Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I get just a little bit cautious. And I think some of that comes back to the whole thing of working with other ethnicities and the fact that respect goes two ways. Like, they. Even though they're a child, they. They also deserve my respect because they are an immigrant. I mean, they're. And so trying to figure out how to do both those pieces, like, hold my authority in the classroom, but hold my authority with respect for the other person and respect for their culture and respect for their cognitive abilities and challenges and all that.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Hey, friends.
[00:00:36] Speaker C: Welcome back to Unfeigned Christianity, where we are on a journey of becoming a people who are theologically anchored in Jesus and emotionally healthy so that we can love and disciple others. Well, today I'm excited to have on the podcast my older sister, Karita. She has been teaching in the inner city of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, for 10 years now, which kind of hard to believe, to be honest. And when I think about someone, a story to tell of someone who is actively living out, loving and discipling well, and the challenges that you face in needing to be theologically anchored or grow in that, or needing to be emotionally healthy or grow in that. I think of my sister Karita and anybody who is teaching in a setting, any kind of setting, but especially in the one that she finds herself in. So I asked if she would be willing to come on and talk about it, and she consented, and we had a good conversation. In the conversation, we discussed what drew her into teaching, particularly in the inner city. I don't think that was the first place she envisioned herself teaching, but through her journey of academic studies and even just some of the experiences that she had along the way, discovered that that is kind of where she felt God leading her and directing her. We also talk about how a predominantly white Anabaptist staff builds trust with a diverse student body, which they deal with at their school. And we talk about what she's had to unlearn about how other people need Jesus. And we get into a lot more than just that. So I invite you to join us on this conversation. I trust that it's not only going to be interesting for you in hearing Karita's stories, but it will be helpful in examining what it looks like to really engage others well, even though your context might be different. And so, without further ado, here's my conversation with Karita.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: All right. Hey, Karita. Welcome to Unfeigned Christianity.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: It's good to have you on the podcast. I'd love to just hear. Hear your story. There we were Already kind of asking before hitting record, talking about some. Your process getting into teaching. I've kind of observed that journey and have never sat down and asked my siblings, like, what. What led you into this? You are teaching inner city, which for those of us that don't know, like, we, we did move to the city as older teenagers or you would have been an adult already. But most of our childhood and formation was a more small town, rural usa. Just the fact that you're in the city, you're dealing with with a different culture and dynamic than what we were familiar with. But you also have a diversity of ethnicities and cultures within the student body and so forth. So I, yeah, I just love to hear in general what that journey has been like and lessons you've learned along the way. But maybe to start with, I'm curious what. And I asked you about this yesterday and you said you couldn't remember. You couldn't remember it. So after.
You're very good at English. English, I've from just for people who don't know us. Creeda is the oldest. I'm the third born. I'm smack in the middle of five, five years younger than Krita. So from my journey, my perspective, you've always been good and interested in English and so forth. And I knew that you had this interest in teaching and we homeschooled and I can remember a year, I think I was 13, which is embarrassing with how old I was and what I'm about to say. But the. I remember a time where I was struggling with English and mom had you help me because you were grad. I think you had graduated already at that point. And I got so angry that I remember grabbing your head covering and yanking it off your head. So after that experience, why did you still want. Maybe you knew that none of the rest of the world would be that bad. What, what about teaching has interested you? The frustrations of. It's interesting because I taught for a few years and English was actually a subject I sort of enjoyed teaching partly because I struggled with it, whereas math, I get impatient. Like, I never struggled with math. And so it's easy to be like, why don't you get this? You've always been interested in English. You've always done well at it. That's always been your area of expertise. Yeah.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: What.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: What led you into teaching? Why is interest and why was that what you pursued in college?
[00:05:22] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question. I think when I was in high school, I had a couple people whose stories I was following. Maybe for Lack of a better way to say it. A couple people that I admired who were teachers and who were telling stories about ways that they were impacting their,
[00:05:39] Speaker B: like contemporary people, like people you knew at the time or.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: No, they would have been older adults. I had do a. I had to do a vocation project I think, in my senior year. And so I picked teaching and interviewed.
I think I real life interviewed one person and then did one or two questionnaire type things. Because back then video chat was not a thing.
Yeah, or if it was not, very many people used it.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: What year would that have been?
[00:06:10] Speaker A: I graduated in 2004, so sometime before that I think it was my senior year. So I'm thinking like fall, winter 2003, 2004, probably.
[00:06:18] Speaker B: I mean, social media wouldn't have even been a thing.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: No, not really. So one of them was one of mom's former students who they had gotten back in touch somehow and she was teaching, I guess you could say inner city. I'm not actually sure if it was a city, but definitely cross cultural in Texas, Southern Texas, like on the border of Mexico.
And so definitely public school, church or like. Yeah.
And so I was just really intrigued with the stories that she was telling about ways she was able to impact her students even with scripture, even in a public school context. And then I had, you know, I have an aunt that's a teacher who I looked up to.
We were relating to some young people at the time that went to public school. And so that was probably catching my interest as well.
Otherwise, I don't really know what.
Beyond those influences, I'm not really sure what took me into teaching except that to a certain degree it's in our blood. Both of our parents, school before they were married and actually after they were married, some of it might just be natural genetics or whatever, pass those things on.
And then you were asking earlier about like why the city?
