Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:20 Hello friends, welcome back to unfeigned Christianity, where we are reconciling human experiences with God, so that we can love from pure heart, a good conscience and a sincere faith. Have you ever had one of those moments where you put a lot of work into something and you thought you did really well with it, you realized the lost all the work that you had. I recorded about an hour's worth of podcast here and thought it was really good Only to discover that I lost it all. So in a restart here and get going for you guys, I am doing something different today. And this week I've taken a pause from the interviews we've had about four interviews so far, and if you haven't gotten a chance to look at them, I interviewed two profs of mines, friends of mine,
Speaker 1 00:01:19 Um, looked at how to read the Bible. How should Christians think about same-sex attraction interviewed Lucy Kinzinger and your book turtle heart. Then most recently, what is the mark of the beast? In some eschatology, you get a ticket, a break from that, and look at some questions and comments that have come in concerning race and particularly critical race theory. If you follow along on the written portion of my blog, you will remember or have noticed that last fall, I started a series called how should Christians process critical race theory. And I had hoped to have it done before the new year, but I did not get it done before the new year. And so now I'm coming back to wrapping it up. There's 20, 22 articles in the series and I didn't get it done before the new year. And then I wanted to, uh, launch the course, finding my place in God's story and kind of looking at how to study the Bible.
Speaker 1 00:02:19 So that became a priority. And, and then, um, now we're focusing, I've published, I think two articles, uh, in the series in February. And hopefully this month in March, we will get it wrapped up, but there's been some comments that came in and some questions that I wanted to step back and look at more directly before diving into that. However, I want to tell you about the next deep dive essay that I'm going to be publishing for patron members for $10 a month. Uh, members of untamed Christianity get expanded versions of our podcasts interviews as well as two deep dive essays a month. The last one we did was about deconstruction. Is it destructive? And how should we think about deconstruction? And this one is about what's the big deal about the head covering or particularly a first Corinthians 11. And so I, uh, this is one of the most requested topics that I've had in the last seven years of blogging writing at least one, maybe three or four a year.
Speaker 1 00:03:28 People wondering, obviously most of my audience comes from conservative Anabaptists background. And so the practice of women covering their heads, men not covering their heads is, is typical. We've, we've seen that as, uh, important for Christians even today to, to apply in some way, shape or form. So it's, it's common. People have the question it's kind of weird in our culture today. It's, it's not normal. Uh, what's interesting is in the, in the day of Paul's culture, it was actually the, the most provocative thing that he said in that passage is probably that men should not cover their head cause it was normal for women to cover their head. And it was also normal for men to have some kind of covering over their head. So the fact that Paul was saying, men should not cover their head is almost, uh, exposing a, a responsibility that men have before God, before Jesus.
Speaker 1 00:04:22 And that's kind of a startling, probably in the cultural context would have been the most startling portion of the passage. But anyways, I have kind of avoided this it's first of all, there's, there's different things. There's other issues of biblical interpretation that I think we miss that I, that feel more important to me, um, as well as it's very easy for us as conservative Anabaptists to be so externally focused and not have the underlying theological foundation for the different practices and doctrines that we have. And I don't really want to play into a focus on externals. Nevertheless, it is the most requested even recently, uh, just a couple of months ago, I had somebody else again, bring it up. And, and if a few years ago, I actually led a study in my church looking at first Corinthians 11. So a lot of the material I have prepared already.
Speaker 1 00:05:18 And so I'm finally taking a dive into it. And if you're a member, you can, you can access the whole thing basically, uh, for this article, a lot of articles I write, I like to be a little more artistic, um, try to agitate the problem through some questions or, or examples or telling a story or something. And then as I pull you in, then we start fleshing out. Like what, what was the text Sayer or what is my point in this as, as the author or whatever for this article I'm actually going to lay out to begin with and anybody could see this for free actually probably it'll, it'll be the portion that you get before you have to join the membership. I'm just going to lay out my premise of what I believe is the most biblically faithful understanding of first Corinthians 11 one through 16, at least at this portion, I'm sure I will continue to learn a lot in and revisit this passage over and over again in life.
Speaker 1 00:06:16 But, um, there's a few few components and I'll, I'll be, I'll share all of these with you. I want to share two of them just to kind of tease you a little bit, what this is going to look like. Um, as we approach first Corinthians 11, and try to develop a, an interpretation of this passage, I think it's important that we understand that throughout the biblical narrative, God instructs even commands his people to practice certain traditions or to have certain rituals for the sake of remembering what he has done for them in them and through them and kind of to bookend examples of this is when Israel crosses the red sea, God tells Moses to set up stones so that when you pass by and your children wonder, what are those stones for? Then you had the opportunity to tell them and rehearse the story with them.
Speaker 1 00:07:12 Another example is later on in first Corinthians, the second half of first Corinthians 11, Paul talks about the, the Lord's supper and the, the, the way this is not only is it a participation in, and kind of a posturing of our hearts to participate in the suffering and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but it also serves as a reminder of our place in Christ and what Christ has done for us. So it's, it's a tradition. The reason I bring up tradition is because first Corinthians begins with Paul praising the current I'm sorry, first Corinthians 11, that chapter 11 begins with Paul, praising them for remembering the traditions, practicing traditions that he had. He had exhorted them or taught them to do. So there's something about traditions that is significant has needs to have some bearing on our understanding of how we interpret this passage. And we, we in the west, we have this slightly disillusioning relationship with traditions.
Speaker 1 00:08:16 If you're like me, it feels kind of stifling. It's like a tradition, like, you know, we need, we don't do things for tradition, but, but throughout the ancient near Eastern culture, tradition is normative. And throughout the biblical message, there's all kinds of traditions that God instruction even commands the people to do for the sake of remembering God and fellowshipping with God. I think of the feasts, the different feasts that God lays out in the law for remembering the, the things that he has done for them or the Passover is a tradition. It's a ritual to keep, uh, I think of the year of Jubilee. It's, you've been delivered out of Egypt and you are no longer slaves. You've been set free. So cancel the deaths of people who, who still owe you things every 49 years canceled the debts, set them free because you've been set free.
Speaker 1 00:09:08 And remember this, keep this, keep this rhythm in your life. So it's a, it's a part of the biblical message, the biblical story, and these traditions serve the purpose of reminding us of the freedom that we have in Christ. And the second thing is that throughout the biblical narrative, traditions are not prerequisites for salvation. They serve as reminders of salvation. So God does not say, if you keep a certain tradition, then I'll deliver you out of Egypt. The tradition comes as a result of being delivered out of Egypt, being delivered across the red sea, then, you know, set these stones up, create these, these pillars, these, uh, things that jar your, your, your presence right now, and cause you to reflect back on the work that God is doing has done is doing. But even if you think of the year of Jubilee, we just talked about there.
