Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hi, friends. Welcome back to uny Christianity, where we seek to reconcile our human experiences with God and His words, so that we can love God and others from a pure heart, a good conscience and sincere faith. I'm excited to have a good, uh, friend of mine, Arthur Knisely, who works with Hope Journey Guide. He has started Hope Journey Guide, which is a mentoring program for guys struggling with unwanted sexual behavior. He's also transitioned recently into training others to mentor guys struggling. So I, I'm looking forward to our conversation. I, I believe it's gonna be a good, uh, conversation just for if, if you're struggling and you are wanting help, I think you'll find it helpful. It, it'll also be good for those of you that are in a community that you know people are struggling, but you're not sure like, where to start or what to do.
Speaker 0 00:00:51 This, this conversation will give you some practical tools as well as kind of give you some direction of where you can look for more resources. We talk a lot about just his work with men, what led him into it, why, why people, why people struggle with sexual unwanted sexual behaviors, even in conservative Christian circles where we might not expect it to happen. And then we dive into a question about internet filters, and are they helpful? In what ways are they helpful? Can they become barriers in, in cause especially when you think of children growing up in a home with an internet filter, can it cause them to develop a pattern of deceit? Uh, we get into that. That's for the expanded version. Those that our patron members get access to that conversation. It's about 20, 30 minutes of just discussing how to, how to raise children in the day and age of technology and how to use internet filters so that it is a help and not a part of, uh, a hindering process.
Speaker 0 00:01:53 And so if you, if you would like to access that portion of it, just go to asher whitmer.com/member. And as a member, you get access to all expanded versions of podcast interviews, as well as deep dive essays. You have full access to the archives. Plus, as long as you maintain your membership, you'll have access to all the essays to come. We are currently running, we currently have open enrollment to our course, Finding My Place in God's Story. Now, this, this is a course that is designed to help you better understand the scriptures and discover how God has gifted you to participate in his restoring work. The goal is we want to embody Jesus in our community, right? But sometimes we struggle to engage scripture, and how can we embody Jesus if, if we're not engaging his word and internalizing his word? And so this is a course designed to help you know how to approach scripture, to get some practical tools for studying scripture on your own and, and for internalizing the message of Jesus, so that in that process, we become more like Jesus.
Speaker 0 00:03:02 It also helps you process some life experiences and, and discover how some of the things that have happened in the past have shaped who you are today and what God, the, the avenues of ministry God may be opening up for you here in, in the present and in the future. So if you're interested in the course, just visit, you can go to ashe whitman.com and you'll see links to it. Or you can visit Finding My place in god's story.com and you, and you'll get immediate access to the course. One of the, the first things that we dive into in the course is how do we read scripture? And so there's a free resource we have made available on the website, asher whitman.com. It's called Reference Book Theology. Why we Struggle to Read the Bible and How to Discover Its beauty again, it's just a simple ebook.
Speaker 0 00:03:52 I think it's about roughly 40 pages. It's should be fairly smooth, simple to read, and it addresses three ways not to read the Bible. And then three ways that help us understand the message of scripture better. In light of those three ways, which we shouldn't read the Bible, it's easy to kind of come to the text as though it's a reference book, and we're just looking for answers for certain things. And that's, that's not how it's designed to be engaged with. And so that's completely free resource. I invite you if you're, if you're at a place where, yes, I'm, I'm walking with Jesus, I want a deeper relationship with Jesus, but I do kind of struggle to engage scripture consistently. I'm not always sure, like, how do I know I'm interpreting it right or whatever. Go, go download that. It's completely free. That'll kind of get your feet wet, give you an inside look into some of the things that we dive deeper in, in the finding my place in God's story course.
Speaker 0 00:04:47 Um, again, that's just ashe whit.com. You can access that completely free. Uh, something I thought I'd start just to kinda give just some, uh, added value to these podcasts as well as kind of address like specific issues and, and ways that the, the word of God intersects with our daily lives or human experiences. And, and also kind of show you that the type of thing that being a member and specifically being a part of the finding my place in God's story course gets you access to these, these are the kinds of things we dig deeper into. Um, I just thought I'd take a passage of scripture, or sometime it might be an issue that Christians are facing or needing to deal with, and just kind of unpack it and, and look at it, uh, and hopefully, uh, gain insight, perhaps see it from a new angle.
Speaker 0 00:05:41 Um, but the, the one I thought I'd start with here, there's, there's several different passages I thought I could pull from, but this concept in Corinthians, First Corinthians, some, sometimes we hear Paul talking and we think that he is downplaying wisdom and knowledge. Um, he talks about how when I came to you, I did not come with brilliance or persuasive words. And I don't know about you, but I have sometimes heard this represented as though we should not seek to, to learn how to be eloquent. Um, it's only through the spirit of God. And so the emphasis is more on like kind of developing some almost mystical connection to the spirit of God than even gaining knowledge of the scriptures and even learning the, the elements of persuasion and how to, how to communicate with people at the, at the core. I've, I've sometimes heard this used as a way of downplaying higher education, like, don't, don't get puffed up.
Speaker 0 00:06:44 Don't. Uh, later on in Corinthians, Paul talks about how knowledge puffs up. And, and so that can sometimes all be enmeshed, and it's as, as though like, we're supposed to just, just rely on the spirit. And I'm not sure that, I actually don't think at all that that's what Paul is saying here. Now, just reading, if you're, if you're at the end of first Corinthians and, and into the beginning of, sorry, at the end of first Corinthians one and into the beginning of chapter two, um, I'll just read a few verses, uh, in verse 26 of chapter one, Brothers and sisters consider your calling. Not many were wise from a human perspective, not many powerful, not many of noble birth. So Paul is talking specifically of the Christians from the church at Corinth. It's largely Greek. There are some Jewish Christians mixed in there as well.