And I mean, we grew up in town and so I think I always. I'm not really a country girl, so that probably contributes. But I'm not sure what actually drew me to the city other than probably dad's interest in it kind of rubbing off on me and then having some exposure to it once we did move to Los Angeles. But even before that, cities were catching my attention. I spent 10 weeks in Flint, Michigan the fall after I graduated. And I remember as a high school student already being interested in teaching and maybe in the city because mom found a advertisement or like a request for a teacher for followers of Jesus school in New York City that she Cut out and gave to me. And I carried that in my Bible for a good couple of years. Like I wasn't old enough to. I was still in high school. I wasn't old enough to pursue anything and I don't think it was even a. I think they might have actually been looking for a secretary at the time, which wouldn't have really been. But like so obviously things like that tell me that cities were catching my attention.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I was going to ask because you, you had started your college, you did post secondary, right?
[00:08:38] Speaker A: No, I didn't, I didn't start call any kind until after I was out of high school.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:08:43] Speaker A: So.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: And that would have been after we moved or before we moved.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: I did one semester at Rainy River Community College and then was registered for the next one. But that was the winter that I really wanted to get into SMBI to go to Costa Rica on tour. So I ended up skipping that one. And then. Yeah, I don't remember why I didn't go back the next fall, but for some reason I didn't. I had a job or did I do two semesters? Maybe I did two semesters in international.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: Did you?
My question was going to be if you had interest in city at that point already or if it was largely after the move. But you say it would have been before you graduated that you had the followers of Jesus.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: Flyer. Peace.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And like I would have already done Flint by that time and dad had already been to LA multiple times and even though he hadn't taken the family
[00:09:30] Speaker B: there and you guys actually you went with him on one, by that time
[00:09:36] Speaker A: we would have done sabbatical there too.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: So that probably would have been influencing me by the time I went back to college.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. And so you, I mean I kind of forget exactly your journey. You taught for a period in a small school and then you came back after mom's death. You came back to LA for two or three years or.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So my, my early introductions to teaching would have been, I guess you could say vacation Bible school and kids clubs. But yeah, I tutored you guys, helped my siblings and then I was a personal caregiver for a friend of ours in International Falls as she started.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: And so that was my first introduction to public school and also my first introduction just kind of moving from high school to elementary in my interests. But I just, I was like my only job was to take care of her and so I did just a ton of observation. I guess you could Say observing the classroom teacher, observing the special ed teacher, because that's why I was caregiving. It was because the child was special needs. So I learned a little bit about that. And then after we moved I would have done. I volunteered briefly at a after school club so would have done a little bit of tutoring that way.
Was a nanny for a while out in la.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: You did the after. I would have forgot that it wasn't
[00:10:57] Speaker A: very long and I don't remember why it didn't last if it just wasn't fitting my schedule or if it wasn't quite. Yeah, I don't remember why I didn't last. But then was a nanny for a while, did a teeny tiny bit of substitute teaching in preschools that also didn't last very long. But like every time I got a touch of teaching I knew that, I knew that I wanted to teach.
And for a while it felt kind of like, well, I'm getting ahead of myself, I guess. So then we were doing kids clubs and things like that. And then 2012, I moved to Pennsylvania to teach at a another small Christian school. It wasn't in a city, but it was. Was still that sort of a school aimed at students who wanted an alternative to public schools. Yeah, small, like smaller classroom sizes, more individualized teaching, but then also christian. And I spe 1/4 there and then at the end of that quarter was when mom was killed and I moved home. And part of the reason, part of what took me home was that Christopher was still in high school. And so I oversaw his last two years of high school and then by. And got more involved in kids clubs, did some more tutoring out there, things like that, and then did a brief stint of ESL teaching and, and that was adults. And I knew that ESL without any training at least was not for me. And I knew that teaching adults was not for me. It probably wasn't a trial on that because they were literally just. I had kind of the class that was. They needed to take classes in order to keep their visa, whatever visa they had brought over. And so they weren't terribly committed to being there and I had been given no training whatsoever, so it probably wasn't a fair try, but. But I once again I walked away thinking, I don't know why this doesn't work. Like, I don't know why I keep having my dream collapse or whatever, but I want to teach someday.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember you talking about that now that I would have forgot about that, but now that you're talking about it, remember you processing that now? I mean, you've been at Way of Jesus for what?
[00:12:57] Speaker A: This is my 10th year. 10th year.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: 10 years already. Hold it.
What do you. What do you think now in light of that kind of trying different things and then they. Them not working out and wondering why they don't work out. But now you've been.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: I mean, in some ways, the fact that I could walk away from some of those and not completely give up speaks. Stick to God, because I tend to be a pretty pessimistic person. And so the. Yeah. Walk. Being able to walk away from, especially that last experience and being just confident that somewhere, sometime, this is gonna work.
Yeah. So I think it was. Yeah. Largely just God that kept me from totally giving up. And then when I moved to Pennsylvania in 2015, while I knew that I wanted to teach someday, that is not actually what brought me here. I found out about Way of Jesus after I was here.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: When were you. Sorry I interrupted you. You kind of helped out with an elderly couple for a while, didn't you? Or an older lady back in pa?
[00:13:55] Speaker A: When I was here the first time, at the first school before mom died, I lived with an older lady.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: Oh, is that what it was?
[00:14:00] Speaker A: Possibly.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: What brought you back to Pennsylvania in 2015? Yeah.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: I knew that I needed a break, and so I basically came to Pennsylvania to take a sabbatical.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: I forgot. Yeah.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: So I came to Pennsylvania to take a sabbatical. Purposely took jobs that were not at all ministry related.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: I had a cleaning job. I had a bakery job. I had a job at a flower shop helping plant flowers. Places that I could just clock in, clock out. Wasn't responsible for anybody, really. I mean, I had to pick people up or whatever, but.
But halfway through that year of doing that, I was like, I am not going to survive if I have to do these things for the rest of my life.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Which. That was before the flower garden. That was just the bakery and cleaning at that point, and especially the cleaning. I was just like, I can't clean. I'm not cut out to do this for the rest of my life as a job, even though I'd prefer to clean than to cook.
