to be grounded in the identity your maker gave you. So I see them as intricately married, obviously. Maybe I'm a little biased because that's what I've experienced in my own life and my need for growth and so forth. So all that to say, let's, let's. I just like to dive in and listen to how Bill Johnson. This is the first part. So again, just for context, Mike Winger. The middle of January, Mike Winger had come out with a video on Sean Bowles, exposing Sean Bowles, but largely exposing how Bethel covered up. Because the stuff about Sean Bowles has been known by charismatic leaders since 2019 and yet it was never publicly addressed. And something like Sean Bowles should have been very publicly addressed because he was very public. He had a very public ministry. Bethel platformed him around, around various conferences and his prophetic insights. He would call out specific details about people that, you know, where they live, who's members of their family and all that. Well, it came out that he was data mining it from Facebook and Sean Bowles prophetic ministry happened to start around the same time in 2013 as when Facebook started letting certain information about you be public so that you didn't have to become friends to see where somebody lived or who their family members were who also had Facebook accounts and so forth. So Sean Bowles would be going to a conference, he'd see the roster of people who registered at the conference and then he'd spend time looking them up on Facebook. That's what Mike Winger kind of exposed. And then, and then he also had some sexual assaults, sexual abuse. Like it was a lot of it had to do with walking around naked and self pleasuring in front of co workers when they'd be on ministry trips and so forth. And so that portion, particularly one of the Sean's victims had come and talked to Bill Johnson about that. And within a couple of months after that, Bill Johnson endorsed Sean Bowles for a book that he was coming out to. And he said something along the lines of what makes this book so powerful is knowing the life behind it. He embodies a close walk with Jesus or something along that line. And so obviously just really detrimental to that young man, but ultimately covering up. And so the question is why Bill, why, why did you not confront Sean Bowles? And even I'm not going to play all of this. But it, it became evident that, and I think Bill does get into this a little bit, that, that Bill Johnson was the one holding back. Chris Valatin would have confronted. I don't know if Chris Valatin would have done something more public or not, but Chris Valatin would have wanted to, to be more direct and confrontational and Bill Johnson was kind of holding him back. And so we're going to play through Bill Johnson's comments here and I'll stop it here and there when I want to make some comments. But there's one particular aspect we'll see if you catch it. That I haven't really heard anybody talking about that to me, is something. We ought to be on alert when it comes to leaders, but also when it comes to ourselves and how we engage and relate with other people. So let's get into it here. [00:21:00] Speaker A: Chris very nobly takes all the responsibility when it really comes back to me, you know, Both Chris and Danny were much more willing to pursue bringing correction, not just the initial correction, but actually walking through long term this whole journey. And I was the part of the process that slowed it down, you know, sometimes. [00:21:37] Speaker B: So a couple things just to point out. He is speaking last year. The other two, Dan Farley and Chris Valatin, have already spoken in Bill Johnson mentions Danny. He's referring to Danny Silk. Danny Silk does not speak here. I do believe he's present in the service. But I. I am disappointed that Bill Johnson spoke last. I don't know what all the structure is, but because he was the primary one to promote Sean and endorse Sean, he should have been the primary one taking. So he kind of speaks highly of Chris taking. Taking things for him. But the accountability just in terms of leadership is. Don't look at his opening remarks here as something heroic. It's actually kind of shameful. As leaders, we. We have to be able to stand up and say, hey, I promoted this guy. I'm responsible for correcting it. [00:22:37] Speaker A: Your strongest trait becomes your weakest trait. And one of the things I do. [00:22:42] Speaker B: I'm going to back this up because this actually has a lot to do with what I want to zero in on [00:22:50] Speaker A: this whole journey. And I was the part of the process that slowed it down. You know, sometimes your strongest trait becomes your weakest trait. And one of the things I do well is I believe in people, and they don't deserve it, but it can move into what some have called unsanctified mercy. And that's actually what I did. I became so not impressed with the gift. I don't do gifts over character. But I became so committed to seeing Sean protected and come into a place of health. [00:23:35] Speaker B: So that's some very interesting language there to see Sean protected. What in the world, like he was preying on other people. He was making a ministry of falsely prophesizing, prophesying about other people. He frames this whole thing, and I have witnessed this kind of thing firsthand. Within ministry is where somebody has a tremendous weakness, and somehow it's seen and framed as though it's possibly a strength. And we know that there is truth to your greatest strength also being your greatest weakness. There is Truth to that. But that is so often used as a way of excusing your weakness as opposed to actually naming why that weakness is weak. He talks about it as being. You know, he said he does not do gifts above character. Well, he did something above character here because he knew about Sean Bowles falsely prophesying, and he knew about the way Sean Bowles was sexually assaulting and violating co workers and people younger and under him. And yet he went and endorsed as though Sean Bowles has a character that's equivalent to Jesus. That's putting something like, I don't. I don't know what you're putting above, whether that's the gift. You're putting something way above character. Character framing that I don't do gifts above character frames it as though character really matters to you, but this whole thing is exposing that character doesn't matter to you. Character. Like actually addressing someone's. There's one thing we could have a whole conversation about, whether or not, you know, when somebody's character comes out, I didn't