Speaker 0 00:07:37 Uh, even even the Greek ones. Some might have, um, Greco Roman background. Some might have more strong simply Greek background. But these are the people Paul is talking about, like you were called from this, Some of you were wise, some of some of you not noble from birth. Instead, God has chosen what is foolish in the world to shame the wise. And God has chosen what is weak in the world to shame the strong. Now, some of this language kind of goes over our heads sometimes, but Paul is writing in the context of a strong honor shame culture. And so he's using language, he's trying to help them understand the way that God works, and he's using honor, shame language. And so the things that would have been rather shameful in the Corinthian culture, God has used that to show shame to the why is Paul's words, um, which is, is something that would've been honorable in the Corinthian culture.
Speaker 0 00:08:39 God has chosen what is weak in the world to shame is strong. God has chosen what is insignificant and despised in the world, what is viewed as nothing to bring to nothing. What is viewed as something so that no one may boast in his presence. It is from him that you are in Christ Jesus who became wisdom from God for us, our righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, in order that as it is written, let no one boast, let the one who boasts boast in the Lord. When I came to you, this beginning, chapter two brothers and sisters announcing the mystery of God to you, I did not come with brilliance of speech or wisdom. I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I came to you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the spirit's power.
Speaker 0 00:09:33 So that your faith might not be based on human wisdom, but on God's power. We do, however, speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age who are coming to nothing. On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages of our glory. None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. So I think sometimes we can come to scripture from our context rather than, rather than coming to scripture aware of our context, but laying that aside and instead immersing ourself in its context. And so we might come to this and see the emphasis on it wasn't persuasive, it wasn't, uh, wisdom. And, and we, we see it as like a belittling wisdom and persuasion as opposed to understanding the context.
Speaker 0 00:10:38 Paul is writing to Paul's writing to a group of people who probably sensed some shame, and he is encouraging them that the the power of God can be manifested in them. Not only that, Paul's emphasis here is on the power of God. It's not on the not using persuasion. The emphasis is on the power of God. It's not on the not having wisdom. The emphasis is on having a wisdom from above a spiritual wisdom, a wisdom from Christ. Paul is not trying to set forth a precedent of not having education, not learning the scriptures while not having knowledge, not having, uh, the ability to articulate things in a, in a good manner. Paul is trying to emphasize that even in those situations, you're relying on the power of God to communicate, and that even if you don't have wisdom of the age, the the power of God can manifest himself in you and display the wisdom of God.
Speaker 0 00:11:46 And so sometimes I think, I think we can, I, I don't know why, but I think sometimes it's because we're, we're coming at it from our context, and we look at it and we end up emphasizing things that the text is not intending to emphasize. Um, you you might look at that and say, Oh, yeah, what's the difference? Well, the difference is the emphasis is not on foolishness. The emphasis is on wisdom from above and the power of God. Does that make sense? I don't know how that lands on you, but we're gonna see that, uh, even in, in like when you go further in First Corinthians and Paul talks about knowledge puffing up. Paul is not talking about general knowledge. Paul's specifically talking about the knowledge that idols are nothing. There's no real existence. And so eating food offered to idols is not anything like, it's, there's no, it's just a placeholder in a sense.
Speaker 0 00:12:43 There's, there's nothing there. There's only one true guy. And Paul is saying that knowledge can puff up and make us insensitive in a way. I'm obviously paraphrasing or using my language, but make us insensitive to brothers who would be more sensitive, who actually think that that is something that is an idol. Um, and that eating food offered to an idol actually is like a way of worshiping. Um, and so, so Paul's emphasis is not on belittling the value of knowledge, of persuasion of education. Paul's emphasis is on the power of God, on wisdom from above, and not relying on the wisdom of this age. Paul himself would've been a fairly eloquent, educated man. Um, he stood and talked with philosophers. He, he would've been contemporary with many Greek philosophers, and he stood and talked with them. That was not, not just anybody could come up and talk with a Greek philosopher.
Speaker 0 00:13:46 You had to have an ability to articulate, an ability to stand in that realm and and be seen as someone worth engaging in a philosophical conversation. And so Paul did come, like, on one hand, we might think there's cognitive dissonance. It's like, Hey, wait, like back in Acts, we read about you standing on Mars Hill and talking with philosophers and, and being very eloquent in having persuasive speech and people, it says people were persuaded and followed up with more questions. What are you saying? Aren't you contradicting yourself? No, Paul's not contradicting himself. Paul is explaining how when he came it, what what was meaningful and what made impact was the power of God speaking through him, using the, the persuasion, using the, the knowledge of the scriptures and the power of God was speaking through him in that way. I'd love to hear your feedback.
Speaker 0 00:14:48 Maybe you have some thoughts on this passage. Maybe, maybe you have thoughts on this thing. Would you like to see more of it? Uh, I, yeah, feel free to reach out. Either message me, leave a comment rating. I'd love to hear how this lands on you and what some of your thoughts are. And again, I invite you to download reference book theology, why we struggle to read the Bible, and how to discover its beauty again, as for
[email protected]. Now, without further ado, I'd love to get going on my conversation with Arthur Knisely and Hope journey guide.