[00:14:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:53] Speaker A: And somewhere in there, I started catching wind of the school here in Lancaster City. I knew people who sent their son here and through them, started reaching out to the school. I came to their spring program in March or April, but I think I had already contacted the administrator at that point, and we set up an interview, filled out the paperwork. I was offered a job, and I've
[00:15:15] Speaker B: been Here ever since you've been there. Ever since. Yeah. That's interesting. The. I mean, it's interesting hearing kind of rehearsing this story because I always look at the. Well, I guess Christopher's probably a little bit in my boat. But three of you basically straight out of high school, had had your sight set on a vocation that you wanted to go to college for. And I know Marcel's journey has been tweaked different from what maybe his original dream was and so forth. But like, I've often. Yeah.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Because my undergrad is actually English.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And you were. You were specifically thinking for older, like high school or older.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: Well, I mean, that's. That's who does English.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: So I. Most people with.
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Were you. Were you ever thinking like, college level or.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: No, not college level. It would have been more high school level.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Although I did think of esl.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Until I had an experience actually teaching in esl. Then I was like.
But also I hadn't had any training, like, because of the way I did my college career. I did three or four semesters at community colleges, and then I was about to. At the place where I would need to transition to university of some sort and was pretty intimidated by the California universities, and so I switched online at that point.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Did you do any on campus in California? Well, yeah.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: You did community college and
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Rancho Cucamonga?
[00:16:42] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
Came out one day and the van was smashed.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: Welcome to the city. I guess. I mean, things like that can happen in the country, but yeah, it's a little unique. What was I going to say about that, though? Oh. And so when I online that. That kind of thing was available back then, but was still probably in the early stages of online learning, at least as a majority method. I know I had looked into it some before and the price had always stopped me even from online college. But at that point, when I looked into it, I went with College plus, which is completely different now. I don't even know what their name is, but kind of a mentoring coaching organization that helped me figure out, like, a good college to use that was cost efficient. They also led me through taking a ton of CLEP tests, which saved me tons of actual credit, hour time and money. But then they put me in touch with a college that would give it. That would accept all my CLEP credits and give me a degree or whatever. And at the time, the only degree, the only English degree offered, this was the only college they worked with at that time. And the only degree for English from that college was more of A literature track. Whereas if I had gone to actual university and even waited a couple years to go through college, plus when they had more options, there would have been better options for ESL or teaching. Like, there's kind of three or four tracks that an English major can go. Like, you can kind of go down the journalism writing track, you can go down the teaching track, and that can either be traditional teaching or esl, but that. What. Those are two separate tracks because you teach differently or like the literature track. And I think there's a few others, but those are probably the main English tracks. And I knew I wanted the teaching thing, but because of how. Because I was online and because I was in LA and kind of intimidated by the whole public school environment and public college environment out there, I just stopped after that rather than get, like. Had I gone traditional route and been able to take a teacher training track, I would have also gotten my teacher certification as part of my undergrad. But since that wasn't available with the online school that I used, I just did the literature track and graduated with my bachelor's in English.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:18:50] Speaker A: So then when I came back to college in 2022, I needed to start out. I mean, I could have probably just gone straight to the master's, but I also wanted my certification. So I spent some extra time pursuing certification that some people. That most people would have done with their undergrad.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: And by then I knew that I wasn't. By then I had, like, my interest ever since, even while I was in college pursuing English, I knew that the part of English that I actually enjoy, like, going back to college and then observing some of my classes and stuff, I realized that the part of English that I actually enjoy is the stuff that gets taught in elementary school, not in high school.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: Because by high school, you're mostly focusing on writing and literature, analyzation and things like that. I mean, they still do some grammar.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: But a lot of places have kind of moved from that. And I. Despite my love of English and despite my love of reading, I hate analyzing literature and I don't like to write.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: Oh, really?
[00:19:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:50] Speaker B: But you. You. Do you enjoy proofreading or you just.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: I would rather proofread than write.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: But to this day, that's one of my least favorite jobs as a teacher, is grading my students writing.
[00:20:01] Speaker B: Really?
[00:20:02] Speaker A: I don't mind. I don't mind editing their writing, but I hate needing to put a grade on it.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: It's so subjective. It's.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: Writing is probably the. It's better with the Only thing I like.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: Yeah, it's better with a rubric, but it's still kind of hard to. I don't know.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I need to.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: That's not gonna be. It's getting dark.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: It's not. Yeah. I mean it's not terribly bad.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Okay. Let me know if it gets too bad and I can turn on some other ones. Sure.
[00:20:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
So, yeah, I was relating to kids
[00:20:31] Speaker A: more and I was realizing that the part of English that I actually enjoy, the grammar and dissecting of sentences and things like that, is actually more elementary level. And so even when I graduated with my bachelor's in English, I knew that had I been able to do it over again, I probably would have gone more the elementary education around. So then when I went back to school in 2022, by then I had been teaching for six years or whatever it was in elementary. And so that like my master's is just masters in education.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: Does that, what does that give you more. Does that having a master's of education, does that give you something more within your current schooling or is it more just tools in your tool pouch?