Speaker 1 00:10:10 We have no internal record within the Bible or external outside of the Bible. We have no record that Israel actually kept the year of Jubilee. I said that we're the year of Jubilee in Israel. We have no record that Israel kept it and was, was faithful to that. Um, and yet God is faithful to Israel, even though they have not kept the year of Jubilee. There's, there's other traditions that they have failed to keep, but they are not, they are still, God is still being faithful to bring about salvation in spite of them not keeping this tradition. So it's not a prerequisite for salvation. Now you wonder, okay. So then they go into exile because they didn't follow the commandments and you're right. That's true. And could it be that they went into exile because they didn't keep the year of Jubilee.
Speaker 1 00:11:01 I'm trying to think right off hand. I can't think of a passage that actually talks about that. What we do have though, is that they failed to care for the poor in their land. They took advantage of people who did not have means. Um, they did not. They did not remember God, one of the traditions or the rituals was the tide taking 10% of, of your produce to the temple. And then you have this fellowship meal with God, you and your family. And every three years you were supposed to take the, the immigrant with you and the orphans, the widows. And when they, when they failed to do that, when they weren't doing that, they were not taking care of. They were not, first of all, we're not remembering God as their God Yahweh as their guide. And then they were not taking care of the travelers among them or the orphans and widows.
Speaker 1 00:11:49 And those are the kinds of things that we see them being judged for sent into exile. And so the purpose of obedience, isn't so much for the sake of checking off that I did this feast or this ritual, the purpose of obedience is because the very act that God wants us to obey is setting a right set, helping to set a right things that have gone wrong in society. So what does that have to do with first Corinthians 11? Well, I don't think that while the head covering may be a tradition, I would understand I'll give you a little teaser here. I would understand my interpretation of first Corinthians 11 is that men not covering their head and women covering their head in some way helps the men and the women to remember their place and authority in Jesus Christ. Now, if you don't do that, does that mean you're not saved or like you don't have the power of Christ?
Speaker 1 00:12:49 No, I don't think, I think we're reading something into the text. And if you'd like to hear me explain this further, you may become a member and gain access to the deep dive essay, but that's just a little teaser of what we're going to be looking at. There's a lot more, it's, it's going to be a long essay. So, but I, I hope and trust that it's meaningful and not just powerful in giving you animal for, yes, we need to practice the head governor. No, we don't need a backside coming, but more importantly that we would discover the gospel and what it means for us as men and women who have different roles. And, and, and we, we have different, um, we are made up where the same flesh, but we have different makeups in our, you know, our psyche and who we are. And yet, and yet God has sees us both as equal image bearers, who, who, um, have our independent authority and independent access to the father, even though there is a interconnectedness in relationship and even submitting one to another and creating a structure for home life and even perhaps church life as a, there's a really large conversation.
Speaker 1 00:14:07 If you'd like to access it, become a member.
Speaker 1 00:14:31 So let's talk about critical race theory. Someone recently said made the comment on one of my threads. This horse is so dead and he clearly doesn't like the way that I'm talking about it, or even the fact that I keep talking about it. And so what, why, why does Asher keep talking about, well, it's, it's quite simple, actually. I would rather not talk about it. Um, I think critical race theory has become a distraction. I believe. Uh, I was saying that a long time ago, uh, back in 2020, I know I did in some social media conversations. I can't remember if I did in any official articles or anything, uh, made that comment, but, uh, we don't need critical race theory to address the issue of racism. At least I don't think so. I'm not convinced that we need to do there. I would have some friends who think we do, but I don't think we need critical race theory to help us parse out the issues of racism.
Speaker 1 00:15:32 And to even recognize that this is an issue that Christians should care about at the same time, the reason, the reason I'm addressing it. And the reason I'll tell I'll tell you two things, why I'm addressing it and why I spent so much time addressing it. Like, why is it a 20 some series article series? First of all, I, I, I have been studying race for racism for years. Um, my family moved from Northern Minnesota, which was primarily white, white world. I grew up as a white about this kid. Um, I D I haven't an aunt too is, is black. And my cousins are biracial, but, you know, even, even then I w we didn't have these conversations. I don't really remember having conversations with them. We were just cousins. Like, I didn't even think, I didn't even think to that maybe their experience or their world was, was somewhat different than mine until I'm getting a little ahead of myself here.
Speaker 1 00:16:39 But, uh, in 20 15, 20 16, somebody asked me to write about racism in the church. And that, that was kind of like, oh yeah, I should talk to my, talk to my relatives about it, see what their thoughts are. But yeah, I didn't, you know, in Northern Minnesota, we didn't have much, there was a Muslim family that owned a hotel and, uh, they, they were, I don't actually know what nationality they were or even what ethnicity, um, never got to know them really, but they were clearly dark. And in the, over the football season, in the fall, there would be a bunch of guys, black guys from Louisiana that would come to the, the college because it was a inexpensive college. You could get scholarships to play football. And so we would have a bunch of black youth, particularly men that would show up to play, to play football.
Speaker 1 00:17:33 Um, and so, but, but other than that, like all my friends, I played baseball for the high school. There wasn't a single non-white person on the team, um, that I can remember. I think, I think there were a decent amount of maybe native American people in the high school, but none of them played baseball. I didn't interact with them a whole lot. So when we moved to Southern California, I moved to Los Angeles and all of a sudden, um, most of the places we go, we are a minority. It, it began, it was just at the very least eye opening. Uh, we went through a missions training program in New York city and began reading books like, uh, uh, I forget the title of it. Not sure if I had it on my bookshelf here, but, uh, Paul Hiebert, his book, I think it is anthropological insights for missionaries or something like that.
Speaker 1 00:18:29 Um, when I went to ICO Institute for global opportunities as a 20 year old, and you begin talking, not only are we interacting cross-culturally, but begin talking about cross-cultural differences and all these things. And all of a sudden, I begin seeing a ethnocentric ethnocentric city and just, uh, the way that we have strong bias preference for our culture. And so I had the language of culture and cultural differences and, and all of that, but it wasn't until I was directly asked, would you write about racism in the church? I get asked to write on a number of topics and a lot of topics that kind of turned down. I just got done talking about how I've been kicking the first Corinthians 11 can down the road, but, but this definitely jumped out at me. And largely because I had had an experience of how, how cultural differences affect like relationships, not just between human beings and society, but in the church, like, it's, it affects relationships in the church.