Speaker 1 00:15:23 Right? Well, it's exciting to have Arthur Knisely on the podcast today. Uh, welcome to Unpayed Christianity, Arthur,
Speaker 2 00:15:31 I'm glad to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:15:34 We, uh, we have a, Yeah, kind of a unique story, I guess. We are, um, Arthur is my wife's uncle, and so we know each other that way through family. And then, um, your son Kevin, was very instrumental in me, actually. Well, we're good friends, but in me actually publishing my book live free, I don't think it would've happened without his interesting, his, uh, continual checking in, How's it going? And, and just even getting feedback on things. Um, and then more recently we've, we've been doing work. Uh, I I've been doing some copywriting work for you as, as you redo your website and so forth in that you have, what, since 20 20, 20 19, you have started a mentoring program for, for guys struggling with sexual, unwanted sexual behavior. That's
Speaker 2 00:16:37 Right.
Speaker 1 00:16:37 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's kind of an interesting journey where we're now working together a little more closely and, um, than enjoying that process. Why don't you, how, how would you, for someone who doesn't know you, who's not familiar with you, what would you like them to know about you before we dive into the conversation about your work?
Speaker 2 00:17:00 Well, I think having lived in, uh, in El Salvador for 30 years, um, working with first generation Christians, I I always ask the question, How can I make these bible truths practical? How can I, how can I teach essential truth, uh, and make it make sense to them? And so I, I feel like those 30 years of, of trying to communicate truth in a simple way is helping me to, to now, as I listen to a lot of people and learn from a lot of people and trying to distill what's, what's the most important. And, and I love what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 00:17:45 Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Yeah. Sorry, I, I totally didn't even mention, but you, you guys were in El Salvador for 30 years doing mission work, and Right. That, that's been a huge, it's obviously shaped your ministry and, and who you guys are.
Speaker 2 00:18:03 And, and I'll just jump into this part of the story that we, we were sure that we were going to stay in El Sal, or we, we loved El Sal. We loved the people that God had called us to. It felt like it was a good fit for us. And I just, I was sure that that's where we were going to going to retire. But then, uh, I say, God took us <laugh> kicking and screaming back to Kansas, and, uh, and it felt like the, this was the end of the end of the world. This, this, uh, I felt like God was silent. Like he didn't care. And, uh, so it was, uh, it was a hard time. Now we look back and we just see so many things that God did that make sense, and how he strategically set me up to do what I'm doing. And I just, I just feel this sense of awe a lot, that God, God went out of his way to make this happen, and I'm
Speaker 1 00:19:01 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:01 What I'm doing.
Speaker 1 00:19:03 Wow. Yeah. That's good. You, um, that's a, that's a whole conversation we could unpack in and of itself, just walking through those times of, of desert, I guess you could say, where it feels like God is silent. Um, kind of through that event, uh, after you guys came back to the States, when was that? 2016? 2017.
Speaker 2 00:19:30 2016 is when we came back, Yeah. To Kansas mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 00:19:34 And, and through that is how you got started with Hope, Hope Journey Guide, Correct.
Speaker 2 00:19:41 Um, yeah, that's true. Yeah. I, I, after the, the medical crisis was over, um, and it had lasted long enough that I just had no desire to go back to Salva. I just felt like my life was, was, was in ruins. And so I started working for my brothers and, um, a driving truck. And I remember one th it was, I'll never forget the date. It was June 30th, 2017 when I, when I felt like, um, my life was starting to come together and, and I guess Kansas is going to be where I'm going to be from now on. And, and so I just out of the blue said, So, God, what am I supposed to do now? Because it felt like, like, uh, this doesn't make sense and
Speaker 3 00:20:31 Testing, testing, testing,
Speaker 2 00:20:33 But, but I am resigning to whatever happens. And so I just felt like God in an almost audible voice told me, um, Arthur, I want you to learn how to help people who are trapped in addictions. Hmm. Wow. It, it wasn't, uh, sexual addiction, but I immediately knew that that meant conservative Anabaptist men trapped in sexual addiction. And so with my, my truck driving job, I started listening to audio five, six, I don't know how many hours a day, just listening to audio, learning from the best, um, Christian people. And, um, and, and after you hear, hear from dozens and dozens of different men, that there's, there's repeating themes. And, uh, and so I, I don't make any claims that, that what I am learning and and what I'm teaching is, is original with me. It's more the idea of, um, Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:38 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:21:39 I remember thinking of sexual addiction as a tsunami, and I thought that was, that was my idea. And then I read, reread a book that I had read before, and I said, Oh, they talked about a tsunami. And so, uh, I, I'm just very cautious about, about saying, this is my idea, but I, but I do have this, this, I'm a visual learner and I am eager to visual images and illustrations help me. And so when I'm, when I'm mentoring men, we look at, at illustrations that I put together that, that make sense to them, and I can quickly see which ones make sense and which ones don't connect with people. And so,
Speaker 1 00:22:22 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:22:23 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:22:24 Yeah, that's something as I was re uh, redoing your website and the email series that you have, that's something that jumped out to me is you've drawn from a, a plethora of resources, and I think that's one of your strengths. Personally, I've not, I've not personally experienced your mentoring and, and seen how that process works, but it can be easy for people to lean into what helped them best. And I think something you, you do well at, from what I can tell, is being able to find the, the approach that is best fit for the person. You're men, you're mentoring at the time. Have you found that to be true? Like, or, or do you kinda have it, maybe, maybe you have a more set approach than what I see.