know what this person was like. Right. And you're kind of blindsided by it. But Bill Johnson knew. He knew what Sean's character was. And so he uses the words of protected and healing or restored, something along that line. And there can be no healing or restoration without first naming what's wrong and the problem. And so part of what's going on here for Bill Johnson is he doesn't see the problem, and it doesn't seem like an issue enough. Because I think the moment anybody identifies, like, there is a problem here, you can't go another. Like, even if. Even if you really desire to see people healed and restored, like, maybe. Maybe Bethel is an example, in a sense. Like, I struggled. Some folks talking about this whole issue, I sort of get the sense, like, they want to see Bethel fall and fail. And I wrestle with that. It's like, I want the church. I want to see stories of reform and stories of where people learn through the hard season is just like David, the honest confession, the brokenness of the sin that has happened, and then a new way of doing life and leadership and so forth after the confrontation. And so I want to see that restored. But at the same time, after seeing all of this, obviously, I'm not privy. I have not done the legwork of sitting with testimony is the people who have walked through this and journeyed with it and hearing their stories. I'm just hearing the podcasters and YouTubers who have done that legwork. But it's very obvious that Bethel has covered up. And so then you get to the point of where it's like, at some point you got to call a spade a spade. You got to call balls and strikes. Remnant podcast. I forgot to mention Remnant podcast. They're another one minor prophets. They've done a lot of work on this as well. Both of them are. And Ron Kanter, they're all within the charismatic movement kind of calling this out. And I would still differ with them on some theology around, even apostleship and some of the giftings and so forth. But I'm grateful that they're able to call this out and call a spade a spade. But this is kind of getting into what I want to address with Bill Johnson. Don't let the framing fool you. He is exposing something about himself that is very telling and it's dangerous. [00:28:21] Speaker A: And that I just was foolish. And how it started is I believed, I didn't believe the allegations were true initially. I think probably all of us wondered, man, this can't be true. We love this guy. We've spent time with him, he spent time here. But [00:28:43] Speaker B: I can identify with that, right? Like, I think when, when any of us are close to somebody, even, even if you think of your parents, your child, parent relationship, and you've grown up with a lot of pain from your parents, it's hard for children to get to the place of actually naming what their parent did, especially when. When there was a level of abuse, you want your parents to be good parents. In my experience, working with people like children, and what I mean is like, the child versus usually I'm talking to them when they're adults, but the child, when they reflect back on their life, they want their parents to be good people. And you have to be very careful that you don't just be like, they were abusive to you. You know, you don't want to project that onto them. But when you see, as they're telling their testimony, you see like, boy, there's some real psychological abuse going on here. Or maybe there was more direct physical kind of abuse taking place and they haven't quite named it. You want to explore it with them and, and get them to start thinking about it and pondering it. And, and so I can, I can resonate with the. The notion of, like, you hear something about someone and it's like, surely that's not true. I think of Ravi Zacharias, for instance, where I appreciated his work, a lot of, of what he had written, and I appreciated his way to articulate things. And when all the stuff came out about him. My initial response was like, no, surely that's not true. And I've come to realize that our initial response has to be to lean in and believe until proven otherwise. Because people don't just go making up false accusations out of the blue. And if it's false, the investigation process usually reveals that maybe there's a situation that I'm unaware of where. Where there was a false accusation and somebody was falsely punished. I mean, I know there's. I know there's stuff like that when you. When you trace back to racism and the death penalty and so forth in the. In the 80s and even before then, early before then. But as far as, like, clergy abuse and stuff going on, like, I mean, maybe. Maybe there's some. Because I think there's a story in one of Frank Peretti's books where the pastor is falsely accused of some things. I don't know if that's sort of framed our thought process, but I really think we need to lean in and believe. And what do we lose? Like, what do we have to lose to explore it and chase it down? We have everything to lose if we ignore it. And if that person actually is doing this and we ignore it and just don't do due diligence, that's incredibly dangerous and foolish. And so we need to be willing to lean in and engage it. And our default posture be to believe it and explore it. So that is telling. I can resonate with it, but it is telling. And it's something within us. When we have that rise up where we want to believe that it's not true, we want to assume somebody's creating a false accusation that should be a check to us, like, wait a second, what's going on? [00:32:28] Speaker A: Over a period of time, it became obvious it was true, but I became blind to it because my loyalty to him as a friend, as somebody who had ministered deeply to me, as Chris mentioned to him, and so many people authentically, that we became blind to the fact. I became blind to the fact that there was a real issue that needed to be addressed. I'm completely blind to it. I mean, I see it now. It's embarrassing to see what was right in front of you all the time. And I were surrounded by such an incredible group of leaders and team Phenomenal discernment. On a number of occasions, I've come to Chris. I'll ask him a question. How do you see the situation? I trust your perspective more than mine. And there are just times where you just trust in other people's gift more than your own. But this was an occasion when I didn't do that and should have because I easily could have seen through their eyes, through their heart, through their discernment, something that was really, really obvious. [00:33:34] Speaker B: So just to continue to