Speaker 1 00:19:35 And, um, so I started thinking about it and the, one of the first things I did was I started talking to friends that I had, uh, whether it was my, my aunt, my cousins, um, different, uh, a handful of, of friends of color, whether they're here in Southern California, or I actually forget who all I talked to. I just started talking to talking to people and, you know, not, not wanting to be obnoxious about it, but just, just explaining that, Hey, I, you know, it's not really something I've thought a lot about before, but I, I seen how maybe there's a bigger issue here. And, and so would you, would you care to share your experience with me and obviously, um, in 2016 there were, there were enough kind of things, current events to create a natural on-ramp to like, Hey, I remember, uh, Facebook messaging with a friend after the whole D uh, I think it was Charlottesville that had happened in the debate of, of, um, actually Charlottesville was 2017.
Speaker 1 00:20:40 Wasn't it? I forget if it was 2017 or 2016, but the whole, yeah, the beta of statues turning down statues and all that, and just wondering what, what he thought of it. And we had a conversation and then he shared an article that he had written or co-authored. And so I read it and, and it was, I spent a lot of time having conversations with people. I actually didn't read a book. It's a little whatever, but I didn't read a book on racial issues until 29 18. I think, I think it was the spring of 2019 that I read my first book. I was one, uh, actually it was where, uh, I think, where do we go from here? It was the first one by Martin Luther king Jr. And then began, starting to see, you know, learn about eventually, I don't remember what order it was, but learned about jemartisby Bryan Stevenson, um, other, uh, Allie Henny in, you know, oh, I can't, I, I have no clue like what order it was, but the more, the more I read and the more I talked about it, the more people like referenced different, different, uh, people to listen to.
Speaker 1 00:21:51 And, um, and also, I should say back when I was first asked, I did a lot of listening to videos on YouTube. I remember discovering Vodi Bochum and listening to some of his conversations about it at some of his sermons. Uh, actually one of the most powerful sermons of Ephesians two that I've ever heard was by Vodi Bochum. And, um, I also discovered Candace Owens and I, I thought, wow, like she's really, quick-witted, she's smart. She's, she's good with answers. And it seemed to make sense. I remember seeing the Lariat, the infamous Larry elder video, where he debunks, uh, on Dave Rubin's podcast, he just debunks the whole data about, um, police brutality and everything just kind of makes Dave Rubin look a little stupid or foolish. And that, that actually ignited Dave Rubin's own like re-evaluation of why is he a Democrat? And you know, the rest of this history, I guess Dave Ruben is pretty, pretty staunch from reporting now, but a Trump supporter.
Speaker 1 00:22:57 But like, that was my beginnings, as I'm like looking at things outside of the conversations with friends and people that I'm having, as I'm looking at things on YouTube, it was those things that I was kind of gravitating towards and kind of whatever. Um, but then, but then I noticed that like a lot of the people I was talking with when say, like they, they said things that were quite different from the people I was watching as why like, Hmm, what's the difference. And, and w you know, one thing leads to another, as you begin to look, all of a sudden you realize, oh, you know, like Larry elder and Kennesaw, and they're very good at debunking, uh, the, the famous leftist points about police brutality, but then you, you also notice you begin to notice that they, they don't ever really talk about the data as a statistics, as a whole.
Speaker 1 00:23:59 They just kind of look at the statistics today or that year, and they can make people look really stupid. Um, because the statistics aren't so bad right now, but, um, th there there's, there there's worth having conversation about the impact. So like, things have changed. There's been a lot of change, right. Uh, the police brutality isn't near, like it was back in the sixties or the fifties, um, even more recently. And so, yeah, we can look at that and we can emphasize that. But the one thing that Larry elder and Candice Owens don't talk about, or Vodi <inaudible> is the power of generational impact on people. And the way that, that just creates defaults, whether, whether it's with white people, white police, or in black people, and things escalate so quickly, because there's been such a history that yes, it's going to take years and years and years to, to read, learn to re orient.
Speaker 1 00:25:04 Um, and so, so I just noticed that there were certain aspects of the conversation that they weren't ever bringing up. And, um, so that, that led me to like exploring other voices and learning broader perspectives in, in having more conversations on this. And so the beginning of 2020, I had decided that this was the year, I believe already in 2016, it was 2017 to 2016. One of those years, I began maybe one article a year, addressing issues of race. I think the first thing I did was shared, it was an article I published, but it basically just link to another article that a friend of mine had written just about his own experience. And, and I, I kind of thought was just like, you know, this is one of those topics. I'm not black. I don't have this experience. And so I think it is good to just try to listen and promote, uh, firsthand accounts, you know, of, of what it's like, rather than the last thing we need is more white people saying how to solve racism.
Speaker 1 00:26:19 Um, I'm not saying that white people don't have anything to add. I think white people are very much a part. Uh, we, we were a part of creating the problem is as far as our people. And so we are now a part of solving the problem, but I think, uh, as you, as you look back throughout history, as you read, you realize there's a lot of things where white people were saying, you know, black people were saying, we need this Martin Luther king Jr. Was setting forth, like this is what we need. Well, then there's certain civil rights laws that are put in place that white people say, well, this is what we're going to do. This is what, this is what you actually need. Some of them maybe were helpful. Others were not so helpful and actually maybe perpetuated some of the problems. And so I just think it's, it's common sense to just kind of pause and be like, Hey, this, this, we are not the ones feeling the hurt and the prejudice.
Speaker 1 00:27:23 I think it's worth hearing from the ones who do in order to more accurately pinpoint what the problem is and how to move forward. So that was kind of my posture. But then after a couple of years of that, I realized that it might actually take me as a white person. And especially with the platform that I had as a blog in a blog writing about it, uh, as an ally, as a, you know, rather than subjecting, uh, someone of color who might readers may end up just simply arguing with and not really actually listening or respecting that well, um, so better to, uh, just receive the flack or whatever myself, I guess. And so in the beginning of 2020, I had outlined a series that I was going to walk through, set, set forth a biblical understanding of justice, why this matters, like why issues of race should matter to Christians, according to the Bible. And then look more specifically at some, at some issues that, uh, we face in our current setting here in America. And I had a couple of interviews lined up. I even, I believe I published a couple of those interviews, but I did not get it. I was planning to do at the end of April. I didn't get it done the end of April. So I bumped it to me. And in that time, the news of the whole a Arbery case comes out. And then a few weeks later, George Floyd is killed.