Speaker 2 00:23:18 I, I have, I have the men that, that I work with, I have them take, go through a specific teaching program that I'm, that I'm, uh, borrowing from someone else. And I used to try to, to match that, to be talking about the same thing that they were, the videos that they were listening to.
Speaker 1 00:23:39 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:40 But as I, as I learn and as I, as we face what the really what's really happening, uh, we talk about what whatever's happening right now. And, uh, and I feel personally feel like God has brought me a bunch of men who are, have unique situations. And, uh, I feel like I'm a tenacious, stubborn person, and I don't give up on people. And so we, we, uh, if something doesn't seem to work, we, we try something else. And, uh, I just, I just have this, this exciting feeling that God is really cares about these men and that I'm, um, um, that we're, we're, we're trying things to, to help them get on top of the things they hate, because yeah, all the men that I work with hate the, the sexual addiction. They, they hate what they do. They, they don't want to do this. They're way past the, the thrills of, of, um, the easy sexual satisfaction that they're way past, that they've seen how it's ruining their lives, and they wanna stop, but they can't. And so, um, my job is to walk with them to give them hope, um, during the time between the hard work of starting and beginning to see the excitement and the field excitement of the tidy is beginning to turn. So, yeah, that's what I like.
Speaker 1 00:25:21 Yeah. What you, you mentioned how when you heard that near audible voice about helping men with addiction, it, it didn't necessarily include sexual addiction, but you felt right away that that's what that was.
Speaker 2 00:25:37 That's
Speaker 1 00:25:38 Right. Referring to what, what, what gave you that feeling or what, what led you to have that addiction on the forefront just Hmm. <affirmative>, um, your own awareness of the struggle in, in the church, or, Yeah. What,
Speaker 2 00:25:55 That's a good question. I, I think one of the reasons that I said El Salvador set me up to do this is because, um, my wife and I were in a similar situation in El Salvador where we had two different people, one in North American and one in Salvador, and talked to my wife and say, You and Arthur ought to get involved in a, in a ministry, a teaching minister helping people. And so we set up, sat up and took, took notice. And I, I was dumbfounded when, when within, within, certainly within weeks of that, when we were saying, Okay, God, we're trying to listen. Uh, God led us to, it was right around the time that a man by the name of Eli GL was kidnapped. And my wife, uh, went out and was with these four hurting girls who had been abused, and she saw the trauma, and she was just horrified at that.
Speaker 2 00:26:59 And, uh, we, it was pretty clear to us that I should, I should do a, a, a teaching on, uh, sexual abuse and how that hurts people and sexual abuse in, in, in, uh, in the church. So I spent probably, I don't know, two years, I don't know how long it was, but I spent just in my free time just learning from the best people about the, the, the damage of sexual abuse. And, uh, and so for a couple of years as I had opportunity in different churches, both and a Baptist, and otherwise, I did an eight hour seminar on, uh, on sexual abuse and the damage of sexual abuse. And then, and then that door kind of closed, and I always wondered what was that about? But looking back, I can see that, that I, I did the hard thing of talking about a subject that no one else talks about doing it, not because someone asked me to, but because I saw a need. And, uh, and just the, when I felt that God called me in 2017, I had all that to look back to. And I said, The hard work of staying focused and not getting sidetracked, uh, of being able to talk about sexual themes in a discreet way, um, and caring deeply for people who've been hurt. So I feel like that set me up for this. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:28:37 So
Speaker 2 00:28:38 That probably is partly why I just immediately knew that's what, what I was supposed to do.
Speaker 1 00:28:44 Yeah. Yeah. So almost more the, see seeing the impact of sexual abuse and wanting to kinda get, I guess, ahead of that tide of, of men helping men struggling with their sexuality, would you say kind of that?
Speaker 2 00:29:06 Yeah. And there's something else I wanna say is that, is that our church was a, a first generation church. And, and I worked with a lot of young men. And it, it didn't take so long to see that the difference between a man who, who is, uh, excited about life and going places, has dreams and is yeah, is, is excited about life. And, and I thought to myself, I bet he's having victory in this area of his life. And then you, then you see a man who is, uh, struggling, He's doesn't have goals, he's just, uh, kind of, um, kind of living life, but not really. He doesn't know what he wants to do. He doesn't have goals. He, he's just, just kind of bumbling along. And I thought to myself, Aha, I bet this man is someone who, who is struggling with sexual addiction.
Speaker 2 00:30:11 And then I find out that's interesting that I'm, that I'm, I'm pretty right, because sexual addiction robs you of your goals. You, you, you're just thinking about what's, you're looking for the easiest way out, and you're thinking about right now, and you don't think about future. You don't think about, uh, uh, where I want to go, what I want to do. You don't do hard things. You just take the easy way out. And so that's something else that I saw. And already in El Salvador, I said, Sexual addiction really does mess with you, and it really does, um, it makes men be a, a shadow of who they could have been.
Speaker 1 00:30:55 Yeah. Yeah. Would you say that is, is, um, the struggle to, like, is there sexual addiction caused by a lack of vision and purpose and goals, or is just a lack of vision and purpose caused by the sexual struggle? Hmm. Like in your experience, what, what have you noticed about that? Or is it kind of just intertwined to,
Speaker 2 00:31:26 It's probably intertwined, but, but I've, I've been working with more than 40 conservative Anabaptist men from like 60 years old to, um, to, in their twenties, and maybe about half of them are married. Uh, my experience, and I've been watching this long enough that I'm pretty confident that the men that I, that I work with, and remember, these are men who come to me and are paying me to help them. So that's not, that isn't across the board and a Baptist, but the people that come to me and ask me to help them are people who, um, very consistently are using, are using, they're, they are, uh, these unwanted sexual behaviors. And by that I'm talking about lustful thoughts, masturbation, pornography, acting out with people. I, I use the men I work with. We call it usb, uh, just because it, uh, but it's unwanted sexual behaviors.