zero in agitate, see if it stirs up for you guys. This isn't about gifting. Bill Johnson is not manifesting or using any particular gift over trusting Chris Valentin's gifting. And this is maybe the problem with highlighting gifting and totally neglecting emotional health. There's something else going on here that is telling about Bill Johnson. When you have been told of what is happening and you're not taking it seriously enough to be like, if this is true, it's. It's not about, like, you don't have to come on and talk about, like, this being true. Chaeyeon, who's a pastor down in the LA area, who is also caught up in this whole Sean bull stuff. He. He actually commissioned Sean Bowles as an apostle, I believe he talks about how, like the first witness he went and confronted and totally removed Sean Bowles from their conference and everything. That's actually not. That's not the first thing you need to do. You just need to chase down whether this is true. And yes, it does involve asking the person directly, but they might deny that. They might gaslight you. They might frame. If someone is a predator, then they are manipulative and they will do that. They will gaslight you. I just had an encounter with a neighbor. I wasn't confronting my neighbor, but my neighbor and another neighbor are in conflict. And this neighbor came up to me and was asking me what I had seen and everything. And how they portrayed the story of the conflict with the other neighbor was very obvious to me that they're wanting to lead me into a certain way of thinking about this conflict. I don't know the details, but it's very obvious that they have a specific viewpoint they want me to come to, right? So anybody caught in the middle of this kind of thing and you come up to them, they're very likely going to. To not be transparent, honest. Which is maybe why we might take a cue card from the prophet Nathan is that who confronted David and how he went about bringing it to light, like, demonstrate the injustice over here and get David's emotions behind it. And then you bring the finger. You are that man. You are the one that did that. Because you might get a more honest response. But at the same time, it takes a broken person to confess and to bring true repentance. And so this isn't about Bill Johnson somehow having a special gift, and it happens to be a weakness here. He should have trusted Chris Valatin's gift. No, something else was blinding. His discernment, his ability. I want to avoid discernment because that's used in a way in this crowd that I'm not intending to use it. His ability to kind of see clearly and assess objectively. An emotionally healthy person or someone who's at least self aware of the emotions at play would have been able to pinpoint what's more going on. This isn't about a gift that he has. And so I take issue with that kind of framing. It's framing it as a benevolent kind of. I should have, I should have trusted Chris Ballatin about this. He has gifts. And better sure, that's all true. Chris Ballatin has gifts that Bill Johnson doesn't. Other people have gifts that I don't have. But this issue is not a matter of gifting. [00:37:12] Speaker A: This is the nose on your face. And I didn't see it. I missed it. I missed it because you did see it. [00:37:19] Speaker B: You had someone come to you and tell you what was going on so that it should have been chased down at the very least. And I guess I didn't finish my thought. But yes, you, you do talk to Sean, but you also realize he's probably gonna manipulate it to make him look better. So you chase down other witnesses and you find out how prevalent this actually is. [00:37:40] Speaker A: Us, you know, just not wanting to believe something that, that that could be true. And, and it was. [00:37:50] Speaker B: And I get that. That he names. He didn't want to believe. And that's really telling. The implications of the safety of a flock under that kind of care when you don't want to believe in it. I get that. I get the feeling of this can't be true and being devastated and broken. But if you actually think any possibility that this is true, if you realize the detriment, the damage this could have on people under your care, you're gonna chase it down. And there's something that he, he hasn't named, but it is being revealed here that's holding him back. [00:38:37] Speaker A: As a result of my slowing a process down just affected more and more people. More and more injuries took place through the prophetic and then through his own teams where, where people were traumatized over some of the sexual issues. Just horrible, sad, sad, sad stuff. And I spent time with one individual that I know and, and we actually had a real. I felt a really honoring time going both ways. I I. He was calling out for help. He was expressing the pain of his own journey and the trauma that he had faced being on. On that staff. And we had a. A really good time of connection. And I. I was so thankful for it. What followed, however, is I did. I was invited to do an interview on tbn, which I agreed to do, and found out it was to promote Sean in his book. And I went through with it. And so if you can imagine making a heartfelt connection with somebody and he [00:39:53] Speaker B: has a real inability to have any kind of backbone and say, no, no, this is. This is not possible. This has to stop. Right? Like to feel compelled to go through with something like that. Why is that the question? Why? You just had this conversation with this young man and then you just go through with it? And not only that, but he went on TBN and said, what's so powerful about the book is knowing the life behind it. And he demonstrates a close relationship with Jesus, man. If what this young man has experienced with Sean is a close relationship with Jesus, you're painting Jesus as someone you don't want to be close to at [00:40:40] Speaker A: all, lending support for their healing. And then a week, a month, three months, whatever it was, I don't recall now, let's just say two months later, endorsing the very guy that he just brought a report to me on. And it was just a slap in the face to this young man. And it was just such a horrible misjudgment on my part, just absolutely foolish. I followed up. We spent more time together, a couple hours. And to be frank, he helped me in a kind way to see how foolish my decision was and the effect that it had on him. And I know if it affected him that way, then there's countless of others that it also affected. And I am so, so, so, so sorry. Some things are inexcusable. I'm just glad they're not