[00:21:17] Speaker A: In terms of my current environment, it's more just tools in my tool pouch. I mean, obviously it opens up. If I were to ever want to teach somewhere else, it opens up my options.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Pretty significantly. But in terms of where I'm at, it's just tools.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Yeah. So to zero in a little bit more on the, the students and the. Your where you've been for 10 years now. Give us a setting of what type of demographic makes up your class on a. You know, obviously it varies from year to year, but for the most part, like what you've. Who you serve.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: It definitely varies from year to year and I'm not even sure what, like what the overall statistics actually are in terms of ethnicity. Let me think about my current class. 50% currently would be ethnically Caucasian and 50% would not be. But of that 50% that is not ethnically Caucasian, it's a pretty big. It's a mixture. I've got Asian, Hispanic and African and probably some African American. Yeah.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: So do you, you have African from like recently immigrated from Africa.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: Interesting. That, that. Yeah. So I, I, where. Where I'm most curious there. There's a couple things where I'm curious about and so maybe I'll just ask you and you can talk or not a couple things. One is your school is the. You know, it's primarily. I was just looking at it. I guess I didn't pay close enough attention but most of the faculty would be Caucasian.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: If not all 100%.
And specifically from Anabaptist background. Correct. Yeah. And so. Yeah. I'm curious. What is. What is that dynamic been, like, where you have a student body that is. There's not really anybody where we don't
[00:23:01] Speaker A: ethnically represent our student body in our staff body.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Or even really know what the. Like, you didn't. I'm assuming that none of these teachers really grew up in a setting that a lot of your student body might come from. But then also, like, what is the.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: The.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Because, I mean, I taught for three years, and all three years, we. The most I ever had was 14 students, but at one point I had seven different ethnicities represented. And so, I mean, that can. That can be challenging just to navigate the cultural dynamics among the student body. And so what are. Yeah. What has been.
What's been your experience in that.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: That's something that's recently kind of come to my. Somebody else was asking me about that recently, and I think they probably deal a little bit more with some of that in high school than we do in elementary.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:23:48] Speaker A: And I don't know the answer to it. Like, I don't know if it comes up or if they. As a whole, I would say that the atmosphere at our school is mutual respect. In fact, just recently, the high school team, like, we hear. We get feedback a little bit more from high school because they're. They have sports teams playing other schools. And I was just in a conversation where the high school administrator was saying that parents had come up to him from the opposite team and said that they like when their team plays us because our kids are respectful on the.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Yeah.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: And considering, I mean, we're not all from Christian. The kids are not all from Christian homes. That. That's a really high compliment coming from an environment that the kids are not all from Christian homes. And so somehow, like, I think maybe because there's so many ethnicities, respect maybe gets emphasized a little more than maybe
[00:24:38] Speaker B: at some schools respecting each other's differences and. Yeah.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Well. And just treating each other with dignity and respect.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Kindness. Kindness might actually be a better word even than then. It's not like at school, we don't always see the respect that they get complimented for. But in general, I mean, it's definitely something we. We talk about and prioritize kindness.
[00:24:59] Speaker B: How. How do you prioritize? Like, is it just in. Like, do you have sermons every week? Or is there. What ways. Have you kind of baked that into your Environment to be respectful of each other.
[00:25:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a, I mean, it's an interesting question because there's so many things that I feel like I just do it and then when I try to explain it to somebody, I'm not sure how to put it into words to teach it to somebody else. But I mean, some of the things that we talk about as teachers is like, we don't emphasize best friends. Like it's okay, kids have best friends, but at school we're all friends. And so we try really hard to not let the little. Especially in elementary school, now high school, you can't control that as much. And so it probably happens. And obviously you're going to connect with certain people more than you do with others. And if you go to church with somebody, obviously you're going to connect more just because you're with.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: You have more touch points.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah, but there's a really strong emphasis at school that you, that you're friends with everybody. And we don't like when, when the best friend clicky dynamics are happening, we come down on it. Come down on it hard. Sounds kind of cruel, but like it gets addressed.
Especially if there's any kind of intimidating, unkind behavior towards somebody else that would be exclusive, then it for sure gets addressed. We simple little rules. Like if you bring a snack for one person, like if you want to share something with one person in your class, you have to share it with everybody. Like there's no singling out of this person. I want to give this person a birthday gift. If you're going to bring a birthday gift for that person, you have to commit to bringing a birthday gift for all your other classmates as well. Interesting little things like that.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: Treating everybody.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: How do you keep track of that?
[00:26:35] Speaker A: I, I mean, it doesn't always get kept track of, but I, I only, I can only control what I see happening.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: If they want to be more.
Like, I know that there are birthday parties that happen where only the girls get invited and not the boys. If, if I'm in on the invitation passing, they have to give to everybody. If they do it outside of school, they can just give to whoever they want to. So it is more. We're only controlling what we see happen at school.
And I don't, I don't like the word control, but, but I, I still think having that attitude at school of like, no, we're gonna, we're gonna include everybody. Even, even though I know that outside of school sometimes there's more individualistic interactions, I still think it affects the overall atmosphere of friendship at school.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That is.
That is. I don't know if I did that, if we did that well in my tenure or not. Because it feels like teaching respect. Like it's, It's. It was easy to see clicks happening and then depending on how you. You know, I joke about telling sermons because sometimes when you like come down harsh on it, then it almost amplifies. Like, you know, the clicks solidify themselves. And. And so I don't know. I don't think that actually works.
[00:27:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:53] Speaker B: To do a spiel about. I mean, maybe get. Depending on what the situation is. But.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: And I really do think it is different. Like, I'm trying to remember what all age range you had that you were working with. Because I'm definitely.
[00:28:07] Speaker B: It's from like 15 down to 6.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: Okay. Because my experience is definitely elementary. I don't. I'm. I would guess that there's a few more challenges along that line in high school.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: But I'm. I'm not there observing them.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: And so I'm not actually sure for sure how they would handle that. I know that any kind of unkindness. I think I can say with a lot of certainty that any kind of unkindness towards somebody else, especially if it would be at all culturally targeted, would not be tolerated.