Speaker 2 00:32:28 And I wanna be upfront that I consider that to be sin. It's not just a problem. It is something that, that stands between them and the kind of person they want to be. But consistently, I am discovering that men who struggle with, with unwanted sexual behavior have learned that this is a sinful way to cope with things that are overwhelming. Um, as, as adolescents, probably they learned that this good feeling helps them to escape. And so we, I, I give the guys tools to stop acting out. And, and as we make progress in that area of life, and to where, instead of it being couple times a week to being, uh, a couple times a month, and then better than that, as we start to make progress with that, all of a sudden we don't have this, this, um, unwanted sexual behavior that, that, uh, covers or hides what the real problem is.
Speaker 2 00:33:38 When that gets taken away, all of a sudden, often within two months, I'm working with, we're not talking that much about sexual, uh, struggle and what to do. We're talking about the stuff underneath that they have, uh, uh, been hiding. And it's, so, it's my joy to be able to tell these guys, I don't think your problem is that you're a sexual, that you're a sexualized person. That's, that's your biggest problem. Your biggest problem is that you haven't learned to go to God with, with the, with the big stuff that's, that's under the surface. And so you suddenly find yourself overwhelmed. You're, you've crossed your threshold, and all of a sudden you're doing the things that you hate. But the problem is not that you, that you can't stop acting out
Speaker 1 00:34:30 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:34:30 <affirmative>, it's that you haven't learned to take those things to God and, and have him minister to you. And so, uh, that's one of the goals that I have for people. I tell them, You've got to learn to take these things to God and learn to have God be your, I say unapologetically. If Jesus is my best friend, I can face and do hard things. And so these guys learn to know God in a different way than they ever have. I get to see that, and I love it.
Speaker 1 00:35:04 Yeah. Yeah. That's exciting. So you said you, you mentioned you work, you've worked with 40 different men, and largely, are they pretty much all concerned from the conservative Anabaptist community?
Speaker 2 00:35:19 I would say so. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Yeah. I, um, I had a little bit of exposure outside the Anabaptists, and I'm not saying I wouldn't work with somebody, but I think, I think, um, yeah, that's just mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:35:36 <affirmative>, that's your, your community, people you have connected with mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. What, what is the feedback then, like, obviously, I mean, it sounds, it sounds like it's been positive for those men. Um, I know you've spoken at Reach at Face Builders and, and other events. What, what are you hearing as far as, Yeah, just broad, broadly, like from other churches, is this received, is this like a resource people are hungry for? And then more specifically for the people you've helped, um, what has their experience been like? What is their feedback? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> been?
Speaker 2 00:36:18 Yeah. I just looked before, before, uh, last night before this session to just looked at a little bit of statistics to see, Cause I don't keep track, and it's, and it's fluid, and it's, um, everybody is individual. And so you can't put 'em into boxes and say, This person graduated. But, uh, there's a handful of people who started working with me, and, um, this wasn't a good fit, or they didn't wanna do the hard work. But, but out of those 44 people, um, eight have graduated. And by graduate, I mean, um, there were at a good place. And both they, and, and I knew that, that they had the skills to keep winning. That doesn't mean that, that, I know that they might not mess up, but they know how to get up again, and they know how to process what's going on. And so, um, I'm just excited about that.
Speaker 2 00:37:22 Last night someone called me, this is just an example, last night, someone called me and said, I wanna, I wanna talk about this. And so I said, um, I'm, make an appointment and we'll talk. And so we're gonna talk today. And, um, these are people who are desperate because trying to get well by themselves isn't working. And, uh, so I just, I just love what I'm doing because I get to see these men change. And so, um, I'm a little bit sad because some people are saying, um, go talk to Arthur to kind of get, get local people off their back. I'm a little bit sad about that, but, um, I know that men who love God, who hate what they're doing, I know they can change. And, uh, um, right now there's 23 people, men who are actively in my program. Some of them are, have really slowed down and are meeting with me once a once a month instead of once a week like we normally do. And, uh, and I, uh, the vast majority are moving forward and are making progress. And so, yeah, if somebody comes to me and I sense that they're, they're willing to do hard work, I think I can help them.
Speaker 1 00:38:52 So yeah, that's, that's kind of the, uh, what do you call it, Gate gatekeepers, not the word, the right word, but, um, it's kind of the filter, I guess is with, with it being a paid thing. Well, yeah, let me back up. Like, first of all, any, any kind of addiction, but especially sexual addiction or sexual struggles, if someone's trying to get you to get help, it's not gonna work. That's right. But, but if you are at a place of I need help, like, then it's more beneficial. And, um, even just having the, the paid, like this is a paid experience. Like I, I could, I could, uh, essentially hire you, I guess, to, or, or join your, your mentoring program and that piece of investment kind of probably weeds out people who are just not really in in it. Would you say that, or, Yes. Oh, absolutely. The people you get are serious about getting right, getting help.