unforgivable. I. Several. [00:41:54] Speaker B: This is kind of an aside, but I always say whenever we're acknowledging our wrongdoing, we need to avoid the temptation to make sure that we have the other person's forgiveness. Forgiveness is a gift. And so to assume that it's unforgivable, that's actually not Bill's thing to make. That's not my thing to make. I'm not the person he hurt. Right? But he needs to truly repent. Starts with confession. I'm grateful for him acknowledging he's sorry. We're going to come back to some. Some of this stuff, but you need to hold that with an open hand, you confess. Confession is saying what you did, right? And what's really vulnerable about that is then you don't know how people will respond. You don't know how someone's going to respond. And people may respond by saying, I find it really hard to forgive, and that needs to be okay with you. Their journey of forgiveness is between them and God. Me, as the person confessing, or in this case, Bill Johnson, has no business assuming or presuming anything about a person's forgiveness in that journey. [00:43:12] Speaker A: Weak parts of my own, the way I function, I. Some things are inexcusable. I'm just glad they're not unforgivable. I. Several weak parts of my own, the way I function, I. I do rally to people who are in trouble. I rally to people that. That, you know, I give favor to people oftentimes far beyond what they deserve. And I don't apologize for that because I think it's a. It's a proper way to do life. [00:44:04] Speaker B: And, and this has to do with the very thing that. I think it is problematic and very dangerous. The fact that he doesn't apologize for it shouts to me, and I'll tell you why. Obviously, I'll let everybody determine for themselves. But again, I have experienced this kind of manipulative framing firsthand. And so there is definitely part of my own story that makes this more significant, perhaps. But I think this reveals a deeply problematic emotional state in a leader. For someone to be a leader. Now, I'm not criticizing the rallying around people, the rallying two people, and wanting to see people whole and healthy. That's good. And that should be for Sean Bowles. It also should have been for the young man that came to him and share. So there's something dividing his loyalty to wholeness, and it's. It's framing. He's. He's framing things as though like he wants to see people whole. And yet the very thing that would help Sean become whole is a finger pointing. Sean, this is evil. This is sin. And I'm publicly exposing it and turning you in because this has to be dealt with for you to be whole. And so it's not a motivation for wholeness and healing that is driving Bill Johnson, even though that's how he's framing it. Because if he really wanted to see Sean Bowles whole, then he would have addressed it head on. And if he really cares about wholeness, he would have had the same amount of passion for the young man that came to him and shared what Sean Bowles was doing. To him. [00:45:55] Speaker A: So I'm committed to that. But what I did wrong was I did it at the expense of the victims. In other words, I showed mercy in one category that seriously affected those who shouldn't have been traumatized any more than they were. [00:46:15] Speaker B: And just for clarity's sake, Jesus doesn't show mercy to people. So this showing mercy, he's framing all of that as something heroic, something good, something to not apologize for. Nowhere in scripture do we see Jesus showing mercy to people who refuse to acknowledge their sin. 100% there's mercy, and we'll walk with somebody in healing and restoration. You confront someone, you name the sin, and David repents and is broken, and he receives mercy. There's still consequence. He still has to live with the consequence of his sin, but he experiences mercy. Jesus encounters various people, the prostitutes, the folks who come to him and are broken because of their sin. Jesus extends mercy to them. But Jesus does not extend mercy to someone who has not first acknowledged their sin and their evil wrongdoing. So this idea that somehow it's heroic to extend mercy to someone who denies what was done, right, this idea, who is like this, this is not the case. He's framing a certain level of character to you, and yet you're being told that's not true. So it doesn't mean. Doesn't mean you have to condemn him as evil. At the very least, it means you have to continue to investigate because something's wrong, right? We face this. Anybody with more than one child faces this frequently, right? A child comes into conflict with each other, and 95% of the time, it's. He says he's. You know, they're both just saying, what's the terminology? When the only eyewitness, the only account are the people that were there. And so I acknowledge to both of them, even though I'm well aware that someone was probably violated here, I acknowledge, like, I don't know who to believe, because I believe both of you are telling the truth, and yet that truth is conflicting, and so it's not synchronizing well. So somebody's not telling me the truth. And so that's between you two to figure out. And then I start exploring, I start asking about what the situation was. And thankfully, with kids, there's usually a detail changing frequently enough that if you kind of chase it down, you can really. Oh, so you. You did that because. Or you did that before he did said this thing or whatever. My point is, there's plenty of life experiences where we encounter, and we know that you can't just take. You can't just take people's words, even when you're kind of locked to just taking their words. And you have to explore and chase it down and do the work and just some. Some common, clarifying questions of just like it just. If you're. If you're wanting to see Sean Bowles restored, it doesn't mean you have to condemn him as evil in order to say, I believe this young man and I want to explore what he's saying. Does that make sense? And you don't have to care for the restoration of someone like Sean Bowles at the expense of the victim. There's something causing you to be wholly centered around Sean Bowles's reputation because again, restoration and healing would have involved actually naming the sin and saying what. What is wrong. So there's a sense of protection. You go on after hearing what Sean Bowles is doing to this young man, and you go on to say that he has an impeccable character. [00:50:06] Speaker A: It's just. It was just. It was just careless. It was careless on my part. It obviously is not intentional. You don't think through that stuff. But