[00:28:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And then. And then there's the, the whole dynamic of. And this is something I'd be curious to hear. The. The fact of like my cult. Culturally accepted way to reprimand or correct someone.
[00:28:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:51] Speaker B: Maybe like highly offensive in the students culture or. Or kind of an ineffective.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Yes. I mean, classic example. When in our culture when you're dealing with authority and, and child or student, they're expected to look you in the eye.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:06] Speaker A: And like. And sometimes it's demanded look me in the eye. And I still will occasionally do that. But I am much more hesitant to do that than I used to be.
[00:29:14] Speaker B: Especially honor shame culture.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Because there are some cultures where it's actually disrespectful to look the authority in the eye. And it took me a while till I realized that. And so once I started realizing that, even while I still sometimes did it, I did it with a lot more like, sure, I should be demanding this. I think more for me now it's more like a, like, look at me. In other words, like turn your body and face me rather than don't be
[00:29:38] Speaker B: like pointed away from me.
[00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, if they're trying to like turn. Turn their back to me, I would prefer that they at least be face forward at me even if their eyes are not looking at my eyes.
Because I'm more and more just hesitant to demand, to demand that for a lot of reasons. One reason is the cultural thing. I've also taken some college classes. In one of my classes, it came up that some students with like autism kids on the spectrum can struggle with eye contact culturally and even then just. I don't know what the word is
[00:30:12] Speaker B: for that cognitively or. I don't.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: Yeah, like, yeah, I'm not sure what word I want for that. But like it's, it's not always possible or like it's. Yeah, it's ingrained in them to be, to not do that. So I hesitate to do that. The other thing that I sometimes hesitate and I know that this is born out of my experience in teaching, probably even some of my kids club experience before that, but just I always feel just a little bit hesitant demanding respect. I mean some of that probably comes even out of my own story, but
[00:30:40] Speaker B: respect for yourself, like you demanding respect for you.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: Yes. Especially when it's coming through in a. You must be subordinate to me.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: Oh yeah.
[00:30:49] Speaker A: And like I say this very carefully because I was just having a conversation last week about how teachers do need to remember that they are the teacher, they are the authority.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: They set the tone in their classroom. Like what the teacher does or does not tolerate, that's what's going to happen. Like if, you know, the kindness thing, if a teacher is letting unkindness happen, then the classroom is going to be unkind. If the teacher insists on kindness, kindness is going to be more prevalent. So to a certain degree there is a, there's an authority that a teacher has to have. But when it comes to demanding, insisting on or demanding respect, I get just a little bit cautious. And I think some of that comes back to the whole thing of working with other ethnicities and the fact that I wrote it down earlier today because it must have been that important that as I was thinking about this, I wanted to bring it up. Respect goes two ways.
Like they, even though they're a child, they also deserve my respect because they are an image. I mean they're, yeah, they were made in the image of God. So they deserve dignity and respect even if they are younger than me.
And so trying to figure out how to, how to do both those pieces, like hold my authority in the classroom, but hold my authority with respect for the other person and respect for their culture and respect for their cognitive abilities and challenges and all of that, I Don't, I don't get it 100%, 100% of the year. But it's definitely things that are kind of always in the back of my mind.
[00:32:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Do you guys kind of circling back to the whole fact that you as a faculty are.
Yeah. Pretty monolithic. Do you ever deal with trust issues like whether it's with students trusting you guys or the parents and family of. I mean obviously there, there's a level of trust that everybody, you know that needs to be built between student and faculty or parents and faculty. But I guess I'm thinking particularly around perhaps the cultural differences and, and just that dynamic. The fact that. Yeah, yeah. The. There isn't somebody like US Representative on the.
[00:32:46] Speaker A: I'm sure that there are challenges like that. I haven't, it hasn't come up strongly that I'm aware of how much of that is just because I'm a teacher versus an administrator. I don't know.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: You would have parent teacher meetings, right? Like.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm trying to think if the race thing, like the ethnic difference has ever come up though.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: So I mean that point of contention or whatever, that kind of leads me to another follow up question. Like do you. Is it best to just like I guess I'm asking in your experience, like you, you guys have mute. You talked about this sense of mutual respect. Have you done that by kind of ignoring differences, ethnic differences or whatever, or do you specifically talk about them? We're, we're recording this on MLK Day. Do you try to celebrate different special holidays of the different ethnicities or do you just kind of go with the American. Since we're under American government, you just go with the what. Whatever the, the instituted holidays are. Yeah. Like kind of walk me through some of that process.
[00:33:51] Speaker A: Yeah. When it comes to holidays, we pretty much go with the government instituted holidays, but we've done a little bit over the years in terms of celebrating black history or even Hispanic history because we have quite a bit of that as well. We don't do that as much with elementary. High school is a little. Has been more intentional about that the last several years and I'm not sure why we don't in the elementary other than like there's just a lot to keep track of. And when you have so many cultures, after all, it's like if we're not careful, we're going to leave somebody out here.
Like if we don't, if we don't intentionally figure out what each culture is, then we're going to end up leaving somebody out. So I don't. I think we probably could do better at actually bringing them in and celebrating them might be a word. I think we could probably do better at that. But I think we are also. I think. I think with what we do and how we do interact, we've been pretty intentional about being respectful, if that makes sense. When we can, we'll bring in speakers of other. Other ethnicities for like chapel talks and things like that.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: Excuse me. Trying to think. I think there's. I think there's def. Probably more we could do, but I think. I think like, the very simple answer is doing our best to. To respect at least our students and. And then also their parents and to just be understanding of the backgrounds that each one's coming from.