Speaker 2 00:40:02 Um, I, I tell people this, this isn't quite answering your question, but, but it was really, this was one of the biggest hurdles that I had to, to, to ask people to pay me for the help that I give them. Because I had lived in El Salvador for 30 years, and the mission board had taken care of my living expenses so I could help people for free. Um, but I finally got to the place where I said, If, if I would do, if I would help you for free, I'd have to have a full-time job. And so I wouldn't be able to help you anyway. Um, and so I unap, I unapologetically ask for people to pay me. Um, I have a plan in place for helping people who say, I'm desperate, I want help, but because of my lifestyle or whatever, I, I don't have money. I, I wanna help those kinds of people. And I have some ideas about how we can do that, but, uh, them paying me helps both of us to, um, helps them to, to work hard
Speaker 1 00:41:13 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:41:13 <affirmative>, because I don't wanna pay Arthur forever. And it, um, um, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:41:22 Allows you to focus on that.
Speaker 2 00:41:24 Yeah, this is what I, what I do. Uh, and it was, um, so from, from 2019, I started out with one person who called, who emailed me and said, Arthur, can you help me? I think he knew something about what I was doing. And so that was 2019, and now, uh, three years later, I maxed out. And, and, and within two years, I, I quit my day, my day job. I went from four days to three days to two days to stopping altogether. And so, um, I wanted to do this because I, I knew that if I, if I do things for free or subsidized, I'd have to have a, um, a non-profit board. And, uh, I knew it would be complicated, but, but I think what I've, what I've done is I'm proving that Anabaptists are willing to pay someone to help them if they think, think they'll get help. And, uh, and I think this model makes so that other people can do what I'm doing, and that's what I'm praying for.
Speaker 1 00:42:39 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You, um, I was gonna bring this up more at the end, but you have recently switched to not just mentoring people who are struggling, but you have, uh, an increasing vision for helping train others to be able to do what you've been doing,
Speaker 2 00:42:59 Right? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:43:00 <affirmative>. Yeah. Um, I got a few different places I, I'd like to take our conversations. We've kind of been talking, uh, somewhat about the nuts and bolts of, of your work and so forth. But I'm curious may maybe just to kind of step back a little bit, like obviously, um, I, I don't think it's any secret that our, our culture is very sexualized, is very frivolous sexually. And, um, obviously finding ways of making abnormal things normal. We, we maybe, um, also understand that there are certain church cultures, church denominations that, that follow that pattern as well. But, uh, something that you talk about and you have found is, and, and I would, in my experience, I don't mentor people in this area, but, um, talking with different people about this subject, I would say it's true that whatever stats that we know of, say from Barna group or something that is on the larger evangelical church maps fairly similarly onto even more conservative churches, conservative an abouts, churches, as we're talking about specifically here. Why do you think that is? Or like, what, what is, what has caused the, the struggle? Is it just kind of, uh, kind of, um, what, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, it just is gonna happen when you're in the middle of a culture that is very sexualized? Or are there other pieces that you noticed? Are we aware? Like, would you say everyone is aware of the need? Um, or would you say that's even some sometimes missing as well? I'm asking, I'm throwing several questions at you. You can,
Speaker 2 00:45:11 And, and so you, you need to pull me back and see, Arthur, you didn't answer this question, but, but the first question of, um, are we aware? I don't think so. I don't think so. Um, I think there's a pervasive hope that because we have a culture of, um, pushing away radio and TV or, or something like that, that, that, surely we can't, this can't be a problem for us. But there's so many factors that have conspired together to make, so that exposure, easy exposure, uh, private exposure, just make, so that, uh, unwanted sexual behavior is all over the place. There probably are, are men who were doing pretty good, and then the smartphone caught them, and all of a sudden they're doing what they, what they hate.
Speaker 2 00:46:16 But, but my plea is that we don't just assume that if we, uh, block technology, at least on our, our church, uh, brotherhood agreements, that we don't assume that, that we're fine then. Because, because that's not, that's not what, what, that's not true. And so, uh, I, I personally shy away from, from, uh, trying to say talk about percentages because I don't know. Yeah. But, but the, the statistics that I do know about make me think that, uh, in every conservative anti Baptist church, um, at least a third of the adult men, and, and let's just mention that, that women, uh, also struggle in this area, and that there's the additional layer of shame that, uh, I'm a woman and we're not supposed to struggle with this. And yet I am, and I must be weird in all of that. I just want to say this is a, this is a human problem.
Speaker 2 00:47:31 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think there's a lot of men who struggle, and if you do the math, um, in my constituency alone, we need dozens of people doing what I'm doing full-time just to, to help the people that are struggling, but having to hide. And I think that we won't really know how many people there are that are struggling until it's safe to, to get help. And that's my plea. I I just care very deeply about the people who are trapped and, and, and thinking, I don't know what to do. I hope I can outlive this. I hope that, that I'll be able to get to the end of my life and nobody will need to find out. That's how shameful it's,
Speaker 1 00:48:20 Yeah. Yeah. And just, just as a bit of a plug for yourself, um, you ha your series, your email series ha does a good job of, of if, if people are wanting to know how to create a safe space, or even what does a safe space look like? You have a couple emails in there that, that reference, uh, some practical pieces to that. Um, and I'm, I'm gonna plug you shamelessly. I don't get paid for this other than that. You are, you have hired me to do some copywriting. So there, Yeah. There is like a roundabout thing, but, um, yeah. I, I think anybody, um, I'll just tell my audience Yeah. Go. If, if you're struggling or if you wanna help someone struggling, um, Arthur has has some good resources available on the website, You can join his newsletter for free and, and receive some of that, some of those tools that way as well.