the fact that I could be that careless and work to defend somebody who not defend anything that he did that was wrong, just work to see them restored. But in the effort to do that, to do it at the expense of those who had really, really suffered. And there's the trauma from the sexual issues and there's the trauma from missed prophetic words and stuff that has been promoted throughout our movement. And I am so sorry. I actually, I contributed to the trauma. I contributed. I wasn't just there to help bring healing as I thought I was, but I actually contributed to the trauma. That's a horrible realization, you know, to. To realize that. That you're making something worse. And my. Sometimes it's your action, sometimes it's the lack of action. And I have this horrible trait of just not confronting well. And sometimes I'm just afraid of getting it wrong. So I just avoid it altogether. [00:51:42] Speaker B: And this is probably the most honest he's been about it. He called it a horrible trait and that sometimes he's afraid of getting it wrong, so he avoids it altogether. But this is what, the third or fourth time he's framed this and he's touched on it. And it has to do with the real issue that when I listened to Bill Johnson, this is what stood out to me. I'll dive into it more. I'm going to see if I can let it go to the end of his thing. [00:52:11] Speaker A: We've got such an amazing team that I have purpose to. To be much more eager to receive input on these issues instead of just delay, delay, delay, which is what I'm known for. And I just apologize to you for the effect on your lives, your heart, your trust, and just the life of this family, this movement, because of delay and because of avoiding confrontation, avoiding conflict. [00:52:43] Speaker B: Again, he's touching on that. The whole issue of avoidance, and that's what I want to dive into. What caused Bill Johnson to avoid confrontation, to delay. But one more piece that I kind of want to bring to light is there's a lot of talk about this movement, and we have to be as disciples of Jesus. Where do we get in the scriptures that somehow we should build and develop movements? Will movements happen? The movement of the Holy Spirit will happen genuinely and in a way, you could say the church, the New Testament church that Jesus formed after his death and resurrection is a movement. You could call it that. But it's more than a movement. And our loyalty is not to some movement that we're starting. Oh, we want to see this happen. So we start a movement. I think we really need to be careful and reevaluate. If we've thought through that kinds of lens, if we've aspired to be a part of pushing some movement along, I think we ought to take a step back and evaluate, like, what's motivating that, what is driving that. Because what happens is people become loyal to the movement at the cost of loyalty to Jesus and his kingdom. And while we might say, yeah, our movement is to further the kingdom of God, we tend to slap the kingdom of God onto our movement as opposed to making sure that our vocation and our life and mission is in alignment with the kingdom of God. And if it is in alignment with the kingdom of God, then we don't have to protect a movement. We don't have to be loyal to a movement because Jesus and the spirit of God empowers that. It's his work. It's not our own. So just call that semantics and language. But I do believe it reveals kind of an understanding about life and ministry that transcends, by the way, transcends denominations. This is not a charismatic, uniquely charismatic thing. It does transcend denominations. By the way, if I haven't said it already, the emotional concerns, the emotional and health that we'll talk about here with Bill Johnson transcends denominations, transcends the theological viewpoints. [00:55:17] Speaker A: And I. I want to continue to grow in showing appropriate mercy in. In situations but it really comes down to when there's. We're pursuing justice, it's got to be the victim. [00:55:35] Speaker B: Again, if we follow Jesus, then it simplifies it. It doesn't make it easier. But you don't show mercy to someone who has not acknowledged their sin. And when somebody is sitting there saying, I have no sin, John tells us, we are lying and do not walk in truth, walk in the light. So whenever somebody's response, yes, it is possible to be totally fooled by somebody, it's like, I do not know, right? They act like it is. I'm not seeing it. But when there's a testimony here, then you lean into it. You see if there are more. You chase it down, you see if there's any sliver of truth to it. And I would just genuinely have reservation about somebody who acts as though I'm totally innocent. I have no sin. We all have sinned, we all have brokenness. And there's an ability to be like, no, I have not done that. Yes, I have plenty of issues, but I have not done this or whatever. There's a genuineness that will come through again. You still chase it down. You don't rely on your own sense of this person seemed genuine. No, you chase it down, but you don't show mercy. It's not mercy. Something else is going on. It's not mercy. If they haven't recognized their sin yet, [00:57:08] Speaker A: first the priority has to be to serve those who have been traumatized. And you know what? Sometimes it's just really, really painful to be involved with people in trauma. I mean, it's hard because oftentimes they don't need advice. They need somebody to listen. They need somebody just to be there. And so I am repurposing my own heart, my own gift, my own life to give much cleaner attention to the victim as a priority. And then the whole church, and then of course, the victimizer. We want to see healing and restoration everywhere. But the mandate really is to care for the victim. And so please forgive me for anything and everything I have said or done that would put less value on attending to the hurt and broken people. It's just wrong. It's just, [00:58:11] Speaker B: again, I tend to be hesitant when somebody makes just kind of a sweeping for anything and everything. If they have taken ownership of the wrong that they've done, then they will have thought through the specifics of what I'm apologizing for. And to say that, to name it. And others have kind of pointed this out. Minor prophets, remnant radio, wake up and win faith Reframed, they have all continued to bring out how Bethel has more than just Sean Bulls to be repenting. But even here with Sean Bowles, it would have been nice to see him name specifically. And in a way he has maybe. But to just put out a forgive