[00:35:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's kind of what I was trying to poke at a little bit is like, how. How much do you intentionally, like, set up celebrations of differences or like actually picking up the difference and looking at it and teaching respect for it, or do you just kind of address it as you bump into it and with that kind of bedrock of respect, period?
[00:35:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I think for sure there's that for sure. In my classroom, that would be a little more how I handle it. And when I'm, you know, discussing history and stuff that reveals some of the horrible ways my culture has interacted with some of my students cultures, I'm pretty quick to be like, that that wasn't right, like, and like to discuss. Discuss that and own that it's not right or whatever. And then like this year there, I can't even remember what we were talking about, but something completely unrelated to culture would have actually been in either a literature class or a Bible class. It brought up with one of my immigrant students how they pray in their. In their culture. And so, like, little opportunities like that to just hear how they do it and like, talk about the differences. And, you know, other students spoke up then of what they know about this culture, that religion or whatever. So I guess when it does come, when the differences do come up, discussing them and.
And celebrating them.
[00:36:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:30] Speaker A: Well, I mean, honestly, it's kind of one of those things that I think I'm just kind of constantly aware of the fact that there's always more that could be done.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:41] Speaker A: But also, there's only so much a person can do.
[00:36:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: In a given day or school year, how much Some of it has to be two way. Like. Yeah. Because sometimes there are parents that I never meet just because they never show up at an event or whatever at the Same time you asked about, like, I don't, I don't know. I don't remember what you asked, but it made me think of this. A lot of the people that have come to our school, like, whether we've been like, we, we have not done advertise, we don't need to do advertising. Like our, we always have a wait list and we have to, we. We've never needed to do any kind of advertising.
[00:37:17] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:37:18] Speaker A: So, like, word of mouth is being spread is. Is largely how it happens. And I think in one situation, I think they saw our bus with our name on it and we're like, oh, I wonder what that is.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: And so I think, I think I was thinking about this in regards to our very white Anabaptist staff body, which sometimes does bother me. But also when you look across the demographic of Anabaptists, the majority is white. And so, yeah, it's hard to diversify if you're going to stay Anabaptist, if you're going to only hire from within Anabaptist. But like, I think it was the trust you asked about. Trust. If there's any struggle with trust, and I'm sure that it comes up once in a while, but by and large, our families have chosen to be here.
They weren't forced to be here, they've chosen to be here. And so in many ways they.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: That's true. Yeah. They, they may have processed some of that beforehand or. Yeah, or.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: Or choose.
Choose to defer.
I don't necessarily like to think of it that way because hopefully we, hopefully when it matters and when we can, we're also deferring to them. But I think for the majority of them, they're choosing to trust because they wanted something different than the public school.
[00:38:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:26] Speaker A: And so I think some of those things mattered more to them maybe than some of the, like, the, the Christian thing, I think maybe mattered more than the culture thing.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: If that makes sense. But I think if we were terrible at the culture piece, it would, it would also be. That would be being spread around too. So hopefully we're not doing too terrible at it.
[00:38:44] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. What are, what are some things as you.
I mean, I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, but I look at the salary that you have and the income that you're getting in these 10 years and the stress that teaching is, the demand that it is for nine, at least nine months out of the year.
And I like, surely it. Surely you're not doing this just because you love English. That Much like helping young kids who have crooked penmanship and can't spell correctly and stink at grammar.
So I'm assuming there, there is a, a deep love for people that, and that's what I see from you as a person that motivates the, the continual work of teaching. And even, even when it's not like, even when you're learning on the, on the job, it's not like you're perfect at it. But what are some. Trying to figure out how to phrase it. Yeah. Just in order to love your students. Well, like what are some of the lessons that you've had to learn or even presuppositions you've bumped into that.
[00:39:57] Speaker A: Well, I think some of this probably started stirring in my heart even before I was conscious of it. I was a little bit conscious of it even before I started teaching, like in my years in LA when it was just kids, ministry and other things like that, but not actual full time teaching. There's a few things that I think about. I definitely feel more called to, to schools that service under serviced children. I'm like, my original dream would have been public school, which doesn't always include under serviced children, but there's usually some of those.
[00:40:26] Speaker B: And by underserviced you mean like low income, don't have as much access to certain opportunities and.
[00:40:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also with public school, spiritually underserviced.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:40] Speaker A: You can't really address in a straightforward manner in a public school, but you can still make a difference. Like. And my original dream would have been public school, but the more I observed public schools, the more I felt that I would be frustrated in a public school for a number of reasons. And back when I first realized that I would be frustrated there, my reasons were not even spiritual reasons like they were. Academically I was pretty sure I'd be frustrated just because of the size of the classrooms and because of what sometimes feels like lack of quality in the curriculum and environment or whatever. I prefer a much smaller class size than what you generally get in a public school. And I just knew that academically I think I would be frustrated with what I'd be able to do or not do for my students in a public school. But then last spring when I was doing my student teaching in a public school, and over the last several years I've increasingly grown to love teaching Bible to my students that teach my Bible class or whatever. And I think some of it's as, I mean, this kind of comes back to what have I learned. I think one of the Things I've learned is that we, I mean, I knew this, but I've learned it in a real way as I've, you know, come face to face with my own sinfulness or whatever. We all need Jesus. No matter what the color of our skin is or how often we've been to church, we all need Jesus. And quite honestly, some of us that go to church more often might need to be told that more clearly than some of the others because we tend to think that we've, we're okay, we've got it together. We're not like those kids now. Sorry, sorry, buster. You need Jesus.