Speaker 1 00:49:24 Um, the, yeah. The, the shame piece is, well, you were, you were talking too about women. Um, I have, I have been surprised by how many women have read my book, <laugh>. I did not mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I did not write my book for women. Yeah. I wrote it specifically for men, but there have been women who've read it. I've also had some, some counselors reach out and, and reiterate the point that you just said that, that this is a, this is a problem for women as well, and, and that it's almost more shameful Yeah. For them. Um, but that's even a piece for, I like the term unwanted sexual behavior. Am I correct you you borrow that from Jay Stringer? Yeah. His book. Unwanted. That's, it's a really good term. Um, because it, we're not always dealing with addiction by definition. Um, but there's, there it is just unwanted behavior that we don't want.
Speaker 1 00:50:30 And, and it, there's, there's a lot of shame involved in that. How would, how would you get, like, what would be, and this is a question I don't think I've prepped you with, it's just something I'm thinking about. If, if someone's in a community and they know that there's some sexual addiction, some sexual struggles going on, but people, the people struggling aren't really talking about it, whether it's a small group setting, whether it's one on one, whether it's in a sermon over the pulpit, like what would be some advice that you would give for, how do you communicate in a way that tears back the layers of shame to get people to, to open up about their struggles?
Speaker 2 00:51:17 That's good. Um, one of the five things that I, that I go over before someone like, uh, five things I want to see before you graduate, Uh, one of those is helping other people get free. And, uh, what I challenge them to do is to just drop hints to dangle bait, uh, like, uh, it could be a small group or whatever. Just, just you're talking after church and, and you say, I'm so grateful that I'm not struggling with porn like I used to. I am so glad to be free. And that I tell them, expect, uh, silence. And then people will, uh, talk about the weather, and then the conversation will go on again. And you feel like you have just made the most awful blunder possible, but then people will talk to you afterwards and say, Tell me some more. I'm struggling too. And so I, I think that it's really important for, for people to talk about their story.
Speaker 2 00:52:26 And if I may, I'll just diverge a little bit and talk about, uh, go for it. Uh, men my age this month, I'm going to be be 65. And men my age, who didn't go through technology was not where it is now. We tend to, to kind of be harsh and, uh, uh, be hard on young people who are struggling. And, um, I use this example, I say it's one thing to be bit by a dog at age five with no prior exposure to dogs. It's very different to be bit by a dog at age 20, having had lots of good experiences with dogs. And, uh, and I use that to show that that early, early exposure really is powerful.
Speaker 2 00:53:19 Um, but the men that I work with, I challenge them. The men i, I mentor, and maybe you might might wanna talk about that later, but the men that I mentor, I have them identify addiction equivalence. Um, I want them to be able to say, Praise the Lord. My issue is not, is not unwanted sexual behavior, but I know what it's like to, uh, eat to de-stress. I know what it's like to work. Uh, I know what it's like to, uh, to avoid hard situations and, uh, and go to Amazon and buy something. What, when we men are able to identify that I have the same tendencies to be, to act out of addiction, um, and when we're open and honest about that, then it, um, it levels the playing field. My problem with, with eating too much is, is the same, the same kind of problem.
Speaker 2 00:54:37 It doesn't have, the overeating does not have the same moral, um, consequences, but it's the same way. It's the same thing. I, I'm, I'm doing this to escape from hard things. And, um, and when, when men recognize that, and when men are compassionate and willing to face their own junk and, and, uh, and to talk, one of the things that I require in the, the men that I'm training is that they each tell their own story to the, to the rest of the group. And, uh, it suddenly we realize how, how hard it is to do this <laugh>. Yeah. And so, uh, we have compassion for people. And, uh, and I like to say to the men that I'm training, I say, If, if you can share your story of where you've been in a discreet, but but clear way that opens the door for other people to say, Oh, I guess it's safe for me to do this too, and for them to get help. And so, uh, I I just, my plea is that men my age would realize that there's a white open door to, to ministry. And that instead of retiring and, and doing shuffle board in Pine Craft, uh, Sarasota, I want to recruit men who, who connect well with, with people, uh, to consider doing this in their last decade of usefulness. Hmm.
Speaker 1 00:56:23 <affirmative>. Yeah. So, so essentially what I hear you saying is that we all have areas of ways of unhealthy ways of coping,
Speaker 2 00:56:35 Unhealthy ways of coping. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:56:37 And so use that as a bridge to connect with someone's, someone struggling with sexual ways of coping. Right.
Speaker 2 00:56:46 Because because the same thing is true. I I can, I can, I can shame someone and say, Why don't you get on top of your, of your, your, uh, unwanted sexual behavior. But I'm hoping that sharing that will help them to say, Why is it that I have thought about my eating problem for all these, these months and years? And yet all of a sudden when I am, uh, not thinking about, all of a sudden I'm doing the very things that I, that I have decided I'm not gonna do anymore. I, I think that helps us to, to be more humble and compassionate.