me for anything and everything. I have reservation about that, not because I can't forgive. Somebody asked me on Facebook recently, like, what. What responsibility is it for us to determine whether someone's truly repentant before we forgive them? Because we're called to forgive unconditionally. Right? And first of all, I would pick at that a little bit like, where is the call to forgive unconditionally? Where is that concept we have as you have been forgiven, so forgive. Or this notion of if you do not forgive others, you will not be forgiven. Or the be careful how you judge for the way that you judge others. It will be measured to you, or you will be judged by that, the standard. And so there's very much a sense of, wait a second, am I doing for Bill what I would want done for me? And not just by other people, but what has God given me? And then how do I give that to Bill? And this is part. This might get into some theology of soteriology of salvation, theology of salvation, I wasn't intending to get into here, but I do think there is a sense in which some of the unconditional love of God and just pursuit, as though you're elected to be saved, kind of messes into this a little bit here. Because I would challenge, if I respond to God by saying, oh, Lord, forgive anything and everything I've ever done against you, and I'm so sorry that I did this against you. But then not really actually name and then kind of continue on a life where I continue to miss it. Do you think God, how do you. From the Scriptures, how does it seem God responds to that? I think of Israel, where you have Samuel, who has told the Israelites what they were going to do. He told them, so go get your king like the other nations. But they begged, no, we will serve God. We will serve him. And so again, Samuel restores them as God's people. I'm thinking of the book, book of Judges, and then into Samuel first and second Samuel. But Israel ends up doing exactly what Samuel had prophesied they would do. And the people of Israel still experience the consequences, exactly as Samuel had said they'd experience, even back to Moses, as Moses had said they would experience. They are taken into exile, taken into captivity, and a lot of people don't ever see freedom from that captivity. God brings about a remnant through, but it's still through a faithful people. God preserves his people through a faithful people. And so through the very story of Israel where you do get this picture of an unconditional pursuit and caring for. But there's still the consequence of their sin and their actions. And the way that God fulfills His promise and his covenant to Israel isn't by just all of you are saved, but he preserves in each generation someone who is faithful, who in the face of adversity, even from within God's own people, they are faithful. And ultimately no human is perfect. And one of the things the book of Chronicles, first and Second Chronicles point out is how even some of the godliest people kings in Israel's story had moments of tremendous failure. And how anyone. This is another piece that Chronicles brings out anyone, even the most wicked king, when they repent, God extends grace to them. So faithfulness is not simply perfection, but is true repentance. When you've seen. When you've seen your sin and when you've named, you've said it the same way as God sees it, confession. When you've named your sin and God pours out his grace and power on that and the remnant is carried through that, and then we get to Jesus, who is the perfect sacrifice. So this notion that somehow there is just a covering for all sin, I think actually fails to accurately tell the whole story of Israel. And it plays into this idea of like, how do we assess someone's repentance? Do I forgive just because I'm afraid that I'm not going to be forgiven? Or what if I evaluate this truthfully in what God has done for me? If I am forgiven because I acknowledged my sin, then I can hold someone like Bill Johnson or Sean Bowles and say, hey, forgiveness is there for you, but you have to acknowledge your sin. And that's not me being bitter. That's not me refusing to do for somebody else what that is me doing what has been done for me. But the other thing is that the hesitation that I have has less to do with forgiveness, even though I think there's a valid hesitation there. But it has more to do with if Bill can't name the sin specifically, then does he even know? Does he even see himself and his own healing can't happen until he's seen himself. And so that's more where I'm coming from. The hesitation of just kind of these sweeping forgive me for anything and everything that I've done to Hurt you. Well, I can forgive you, but are you seeing what you've done to hurt? And that's telling of whether or not this is likely to happen again. [01:05:33] Speaker A: My delay has caused so much frustration in family and staff. And please forgive me. I promise to try to learn this one better. I just, I don't do that well. But I'm praying with your forgiveness and grace to be able to attend to these things in a much wiser way. The Lord has gifted us with a brilliant team. And back when all of this started, it was just a few of us trying to make decisions and all of us were under incredible pressure because of all the stuff going on just in our personal lives. And now we have such a. A brighter, broader team to really help to speak into these situations. So I pray that with the wisdom of the whole group. You know, the scripture says we have the mind of Christ. It doesn't say I have. The emphasis is on the corporate, that together we have the mind of Christ. And so that is our pursuit. That is my commitment. Is that together for us to hear from the Lord what to do appropriately in given situations. And I do ask you, the victims of the prophetic, any other sexual tension stuff that could exist in your life, please forgive us as a leadership to drop the ball as we have and to increase the pressure and the conflict in your own souls. And I just ask it. Forgive me. And I do pray that the Lord would truly, truly bring healing to us as a movement, Healing to us as a team, healing to me as an individual. Yeah, Yeah. Oh, please forgive me. [01:07:35] Speaker B: So again, that. That's just the last portion of their time of repentance, as they called it. But here's the piece that this points out. Bill Johnson, does he have a. A value, A value of running to people who need help? Perhaps that that could be true. But Bill Johnson is a people pleaser. Like, that's what this whole. His whole sharing what 13, 14 minutes worth reveals