And sometimes they're the ones that show it, show it the most that they need Jesus. So as I've run into, as I've processed my own story and my own need of Jesus, I've and, and along with that, been learning the gospel in ways that I hadn't prior. In prior years, I've enjoyed presenting that to my students then. So then last spring when I was doing my student teaching, one of the first classes that my. And this was just a first grade class, so little kids younger than what I spent most of my life teaching. One of the first classes she handed off to meet my mentor teacher handed off to me was the morning meeting and social emotional learning. And I think it was partly because it was new to her and she didn't exactly know how it was supposed to be run either, so she just kind of passed it off to me. Plus, it was easy, like I could just kind of follow the slides or whatever and I, I enjoyed doing that. But I remember at some point in the semester just realizing that, like, we've tried to do some social emotional learning teaching in our school as well. But until this year it had been kind of just encouraged, like make sure you do some of these, you know, a couple times a month or whatever. But we'd kind of left it up to the teachers. We hadn't been super intentional with it. And then when I was teaching it on a regular basis in the public school classroom, I got more sold on it just because it's all those basic things of like teaching, treating each other with respect and kindness and safety and things like that.
But I realized partway through that I firmly believe these things and I think that kids need to be taught them. But in the public school, that curriculum was missing. The foundational piece of why we teach this and that is that God made you. That's why you have worth. Because they talk about, you know, believing in your own self worth and Things like that and respecting the people around you. I agree with all of that. But the reason for that is that God made you and you are made in the image of God and they were missing that whole piece. And because it was a public school, I couldn't bring that in. But it felt like such a.
A key piece of like the reason you have worth and you should believe in your own worth and talk respectfully to yourself is because you're made in the image of God. And by the same token, the reason you should treat your friend with respect and kindness is because they too are made in the image of God.
Trying to remember what took me down that train of thought which, what you said. But I think just the thing back to the, like, I think that's what, that's partly why I'm in the setting that I am. Because it has the kinds of kids that would go to a public school, but I get to do it from a Christian perspective.
[00:44:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:41] Speaker A: Smaller classroom size, I can actually. I mean, people still fall through the cracks even in our 10 student classrooms, but hopefully they're getting more help than if they were in a 25, 30 student classroom.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:56] Speaker A: And we're also talking to them about Jesus and where their true value comes from.
[00:45:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:00] Speaker A: So that's definitely one of the things that has. I mean, I, I kind of think of that as like something I've learned, but also kind of one of those cultural presuppositions that kind of need needs to be addressed in that. Like when it comes to that stuff, we're all on the same playing field. We all need Jesus.
[00:45:17] Speaker B: You're not exempt somehow, a little bit more higher level character just because you were born into a certain family.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: Right.
Or because you go to church every Sunday and every Wednesday and go to all the events. Not even because your dad is the pastor or, you know, whatever. Like we all need Jesus.
[00:45:35] Speaker B: It's always struck.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: Go ahead.
[00:45:37] Speaker B: Just along that line, the, the part where Paul is like talking about being an ambassador for Christ and kind of defending his apostleship is the same chapter where he talks about being the worst of all sinners. And it's always, I guess, been a little bit of a model that I think it can be easy. When we train for ministry. Train for ministry. We have a little bit of this heroism mentality.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:05] Speaker B: A lot of it coming perhaps from a good intuition, a good desire to help out and also recognizing people's needs or whatever. But I agree with you.
I think to do it well, we need to start from the place of realizing that we. We are all in need of. Like, we're not. We're not up on top of the pile, reaching down, pulling people up.
[00:46:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:28] Speaker B: More. We're collecting arms around shoulders, working together as we seek the kingdom of God.
[00:46:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And it can be hard to. I mean, because there are definitely some people that are more stable than other people, and so it can be a little hard to know how to do that. But, like, I think maybe sometimes I'll just. Recognizing that we always have. There's always more to learn.
The more I learn about the world and other cultures and about everything.
Yeah. Other cultures, other backgrounds, other people who are not me. The more I realize I have a lot to learn. And also the more I am aware of the fact that things are not always as clear as they seem to us when you start interacting with other backgrounds and cultures. Like, everybody has reasons why. Everybody has reasons why they do it. They might not even be aware of their reasons. Just like, by that. And by that same token, we might not always be aware of the reasons why we do what we do. But I don't. Yeah.
[00:47:23] Speaker B: They're not necessarily malicious just because they're doing something that we think is quite bad or quite.
[00:47:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Or even, like. Yeah. I don't know how to. I think I'm very aware that this could go to a broad audience, and so I'm wanting to be careful how I say it, but not think. I. I think the more. The more I read, the more I rub shoulders with different families and different cultures, the more I'm aware that I actually come from a pretty privileged situation. Even though in my culture, I probably would be kind of on the low lower end of middle class or like. Yeah, certainly middle class. But, like, things that we take for granted, other people can't take for granted. Like. Let's just go here for an example. The fact that I move Pennsylvania knowing a handful of people.
[00:48:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:10] Speaker A: With barely enough money for a month of living on my own. But before I ever got here, I had a job lined up. I had an apartment that I was gonna go look at, and I had the offer of a vehicle to use at least within the first week. And that is simply because I had a couple connections and probably largely because I was Anabaptist. Like, Anabaptists tend to trust other Anabaptists quicker than. Had I moved in here, even knowing one or two people, but not being Anabaptist, I probably wouldn't have had quite that much privilege. And so, you know, from an economic standpoint, it behooves us to not cast judgment because not everybody has access to that kind of support or those kinds of connections. Like literally connections. That's all it was. I knew one person who knew another person.
[00:48:56] Speaker B: That in itself is a type of wealth to have that kind of network.