Speaker 1 00:29:03 And I just remember seeing one of my friends just, just post on Facebook, he's like, now, will you listen? Like now, will you take this seriously? And so I kind of scrapped the whole series. I was like, yes, like now they don't need to hear from me. Right? Like here's some, here's very graphic examples of this. And so, um, most of 2020 was spent just like appealing to my audience to listen to some of these other voices and to ponder and consider why these things are happening. Why are there riots happening? Um, a lot of people ended up thinking because I was, I was trying to point out that there's problems that causing these riots, people ended up thinking I was condoning or supporting the riots. I started getting, uh, people saying, you're, you're just buying into CRT. You're just buying into critical race theory.
Speaker 1 00:29:51 And I was like, what's CRT, like what's critical ratio. I have no clue what you're talking about. And, um, and so that led me to, first of all, explore what critical race theory is. Uh, I spent about 15 to 16, 16 months studying it and just diving into it, trying to get a handle on it myself. And then I, I also noticed that, and then I also was having people send me messages like, Hey, what do you think of, of critical race theory? And that, that was most of 2020. I was being accused of buying into critical race theory. It was 2021 where I started getting a lot of people like, Hey, what do you think of critical race theory? Even, even some friends of ours who, who are black. One time we were having lunch with them. And, and they, they looked at me and said, what, what do you make of critical race theory?
Speaker 1 00:30:46 And I just wish like, wow, like, I, I wish so many people who are sitting here, like trying to focus on CRT and w w would have been able to sit there and see that and witness that like here, like people, people of color and some people will be bothered. Why do you say people of color? Well, I say people of color because I have a lot of friends who are of different color, different ethnicities. I have a Mexican friends, Guatemalan friends, also authority and friends. I have friends from Asia. I have friends from who are immigrants from Africa and friends who are immigrants from the Caribbean. I have friends who are black, who grew up in America. I have, uh, native American friends I have. And, um, I'm speaking like when, when I say that, when I talk about mentioned people of color, I'm saying I'm talking about something that is generally true, that I generally something I hear from these friends.
Speaker 1 00:31:43 Yeah. They all have unique stories, different perspectives. They don't even all agree with each other all the time. No people group is a monolith there. Uh, there's, there's a lot of diversity and nuance to it all, but, but for the most part, um, like my friends of color did not need critical race theory to realize, uh, there's racism. They were experiencing it. They were experiencing the prejudice in their own life. And now everybody, especially white conservative Christians are all focused on CRT. And they're trying to navigate that. Like, they're trying to say, Hey, let's look at racism and you know, how can the church, how, how can we be better about this? How can we have conversations about how to deal with racism? And, and they're bumping into people in the church St. Dollars is just critical. Race theory is like, w w no, uh, I don't know what critical race theory is, but I know that there's racism here.
Speaker 1 00:32:42 Right? And so it was shutting down the conversation. And, um, so that was, that was burdening me kind of creating a concern. But then I started noticing people, the conversations that people had in evaluating critical race theory, and even some, with even some sermons that are, were being taught over the pulpit eight didn't, I, it, to me, it didn't sound like they had even read authors of critical race theory. Um, it sounded more like maybe they had read Vodi Bochum, or maybe they had watched a Neil Shen V video or something. And, um, had from there kind of developed a caricature of what critical race theory stands for and agreed with them that this is wrong. This is evil. And so then they develop their message or their conversation about it based on that without ever going to primary source material. And the, the, the primary source material are gonna be books like critical race theory, the cutting edge it's over 800 pages long that's most of what I've read on critical race theory has come out of there.
Speaker 1 00:33:52 It's, uh, it's just a collection of essays, journal articles from professors and, uh, liars and sociologists who were in the era post civil rights era, where there were laws that were developed that were supposed to keep, uh, build some equity, give more opportunity for, for people of color, to be able to be enrolled at, uh, prestigious universities or, or to get jobs or get home loans. Um, why, why were they still being rejected? Why was there still such disparity between, uh, the white family and the black family, um, as it concerns as it relates to some of these issues. And so they, they begin theorizing and writing about this and, and it, it evolves like from the first essay or article journal article that was written and analyzed about this to, you know, for several decades, they're writing about this and, and trying to theorize about it.
Speaker 1 00:35:01 And so guys like Derek bell, Richard Delgado genes define chick, uh, Kimberly Crenshaw, um, and others, like those are all names of people who are considered relatively, um, the architects of CRT. And I was seeing that a lot of the discourse in our, my circles, conservative white Anabaptist circles lacked any interaction with the actual writings of CRT. And just, and, and so it was from that that led me to be like, Hey, I think it could be worth taking time to address this. Head-on now there's a reason that I'm spending almost 22 articles to go through this series, if you would like to access the series, uh, just go to Ashley whitmer.com. Um, the last one I published at this point is, uh, I forget the title of it, but you should see it in the, uh, should see CRT in the, in the title, just click on it.
Speaker 1 00:36:05 And within any of the articles, you'll be able to access to a whole series a there's a link in the article. And if you go to the very first one, which is ask me anything, how should we process critical race theory? You'll see the outline of the whole series from the very beginning. This is where I've been intending to go. This has been what I've been intending to write on. So if you're following this series in you, you have been following the series, and yet you're tired of me addressing this issue. Well, you knew from the beginning that I was going to be going to these places. Um, so, so it's not like I'm just perpetually, uh, beating a dead horse. Um, but rather each of these articles understand that they are introductions to conversations that are necessary to have for Christians to rightfully process critical race theory.
Speaker 1 00:37:01 This is a very large discussion. I think <inaudible> has four core tenants of critical race theory. I am not sure where he gets those four core tenets. Uh, to my knowledge, there are not four core tenets. Yes, there are core tenets. Uh, intersectionality is, is an aspect that is explored, but there's many essays looking at the nature and role of intersectionality. Um, storytelling is, is, uh, is a piece that's talked about it, but there's many essays that look at what is meant by that and, and how, how to tell accurate stories and so forth. So if you're reading Vodi baka and he, he outlines these and maybe gives, uh, the outline in a chapter and you like runs over each of these points was pretty, pretty, uh, reduced view of, of what is, what these tenants stand for. Furthermore, there's more tenants like, you know, Y Y stick with, for like, there's, we could say there's eight, uh, themes, or, or focuses of critical race theory.