is. He is a people pleaser and people pleasing is not a healthy state. If he really valued wholeness, then he would be going to confront Sean Bowles. Because Sean Bowles as a whole person is not going to be lying about prophecies, is not going to be doing these things to the people who worked for him in ministry and who were staying in the same hotel room as him. If he valued wholeness and healing for the broken and the wounded, then he would have rallied around the guy that came to him. So it's not just that, like I didn't see it right in front of me. It was specifically shown to you. And the other videos that I've talked about and even Chris Valentin sharing some of the process here in this service reveal that Bill Johnson knew. Bill Johnson knew both about the data mining of the prophecies as well as the sexual stuff that was going on. So it's not like somehow he was blind to it. He knew, and he willfully chose to just ignore it. I'm not gonna say anything. I'm gonna go on TBN with Sean Bowles and talk about, you know, how what's so meaningful about the book is knowing the life behind the book as though it's some impeccable character. Bill Johnson is a people pleaser, and that is a. It's an emotionally unhealthy state. And there's a lot of reasons for why. Why we do that. And some of us, like all of us will be tempted to please people at some point. Some of us get so hurt by people that then we just. We don't care about pleasing people. And that's kind of the mirrored image of emotional unhealth is we're just like, can't satisfy anybody. And so it's almost like we shut down any sensitivity to other people. But if we're genuinely being motivated by love and if we're genuinely being motivated by a desire to see people healed and restored, then. And we're going to care about addressing the thing that, like, Sean is not whole when he's doing these things, he is not a whole person. And it's a facade, it's a lie. When you let somebody go and the reality is they're. They're making stuff up or they're preying on people behind scenes. And one of the things that I think it behooves all of us to evaluate is like, well, who am I to judge whether Bill Johnson's emotionally healthy? Or who am I to judge whether, you know, because I've got flaws that I have. Well, certainly. Certainly. But am I of a posture where when somebody points something out to me. Well, first of all, if I'm making stuff up, if I'm lying about data, and if I'm assaulting people sexually or living in some form of sexual immorality like that, that's a big deal. That is a really big deal. And we need to step away from whatever form of ministry we're doing and address the issues that's happening. But even more minor than that, like, do I have the capacity for someone to speak into my life about my patience with people? I'm working with or patience with people close to me. Like, what happens when, when a decision does not go my way, how do I respond? Is there a posture where I'm ready for someone to come in and say, that's not right, Asher, and I receive that and am willing to learn and grow? Or is my posture such that there's no confrontation allowed to happen? Because that's a very dangerous spot for us to be in as human beings. I'm not just saying as leaders, definitely as leaders, but as human beings, we need to have a posture where we're constantly ready. Like, yeah, I can point out here, this seems very evident that Bill Johnson is a people pleaser and he lacks emotional health. But I might walk up this afternoon and engage my family and bump into some areas where I still lack emotional health. So the question isn't like, is Asher perfect before he points out what's going on with Bill Johnson? Rather, the question is, what does Asher do when first of all I bump in, my impatience flares up, maybe my voice starts to rise a little bit, Am I self aware of that? The next level is what happens when somebody else points that out to me. If my wife gives me a look of like, like, do you know how you're coming across right now? Like, do I get defensive and upset at her? Or do I let that be a mirror and be like, you know, or if somebody sits down with me and confronts me about something, like, what is my response? That's what determines whether or not we have value to speak into something like, this isn't whether or not we're perfect because we're not perfect. It's whether or not our posture is such that we want to grow and learn as well. And so from a leadership standpoint, I have witnessed this firsthand. I have experienced it in myself and I'm seeing it here with Bill Johnson. There are things I don't know. I'm not going to try to act like I know what's going on in Bill Johnson's life and his story. But obviously having a movement that is making ripples worldwide is pretty meaningful to him to the point of where. And pleasing people is pretty meaningful to him to the point where he's not able to actually care about wholeness and addressing the issues. In fact, he later, this was a couple weeks later, he talks about how it's worth it, it's worth one bad apple in order to protect the whole of the movement. And I think that is pastorally, I don't know if it's accurate to say it's pastorally irresponsible. It's careless. It is frivolous. It is not worth it to particularly. Like. It's one thing when you're blindsided, like, I didn't know this, but when you knew it and you did nothing and you go on and you promote and you make it look good just for the sake of. I'm not gonna. I'm not even gonna presume. There's a lot of people who talk about, like, how it's for the sake of money and for the sake of fame and all that. I don't know. I just can see. I think it's pretty obvious. Bill Johnson's a people pleaser, and he's willing. He values pleasing people above true character and healing and wholeness. And it's not worth it because you damaged not only the people who were working with Sean and having him sexually assault them in this way, violate them, but you also damage Christians around the world who watched and they thought this was prophecy. Right? And so it's not worth it. It's not worth. We have to value our character. And as people who are looking at this and critiquing it, we need to do, as Paul says, evaluate ourselves first so that we are not disqualified in the process. And are we addressing our own emotional unhealth? If there's sin, are we confessing and addressing sin? That's the question. There's a couple theological pieces that I would like to touch on. One, I feel like Ruslan KD did pretty good addressing prophecy. I think that prophecy gets. So it's used in so