[00:49:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, absolutely is a type of wealth and a type of. I don't know if trust is the right word, but like community, like we don't let our, we don't let our people just out on their own. Like I say that carefully because I, I know that there are people in our culture who do end up feeling out on their own. But generally speaking, we look out for each other. Like you, you see that at funerals and things like that where people just rally around and provide. And when you get to know people from other cultures and especially immigrants or you know, people that are in the city, like they don't always have that and it's not that they, you know, I'm trying to think about some of the common stereotypes can tend to be like, it's not that they're lazy or yeah, just trying to take advantage or anything like that, but they don't always have the connections that we do and so think so. The solutions to problems are not always as clear cut as we would like to think.
[00:49:51] Speaker B: Do you guys ever have.
And I don't remember I've been out of school enough. Maybe this isn't real relevant as opposed to like a church plant setting, but like where you have a problem within the group that you, you need to kind of hear the, the people themselves identify what the solution might be before you, before you just project a solution on, like with, with your.
Not, you know, for example, immigrant. I don't know how, I don't know what percentage of your students are immigrant, but do you ever. Is there ever a problem that the immigrant students are bumping into that you just kind of offer your solution without first kind of hearing from the families and parents like what they're actually needing. And, and how do you.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I mean, I can't think of necessarily any immigrant stories per se. I think that does sometimes come up culturally, particularly in like. I'm thinking of a situation that came up recently in a behavior situation where somebody was given a consequence for something and they didn't fully understand what it was for just because they weren't like, just because of like they just didn't know that that was a, an offensive thing or whatever. Young, young. And they were not, they were not being intentionally mean and to a certain degree were Only like they had also been receiving some unkindness. And so maybe they were being. I don't think they were being intentionally mean, but also were just giving back what they were getting, but didn't.
Didn't know if. Didn't know that they had escalated things, I guess, because they just didn't know. And so in. In some situations, hearing. I mean, in that case, I think hearing from the parents is what was helpful. And I mean, generally speaking, a lot of fraud, most problems in life, not all problems. Like. Like just remembering that there's two sides to a story goes a long ways.
[00:51:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:46] Speaker A: A lot of issues, whether you're from the same culture or not.
[00:51:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:50] Speaker A: I mean, in many ways, every little family is a little cultural its own. And so, yeah, I. I think that. I think that would be something that I would say that I've learned is just remembering that there's more than one perspective to things. And just because this is the way I see it and the way I automatically perceive something doesn't mean that everybody is perceiving it that way.
And that, I mean, that's really important to remember as teachers. But then the challenge that we sometimes have is teaching our students to remember that too, when they relate to each other.
[00:52:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, this has been. This has been good. I think the thing that has intrigued me watching your journey is the. Not only is it teaching of any kind is, you know, you watch the. Those movies. What is it? Freedom Writers is one, maybe. And then what's it called? Like, Stars on Ice. It's an Indian base. Have you ever watched that one?
[00:52:44] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that one. There's another one set in New York City. I think it's New York City.
[00:52:51] Speaker B: Well, there's my point being like they. They grasp kind of the big picture impact that you can make on somebody's life. But the reality is teaching is full of everyday, variable, boring, mundane moments where you don't at all feel like you're doing anything impactful or stressful.
[00:53:09] Speaker A: Moments where you think you're actually losing ground instead of gaining.
[00:53:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Where it feels like you're failing maybe more than being successful or something. That. Yeah.
And so that's. That's one thing that for me has been. I don't know, I would say probably. What are we, 20, 26? Probably the last four or five years has been like, there's this. This hunger. I think I spent a lot of my younger adult life dreaming of the big impact sort of thing. And there's. I mean, even some of the books in the early mid 2000s kind of framed things that way. Whereas now it's like I'm more excited about stories where, where there is that kind of faith, that long faithfulness of. Of the everyday, you know, and, and they can be the type of stories that movies are made about or whatever. But what I've seen with you is not only that steady faithfulness, but also the intentional. You have read books, you've gone to conferences, you've had conversations with people that, that just continue to equip you and broaden your worldview. And you're, you know, constantly learning, kind of, I guess embodying what. Excuse me, the. What you said about you always have more to learn. And, and I think that's a crucial piece of loving people. Well, is like realizing you need Christ too, but then also, even in a more of a philosophical sense, you. You always need to be learning things and I can't.
[00:54:38] Speaker A: I think another thing that I, when I was thinking about this today, wrote down, is that I can't speak definitively on. On what I haven't experienced.
[00:54:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:54:46] Speaker A: And so being cautious about what I say about how another culture is or even about what the right thing to do is in a situation.
[00:54:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:54:55] Speaker A: I think I've just learned over, over the last 10 years that I just need to be a little bit careful with that like that because I. I don't know, I haven't walked their shoes in their shoes. And if I had, I'd probably be doing very similar things.
[00:55:11] Speaker B: Like something said. Yeah.
[00:55:13] Speaker A: Tweak a couple things in my life. And I'd probably be in a very similar situation because I've actually done pretty privileged. Yeah.
[00:55:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. The older I get, and I'm not terribly old yet, but the more. Whenever I sense dogma, whether it's coming from somebody else or rising up inside myself, the more it's like, ah, that's probably an area that we actually probably don't know a whole lot about. That's probably why we're dogmatic.
[00:55:38] Speaker A: I mean, I can still get pretty dogmatic about things, but.
[00:55:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:41] Speaker A: It tends to be some of these things that maybe I get dogmatic about not being dogmatic. No. I don't know.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: Well, there, I mean, there's, there's a. There's. There's a difference between being passionate about something that you come to discover and experience versus dogma where almost has this sense of like any other view or input on this is like off the table. Like you can't.
[00:56:05] Speaker A: That's true. Yeah.
[00:56:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Anyways, thanks for taking the time to talk about it and share, Sam.