Speaker 1 00:38:05 And there's probably going to become more, has people dive in a little deeper and look at various elements that play into it. And just a note on Vodi Viacom. Um, my number one concern with him is that he does not represent his, that he does not represent the people he disagrees with very well. Um, if at all, like he, he doesn't really interact with critical race theorists at all. Um, he uses kind of uses some short quotes of them. And then, uh, then he goes on to say what that means, but, but if you actually go and read the critical race series, you'll see the quote, but then there's no place that would give the indication. That's what it means. He's actually facing some allegations of false attribution, um, because he makes Richard Delgado out to be saying something that he's not like Richard Delgado, doesn't say.
Speaker 1 00:38:57 And so I, I lose some respect and credibility when I see authors doing that, when I see people projecting on, uh, value judgments of what you think they're saying, well, this is, it's definitely not very thorough analysis, kind of sloppy, but it's even unethical in my opinion, I think it is like, we, it, why do we have to create something a caricature? Why not just work on their terms? If there is something really concerning let's work on their terms. And let's, let's look at that. Let's, let's, let's walk through that. But these, these articles in this Siri are just introductions to the different conversations that I think are necessary. If we're going to process critical race theory, I have 22 articles. Maybe there's, maybe there's really only 16 conversations. Maybe there's 34 conversations. Like this is just from, from the, from the process that I have done.
Speaker 1 00:39:59 Um, I think these are, are important components and some of them are challenges to us. Uh, like first of all, I think we should begin with establishing a biblical theology of justice. Like if a lot of people want to begin their critique of CRT with the origins of CRT, but that's the, that's the, that's not the right place. The right place is to establish what is a biblical theology of justice. Uh, if we're going to say that CRT is an unbiblical worldview or some Christian heresy that should be rejected outright, then we better have a robust understanding of what is a biblical theology of justice or what is a biblical theology of power dynamics in relationships or in society. So that, so that we can rightfully say like, Hey, look, this is very contrary to the biblical narrative. Um, but I haven't seen anybody really do that.
Speaker 1 00:40:56 And so in, in this series, I begin by developing a biblical theology of creation, sin and justice. That's an introduction. I think the articles over 4,000 words, maybe 5,000, but, um, those are in depth topics that could be books on their own are books. People have written books on them, but that's the place to start. That's where we need to start. If you're sitting down, if you're a, if you're a pastor and you're sitting down to prepare a sermon, if you're in a conversation with someone, if you're a parent trying to talk with someone, you've got to start by developing what is a biblical theology on justice? What is a biblical theology of oppression? How do we understand, uh, the dynamics of abuse and how does the Bible discuss it? And if, if you think that the Bible doesn't, then I would just gently suggest, um, you need, need to read more of your Bible because there's a lot of that.
Speaker 1 00:41:52 Yeah. The, the Torah is full of, of setting forth a vision for how to make things, right. It's not, um, when you look at, when you look at what happens, if you take an ox and the oxidize in and use stolen the ox and the oxidize, or even just stolen the ox, the, the, the solution to that laid out in scripture is not that you just forgive. So a lot of people want to say that that justice is forgiveness. It's the forgiveness of Jesus on the cross? Well, yes, justice, that's a key component to justice. The fact that Jesus has liberated us from the bondage of sin and the, the, the path for liberation was through God forgiving us. And, um, that included canceling of debts that included, uh, restoring our place with him, even though we were sinful people. And it also included making us right in, in, through the holy spirit, transforming us into people who now function, rightly when you think of Paul in Romans five, where he talks about, um, you're not justified by faith with God.
Speaker 1 00:43:07 Well, the, the, the very term justified means we are now set a right. We are now rightly relating. Um, I think it's, I was going to say it's in German, but I don't know German. So I'm not going to say this, but I have a friend who tells a story about a German friend of his who fixed a lawn mower. It wasn't working well and you fix the lawnmower. And then they finally got at work and pulled the rope and the motor started and the engine was purring, good, like lawnmower should. And he shouted justified. And that's a very good depiction of justice. What it means to be justified for justice to be completed is there is a creation. It was good. Something happened that injustice happens. There's brokenness, we're dominating over one another there's there's, um, violating each other, violating each other's dignity as image bearers of God.
Speaker 1 00:44:00 And then justice is not just the con uh, dealing with the consequences and the immediate punishment that is necessary to create separation, to bring about, um, healing and in the process of, uh, protection for the victim, uh, from the perpetrator. Yes, that's a part of justice, but even more so justice is setting a right, so that the victim is whole and healthy and cared for. And the one who perpetrated is also whole healthy, no longer functioning out of that abuse out of that oppression, um, that is justice. That's what justice is. And so, uh, when you, when we look at the Torah and you steal an ox, you don't just like, forgive the person, but you, you, you don't just return the ox. You're supposed to actually pay extra. Like you do more for the misuse of time loss. If the ox was stolen. I mean, if the ox died, you, you get a new ox, you pay the fee so that this person can, can go get a good new ox.
Speaker 1 00:45:11 Um, and that's just one example of many places in scripture where we have this form of, okay, there's been a violation, and yes, there needs to be forgiveness in order to be able to continue relating with each other. But along with forgiveness, there's also needs to be restored things being made, right. And then functioning rightly again, this book by Catherine Claire Larson, as we forgive, uh, kind of walks through, uh, the, the reintegration of the Hutus and Tutsis after the Rwanda genocide, when those who had committed, the genocide were released, there were so many of them in the prisons and the prisons were kind of becoming overrun. They needed to just have a mass release of these people or what what's going to happen. Like, are we gonna have the whole conflict all over again? And so they, uh, Rwanda went through a very intentional process of, of trust rehabilitation, and, um, just kind of processing the forgiveness and even, um, creating, uh, small groups, uh, places where, where they could talk through the pain that the people who were perpetrators would, would see the pain and the people who were victims would have the opportunity to talk about the pain and, and to even share their feelings about these people, like directly at them, but th but a safe place that was created the purpose was to build trust and also to help the perpetrators now function rightly in society so that we don't just continue.
Speaker 1 00:46:42 This tribalism is tribal fighting. It's a, it's a fascinating read, but this is her whole point is that, um, biblical theology or biblical justice is not just putting the law breakers behind bars. That's kind of what we think about in America. That's an aspect of it, the punishment for the wrong doom, but true biblical justice is when the law breakers are out and functioning rightly in society. And they're not breaking the law. If we're going to talk about biblical justice, you're going to abide by the law of Christ, right? The law of God and the victims are fine, are, have places to heal and find wholeness. And a part of that is going to be forgiveness, right? A perpetrator learning how to rightly relate to people so that they're not abusing them anymore. Doesn't really do anything for the victim, right? The victim still has to go through a process of forgiveness.