Speaker 1 00:57:23 Hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. I think, I think that's a huge piece is humility and compassion. Cause sex, sex addiction or sex, just any kind of sexual struggle is very vivid. Um, it, in the person dealing with it, there's hormones going on that are a mixture of pleasure and guilt and confusion. Um, and then obviously if you're, if you're having an affair or abusing someone, like that's, that's visual and, and is, I mean, it might be in secret, but usually comes to light pretty quick. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, whereas a subtle, Yeah. Eating habit or, um, entertainment addiction or, you know, some kind of, that's not as vivid, but it's important for anybody. But especially someone struggling with sexual addiction is important for them to be dealt with carefully and with compassion, you know, <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:58:30 And, and if I understand that I'm doing this because of trying to cope with something hard, that's the lower level, lower level of the more basic level of, of, of sin that I, I'm not going to going to God with, with the confusion that I feel and, and because I'm not even aware of what's going on periodically, I will act out. And yeah. So I, I'm just so excited about what God is teaching me about, about these dynamics and how to help people, uh, start to make progress it when they, for decades have not been able to make progress.
Speaker 1 00:59:19 Yeah. Yeah. You have, I, I have a, a couple more questions I'd like to discuss with you, and then, um, then there's something I would like to ask you further about for my patron members, if you're cool with that. Um, but, uh, one of the first things I, I was gonna discuss with you here, um, and you've alluded to this a couple times already in our conversation, but you, you kind of, as I understand your journey into helping men with sexual struggles, it's been more like you see this hole in the boat and you wanna help stop it, as opposed to, like, for, for me, for instance, writing live free came out of, it was my experience. Like I had this struggle and then I found freedom, and I wanna help others in that way. What, what advantages do you see of, and, and the reason I'm asking this is, I'm guessing there are people in a community where they see people struggling, it's not their story, and they feel like they don't know what to do, and like they're, they're not qualified. Um, and so I'm, I see you, you're someone who, it wasn't your story, but you're, you're fully engaging that, that problem, that the issue that needs, needs help with. What advantages might someone like that bring into mentoring? Um, and then what, what disadvantages might there be with that?
Speaker 2 01:01:02 Good questions. I, the first thing I wanna say is that I'm proving that you don't have to have a sexual addiction story to be able to help people. And so, uh, I, I just, I'm, I'm pleading with people to, to dare to get involved, uh, even though they don't have that kind of a story. And, and to be clear, um, I know about masturbation, I know about pornography, but it's true. It, it never was a, um, an addiction in the classic sense that I just, I just can't get on top of it. Um, I, I think maybe it's my age, but, um, but I, I think the men that come to me here, again, it's from, from lower twenties to to sixties, Um, the men that come to me, I think God has given me a, an anointing to be able to be a father image, someone who cheers for them, someone who believes in them.
Speaker 2 01:02:15 And, uh, and also if I need to, to, to, um, to be firm. If, if we're, if we're not doing the hard work of recovery, if, if this is a repeated pattern, um, I have the right to say, I see a problem here. What are we going to do about it? Um, and incidentally, for someone who's trying to help other people, it's really important for you not to be the policeman. Um, if, if I'm the policeman, I become the enemy and, uh, someone to avoid. But if they make the, if they make the rules and they say, This is where I draw the line, This is acceptable, and this isn't acceptable, then, then, uh, I had the right to say, So, uh, you've messed up using Instagram the last three times, so what are you gonna do about it? And, uh, and so I had that permission to, to do that.
Speaker 2 01:03:19 Yeah. So I, I think, I think, I don't know if this is across the board, but my experience has been that in a Baptists, it's not a problem that I don't have a sexual addiction story. If I'm able to help men, uh, and if they see that I am compassionate and I can talk about and I understand categories, and, uh, yeah. If I understand that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, then they, um, I think they almost trust me more, um, because I'm compassionate and because I'll talk about my stories. Um, and so I, I think that's, that's the big advantage I have. And then the disadvantage is that somebody might say, Arthur don't, won't understand, uh, I'm too deep. I don't think there's hope for me. Um, he's gonna be grossed out if he hears about all the things I've done. Um, I don't think that's true. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 01:04:29 <affirmative>, but, um, uh, those would be the kinds of things that would, it would be a perception thing on, on their end. Um, I, so far, I, I have not yet told somebody, You're in too deep. I don't think I can help you. And here's something interesting, somebody who struggles. I can't help somebody who struggles every six months as well, or as quickly as someone who struggles three times a week, because quickly we get interesting. We get to what's going on, and, uh, we're able to, to start to make progress. Whereas the person who struggles monthly or less, uh, it's a lot harder to put our finger on it. Well, what's going on? Because my assumption, and I feel like I'm, I'm seeing this very clearly. My assumption is that the men who who work with me are not, don't go to unwanted sexual behaviors because they, um, just wanna be naughty. It's, they are feeling overwhelmed and they haven't yet learned how to handle it well. And so they, they do those things. So, um,
Speaker 1 01:05:47 Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Cause I, yeah, I think even just in my own journey, like mine was more of a monthly, you know, every couple months sort of thing, and it was easy to excuse like, Oh, I don't, I don't have a, an addiction mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But the reality was there were, there were patterns there were just stretched out over a longer period of time. Um, so I can see how that could be true.
Speaker 0 01:06:17 Hey folks, I just wanted to take this time and say thank you for listening. It is fun for me to be able to sit down and interview people, but I really hope that these interviews and these podcast episodes are helpful to you in your journey as you sort through issues and, and try to reconcile your human experiences with God and what he says through his word. I would love to hear feedback from you. Obviously every episode has an email address in the description, so if you wanna shoot me an email message, let me know what you're thinking, what has stood out to you, whether positive or negative. Another really helpful way is to rate and review it on whatever podcast platform you're listening to. If it's on iTunes, I know you have the capability of rating it, as well as leaving a review. I would love to hear whether it's good or negative feedback.
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