many different ways. It's kind of like the word spiritual authority or authority, and it's used in ways that expand far beyond how scripture actually uses it. And so I think, like, one of the things Sean Bowles was held up as a. A great prophet, like, he could tell you who your mom and your. Your siblings were and where you lived. And, you know, what you did on January 23rd in 19. Well, not 19. It was all post the era, Facebook era. But that's actually. That's like fortune telling or like some sort of guru. Like, we don't see prophets in scripture, like. Like doing that sort of thing. The. The role of prophecy is to call God's people to the way of God. And so in the Old Testament, it's calling people back to the Torah, to the way of the Torah. In the New Testament, it's calling people to the way of Jesus. And we see that. So I. I thought Ruslan did a pretty good job There's a couple other podcasters who've done a good job of interacting with, with a theology of prophecy and how that works. We tend to use words of exhortation as though that's prophecy as well. There are like, I can kind of see some arguments for, for how someone might consider that a prophetic word, but I, I do think it's best to title that as a word of exhortation, not a, a prophetic word. Anyways, Ruslan's done well at that. I do want to tap into apostleship though, as though within the new Apostolic Reformation, there's this view that there apostle who's like has a level of spiritual authority above other leaders and gifts within the church. And I think that's part of what is happening. Why some of this cover up happens within the charismatic movement. Other issues and abuses and cover up happen in other groups and there are other things that play into that. But within the charismatic movement there's a view of apostleship and spiritual authority where it's, it's unquestioned. Like there's a specific apostle. And I am not a cessationist. I believe the gifts are for today, but I do not believe that apostleship is that sense of spiritual authority. I don't think we have any place in scripture that would reveal that. As though someone with the gift of apostle is held in a greater level of authority, spiritual authority, than other people below. We could sort of derive an idea that someone who has been a spiritual father or mother has a level of spiritual authority, but that's more authority in the sense of like there's naturally kind of greater level of influence. And not only that, but we see in the New Testament that with that kind of authority comes the responsibility to serve and to care for people. It's not the kind of thing to be unchecked, like it goes my way or not. And so that's one thing that I would point to as I think being pretty clearly playing a role into this, allowing this kind of thing to happen. Another one is Danny Silk is a book about honor, a culture of honor. And the idea of honor, the way it's talked about and taught is very dangerous, extremely dangerous, where you have to simply call out sin and problems within a style of leadership or within somebody's character as somehow being dishonorable. That's a man made view of honor. Like that is not honor terminate. The thing that determines what is honorable is God and the way of God. And so somebody, if they're acting contrary to the way of God, they're being dishonorable. And so the honorable thing to them is to bring that to the light. In the New Testament it says rebuke someone who is leading people astray. I don't have that passage up to rebuke them in the presence of all so that they may come to fear. Right. It's not just this sense of like rebuke and punishment, but rather to restore someone to a place of honor where they're acting like God designed us, they're acting Christlike. That is honorable. Even though in the process we have to expose their sin. And it's going to bring shame to the family and the community. Not because you're exposing it. It brings shame because it exists in the first place. And so the way forward is to first expose it and to address it so that there can be confession and repentance and healing or so that that person can be removed if they're not repentant and they don't turn and be transformed by the renewing of their mind into a new way of being. By the way, when I talk about being restored, I'm talking about being restored to a relationship and walk with Jesus that is honorable and resembles Christlikeness. Someone like Sean Bowles should never be in leadership again. And perhaps maybe not Bill Johnson, I don't know. It's obvious he has some real people pleasing tendencies. And that is not an emotionally healthy place to be. In the same way, just not caring about what people think is not an emotionally healthy place to be. And so if you find yourself a part of a church or ministry and the leadership kind of resembles that that you may want to explore, like emotional health matters. But more importantly, for the purpose of this episode, I'd like us to look inward and what are the tendencies that we have, even to the degree of like, when something big comes out? There is a trend today where like, everybody has to have a word on it and an opinion on it, and a form of people pleasing can then be like, oh, I gotta say something about it, because some people who I really like over here, they might wonder where I stand if I don't say, if I don't condemn this or whatever. And so we are all susceptible to people pleasing, but that's an emotionally unhealthy state to be in and we need to take a look inward. I don't think you can do that just on yourself. I find it very valuable to have someone walk me with that. And so part of the unfeigned Christianity Patreon membership is growing in being theologically anchored and emotionally healthy so that we can love and disciple others well. And I don't claim to be a therapist or even a theologian. Rather it's a mentorship community and a formation community. There are different tiers that you can start at. I'll drop the link below, but I invite you to join this as we together are on a journey of just actively pursuing what it looks like and then even resources provided guides of choosing what is a good therapist to help me work through my story. And so yeah, that's all I have for today. I will close it out with that and I'd love to hear your thoughts. What are, what are other things that tells of emotional health that we ought to be aware of and kind of processing as people as we live and serve and seek to love and disciple? Well, you can share in the comments below or shoot me an email. Until next time. Grace and peace.