Speaker 1 00:47:41 If they're going to be able to rightly relate with the perpetrator again, or, or people who resemble the perpetrator. So justice is a complex thing, and there's many dynamics to it. And we've got to have a robust theology of justice before we start trying to critique whether it's critical race theory or whatever random theory we're going to receive 10 to 20 years from now, uh, current events, as we, as we try to grapple with like, where, how should Christians think about this? How should Christians navigate this? And so I start there, we start there, we start with an introduction at that. We look at, uh, the way, uh, like the Bible demonstrates how sin manifests itself in humanity by dominating over one another. So power dynamics, that's, that's not unbiblical like that's, the Bible is processing power dynamics. That's, that's why we see so much, um, emphasis on how men should rightly treat wives. And you don't have a lot of emphasis on what wives should do because the power dynamics of the day was largely Patriot patriarchal society. And so, um, you know, in the Torah, it talks about the husband who takes a wife and then neglects her, that wife should be free to go. And, and she's free to, to remarry. She's free to find another husband, the husband, she is no longer bound to her husband because he has neglected her.
Speaker 1 00:49:15 There's no passage that references. What if a wife neglects the husband? Why is that? While the husband holds the power in that relationship, in that dynamic. Um, and so I'm just touching on just very little aspects of, of these conversations. This, this is very common throughout you. You look at Paul's, uh, appeal to finally him and to, to take own SMS back. And in the book of Philemon, we, we see that Paul wants an SMS to, to return back to honor honor filing, because that's the way that that's how justice is gonna be served is when you are no longer in conflict with, by Lehman, but you are able to honor him. You're able to respect him as a brother, but Paul's exhortation to find Lehman is that you take ons and his back, and you value him as a brother no longer as a servant.
Speaker 1 00:50:16 Um, so, so there's this reversal of power dynamics all throughout the new Testament. Jesus said, if you want to be the leader, you will serve, you will become the least of these. So, so the way of the kingdom is the way of a very much taking into account power dynamics and understanding the way of the cross is a way of, of offloading power and not wielding power for myself, but wielding power for the benefit of others, or even just giving power and submitting to other people. Um, but we, we have in the Proverbs talking about speaking up for the oppressed, caring for the oppressed, speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves. Um, so, so th there's all kinds of aspects of social dynamics that are very connected with biblical justice, very connected to the gospel. And so if, if we're going to throw at each other, that CRT is unbiblical, we need to know have a robust explanation of what is biblical analysis of power dynamics.
Speaker 1 00:51:26 What is biblical theology of justice of oppression, and where specifically is CRT going wrong? And, and one of my biggest concerns would be most people who say CRT is unbiblical, either project they'll, they'll take a quote from a CRT author and then say, this is what it means, but that's not inherently derived from the writing, or they won't even like, they'll just say, um, you know, I, I feel like they're making a guilty people into, into, uh, whatever. Usually they don't really say it. It's just something about they're, they're creating guilt or causing guilt. And, um, and even that it's like, well, okay, so what specifically is biblical about that? Because if there's something sinful happening, we should feel guilty about that. Um, some, so, so one of the best comments, best concerns that I have seen as for the air or the flaw of critical race theory is some of the examples that we have of people who are trying to, to do diversity training or look at history and end up creating, uh, making white youth or white kids feel like they are oppressors simply because they are a white person.
Speaker 1 00:52:55 If I'm hearing people correctly. I think that's, that's one of the, perhaps the biggest concern that people have with critical race theory is that somehow it teaches that if you are born white, you are automatically racist and you are an oppressor just because you're white. My response to that is that if that is what is being taught, that is wrong. You're right. That's not biblical. That is unbiblical. If there is anybody teaching that, just because you're white, that somehow you're automatically an oppressor that automatically you're evil, that's wrong. But my question is where is that being taught? That's not in the writings of Derek bell, Richard Delgado. I hadn't seen it. I I'm not read all their stuff. They've written a lot. And, and I've really quite frankly, probably just, um, scratched the surface, but I would like to see, cause I, a lot of people who are perpetuating this notion that somehow there, there, uh, critical race theory is inherently evil.
Speaker 1 00:54:09 It's a, it's a w unbiblical worldview as a Christian heresy. You don't have anything to do with it. As I talk with these people, I realize they themselves have not really read much of critical race theory. So I'm quite certain, I've read more than them. So I'm trying to figure out where they're getting it. Um, they'll share articles like Vodi Bochum or people who kind of share Vodi bottom's perspective or perpetuate some of his ideas. And, and my concern is that voting is not accurately representing critical race theory. Like he's, he's being very sweeping in his remarks. He even goes so far as to name fellow Christians, Tim Keller, David Platt, Johnny. Oh, from Atlanta. I'm not sure how to say his last name, but he's a pastor in Atlanta to bet on what belly jemartisby he names he named some of these people and says they have him braced critical race theory, but then he never interacts with the things that they say he does.
Speaker 1 00:55:11 There, there is one interview with jemartisby. I think it is. Or maybe John Johnny. Oh, he left the SPC, his jurors left the SPC. I think he shares like some quotes from the podcast episode. And, and it, it sounds kind of bad, I guess, a little bit from what he shares. But I, I read that I was, I was actually listening to it on the audio version and I was on a jog. I was like, I listened to that interview when it went live, that was summer of 20, 20, so a year and a half ago or whatever. And I listened to that interview is like, whoa, Vodi there was a way you just made it sound like that is not how that interview went. It was not a very accurate depiction of that interview. And so, um, the, the question that I wish people would be asking is why, why does jemartisby see what he does?
Speaker 1 00:56:03 Why does Tim Keller say what he does? Why does Asher Whitman? I'm not putting, I don't mean to put myself on that level, but I I've had just recently I had somebody says, I can tell who you listen to. What? Where do you get your news? Because you perpetuate left his talking points. He didn't ask. He didn't, he didn't. He never asked like, Hey, what news do you get to eat? He never asked for, Hey, why do you say this? Why do you talk about it in this way? Um, but he just made that statement, that projection that he somehow can tell me, but he doesn't, he doesn't know because I don't listen to MSNBC. I don't listen to CNN that, um, if, if I'm researching something and wanting to figure out, okay, so what are the liberals saying about this? What are the right when you're saying about this?
Speaker 1 00:56:49 I'll, I'll go to those news networks to get my, to get a pulse on what things are saying. But my default place for news is a dispatch podcast. And that's a conservative network, like that's that's Republicans. And that whole point of leftist talking points, um, it's, it's intriguing to me. There's, there's three things that people in the last six months people have commented on. Like, you just, you perpetuate these leftist talking points without evaluating, uh, their truthfulness or whatever. And then I'll be, I'll be like, what, what left his talking points? And it usually comes down to, uh, how I talk about politics and particularly that I'm critical of Trump and how I talk about COVID and then how I talk about racial issues. And it's intriguing to me because I don't get, like, I consume far more conservative media and, and the, the media that I listened to for just kind of passive taking, like, getting up to speed on things is conservative.
Speaker 1 00:57:50 It's not, it's not pro-Trump. And I think, I think sometimes it exposes a little bit more about some people that maybe they're in a far right or pro-Trump media when, when, just because I'm critical of them, they assume that I'm speaking of leftist talking point, I had somebody share a, um, share a, something from Robert Kennedy about the vaccine and this like, you know, to them I'm deceived and, and I'm just left us and I'm like, wait a second. Like, do you know Robert Kennedy? Maybe Robert Kennedy is right, but I have, I have family members. I have a lot of friends. I know people, doctors in Anabaptist circles, people like Dr. John Waldron, Dr. Hans Burkholder, his sister Bethany. Berkholder, I'm not sure if she's a doctor, but maybe a nurse practitioner or something. Nolan Viler um, man, there's there's, I've got two siblings that are Ahrens.
Speaker 1 00:58:49 My brother-in-law's a nurse. I like there there's, there's so many people that I know who are godly. People who stand for truth, who have a drastically different perspectives than Robert Kennedy on vaccines. Even if they're negative or concerned about it. Like they're not the conspiratorial type flavor that Robert Kennedy is. Why are we listening? Like, how come you sharing Robert Kennedy? Wasn't seen as pushing a, a Republican talking point or like a right talking point. But just the fact that I'm, I'm okay with the vaccine or something means that I'm a leftist. That, that doesn't make sense to me. I'm not, I'm not sure that we're even being intellectually honest about that, but what's, what's most intriguing to me about it is things like COVID and racial issues are human experiences. Since when do human experiences become political talking points as if like, how would you like to be said, oh, you're talking about abortion.
Speaker 1 00:59:56 Let's say, and you care about abortion, which is a burden and passion of mine and my wife's as well. But how would we like that to be, you know, someone to say, oh, you're just pushing a right-wing talking points. No, like that's a human experience. That's, that's a real event that's happening. Something needs to be done. And the gospel has something to say about it. So my question is, instead of projecting onto people, you're just pushing left, wing, talking points without evaluating the truth. Why not want a more natural question? B Asher. Why, why do you talk about this? Why do you see this as important? Oh, okay. Ashley, you've listened to Larry elder Canada zones. Vodi Bochum. Why? Why don't you say things like them? Why do you say things more instead? Like jemartisby Bryan Stevenson, Latasha, Mortenson, uh, Allie Henny. Why aren't you afraid of, why don't you think it's threatening?
Speaker 1 01:00:56 Why, why is CRT not threatening instead of projecting on that? Somehow I'm just bought into a leftist mindset or embrace CRT. Like what, why is it in light of what you've read and the conversations you've had? Why is it you're coming out here? Um, because it's not because of the news sources that I listened to. It's not because I'm not evaluating the truthfulness. And I have tried to communicate this in some of my private dialogues with, with some people. And it doesn't seem to always be received very well, but I, I care about racial issues. And I think the church needs to address racism because it is central to the gospel. Ephesians two lays out how the Gentiles Paul says in, in two 11 through 22, he's, he's talking about how, and I'm going to, in, in, in next week's podcast, I'm going to walk through a fusions two and three, a little bit more in depth, but just to touch on it a little bit here, he talks about how the Gentiles were once aliens, strangers to the common wealth of Israel.
Speaker 1 01:02:11 And there's. So it's not just that they were strangers to the inheritance is not just that they were strangers to the promise. It's not just that they were strangers to God. They were strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel. And if you read, um, Ephesians one and into verse two, you see that Paul is pulling on Ephesians. One begins, talks about blessing. You are blessed in the anointed. Who has you is who has been the blessing to all peoples from before the foundation of the world. And God had ordained that Jesus, the anointed would bless all peoples and that all peoples would be United in him. This is language, this is Abrahamic language. Paul is harking back to the promise blessing. And this blessing is not just a fact that we're going to be resurrected when we die. That we're going to be a part of the restorative renewed, create new creation, a new Jerusalem, but there is something right now that people receive as a blessing when they are citizens of the Commonwealth of Israel.
Speaker 1 01:03:11 Uh, we, we already looked at some of this, but when you're violated within the Commonwealth of Israel, that that is supposed to be made, right? Um, within the Commonwealth of Israel, the corners of your fields, they're supposed to be left for those who are poor within the Commonwealth of Israel. If, if you're a traveler, you're an immigrant or you're an orphan or a widow, you're supposed to be brought to the temple with people to have this fellowship meal with, with God. And, and there's, there's all kinds of social dynamics of caring for each other within society. That is, that is right. It's rightly ordered relation relationships relating with God and with each other. And that's a part of this blessing. Yes. It includes the fact that I'm, I'm now rightly positioned with God as Paul talks about in the beginning part of well verse, uh, chapter one, as well as chapter two of Ephesians.
Speaker 1 01:04:03 But, but it, it also includes that there is something socio-economic that I'm now participating in. I'm receiving a blessing too. Uh, you look at Jesus when he came and he showed up and talked and, and he's telling his disciples how to live with each other, turn the other cheek. Like if somebody takes your coat, give them your cloak. Also, if you're throwing a, a banquet for somebody, like don't just throw the banquet for people who can throw a banquet for you throw a banquet for the poor, the orphan, the one that can't repay you, anything like gather the least of these and celebrate with them like in the kingdom of God is a socio-economic blessing that is experienced in realized along with the theological reality and reorientation that Gentiles and Jews are now brought together and their one new humanity. And Paul goes on in verse 15 to talk about how the wall of hostility is torn down.
Speaker 1 01:05:02 Jesus has put the guests put to death. This hostility and, and Jew and Gentile are being created in one. So that together they are reconciled to God and they become a dwelling place for the holy spirit. And that in this unity of a diverse body who are mutually experiencing the blessing and inheritance of God, that is testifying to the authorities in the heavenly places of the wisdom of God. So, you know, if you know anything about Ephesians, Ephesians is an extremely diverse church. The church of Ephesus, not only it was the largest city in Asia minor at the time, it was a trade port. It was kind of the melting pot of society. Very wicked, uh, horrible things were going on, not just sexual immorality, idolatry, black magic, but it was this place of intense cultural diversity. And we see in the book of Ephesians that there are Jews versus Gentile, ethnic conflict going on, but there's also, it seems, uh, ethnic conflict going on simply between Gentile ethnicities as well.
Speaker 1 01:06:11 And it would make sense. There, there were many people that were there. Would've been people from the east traveling in to the port of Ephesus. There would've been people from the west who came in are probably people, even from Africa coming up into, into the, the Asia minor through the Mediterranean there's many, many culturals melting together cultures, nothing together. And if, if we're going to talk, if the moment that I talk about racial issues or cultural issues and the, the importance of, of living in unity, amid diversity, which is what Ephesians is all about. If I'm going to get pegged as being embracing CRT, then we need to rightfully evaluate, okay. So if you say the onus is on you, if you say that CRT is a heresy and something to be rejected. And the moment I talk about power dynamics, and I use things like white privilege or whiteness to discuss these power dynamics, the onus is on you.
Speaker 1 01:07:17 If you want to say, oh, Asher, don't listen to him. He's bought into critical race theory. The emphasis is on you for two things. Either you need to show how this is unbiblical, or you need to create new language that can be commonly absorbed by society. So we can talk about these issues in a shared space and know what each other means by this. But you don't get to just say, ah, you've embraced CRT, reject you or reject CRT as a whole. How, how is CRT on biblical? How is CRT a heresy? Just to wrap this up, I'm going to, I'm going to spend more time next week looking at Ephesians two and three. But to wrap this up today, let's look at some of the concern about, uh, the way it creates guilt, the way it makes people feel, just because you're white, you're, you're, uh, an oppressor.
Speaker 1 01:08:12 There are people out there who want to say no. Well, like there was one conversation that I was having with someone who said, okay, I think, I think we're talking about something different. Like you're talking about the writings of CRT, but what about the Loudon county situation? Like, I don't think this should be happening in school and this is what the most people can think of as CRT. I would, if, if I can say this gently, it's what most white people think of as CRT. Um, CRT has become a catch all phrase for all these different things. Anybody talking about racism today is CRT talking about the racial or, or the racial origins of the founding of America that CRT? Well, sure. I think we have CRT to thank Tor for wanting to bring up, uh, the Oklahoma, Oklahoma city bomb or a massacre that happened.
Speaker 1 01:09:12 Like that's not taught in very many, uh, curriculums, and, and that needs to be tied. CRT wants these things taught faithfully so that, you know, children are aware of the whole history, but I think we need to work on its terms. Okay. We need to work on CRTs terms. We can't just, we can't just place like, oh, these, these misuses, um, making people feel bad for being white. That's a result of CRT. Correlation does not equal causation. And if it happens, if CRT suggests that there are, that there's value in, in diversity training and then in the middle of a diversity training class, something horrible happens that doesn't necessarily mean it has to do with the thing that said there's value in diversity training. If that's the case, then we need to reevaluate church period. Uh, we, we believe that the church is the body of Christ, but there's a lot of abuse.
Speaker 1 01:10:14 There's a lot of sexual abuse that has happened at church. There's a lot of abuse that has happened in church buildings. I know stories personally of things that went on in a church building. And so the very pro you know, the fact that we were at a church then than we should, you know, have nothing to do with the Christian faith, because it says to have church and to meet together. And when people met together, then there was this abusive thing that happened. So just because it's correlating does not inherently mean cot causing. Um, so let's, let's work on CRTs terms. Let's define CRT. It's not, it's not a neat definition. It's a whole conversation. It takes there's, there's many conversations to have as you process critical research, but let's work on their terms. Let's not project meaning, and let's not just throw like something.
Speaker 1 01:11:03 I'm not sure what camp to put it in. So I'm just going to put it in CRT camp. No, let's keep that out. And let's say, okay, here's this issue that is concerning. And let's just let it at that and talk about that being concerned. Let's see. We can evaluate, I'm not trying to shut you down. When I say show me where CRT teaches that being white means you're an oppressor. I don't mean to shut you down. I'm genuinely saying I don't see it. I'm not sure where that is. Generally what I've read of CRT. A lot of the stuff is fairly self-evident, it's not that dramatic or that radical. I think some of their claims lack, they talk about, um, some of the disparities that, that, um, happen between, well, either income inequality, or even, um, jobs and being accepted into universities. And they don't really give a lot of data to back up to show that.
Speaker 1 01:12:00 And so I like, to me, I don't find it. I don't find the writings like super robust interaction. I actually think this book is a really good book, uh, by the Thomas soul to understand, uh, discrimination and disparities, a little more in depth. A lot of people will want to quote Thomas Sol because like, he, he doesn't say the typical black mantra. He says things that sound a little more palatable to white people. Well, I think, I just think Thomas soul has a far more robust data backed evaluation of disparities and discrimination. So don't use Thomas soul to try to say that, oh, CRT is evil, rather use Thomas soul to evaluate and be like, Hey, you know, um, there bill or Richard Delgado, like you, could've given more data to prove like, maybe they're right. Can you show the data? Like, where's the data to show that because Thomas Hall has a lot more data in it, but I generally find CRD to be rather undramatic like, I'm not even sure what is super threatening about it.
Speaker 1 01:13:02 It's a lot of it is self-evident, it's not, it's not even like that crazy, but I think what's happening is CRT in itself is a theory trying to make sense of things that are happening. So there are disparities that are happening, even though there were laws that were put in place to curb this disparity. So even with the laws, there's know, even though red lining is technically illegal, it effectively still happens. Why is that? And so they're, they're trying to grapple with that. CRT is not, not that I've read at least trying to set forth a path of making these things right, or making, bringing about justice, um, is just a tool to evaluate, uh, it's a critique actually, of, of kind of the modern liberalism, the way, you know, you look at even someone like Lyndon, B Johnson, like he was a Democrat and he's, he's supposedly put in place things that were supposed to be helpful for the black family, but many years later, there's still, there's still such disparity.
Speaker 1 01:14:02 Why is that? CRT is pretty ruthless with the American system and the American society. So I think we need to, we need to be challenged that do we have too great of a love for America? Are we, are we willing to let our, you know, the, the systems, the ideological structures that, that we're identifying with and, and finding safety in, are we willing to evaluate them to see like, maybe there's something wrong, not necessarily all of it wrong, but maybe there's something that needs to change, but then there's people like Robin de Angelo or in Broome candy who are there specifically they're activists trying to pave a way forward of how to solve some of these problems. And so they're looking at problems that they've learned through critical race theory, and then they're writing about how to solve them, but then work with D'Angelo on DeAngelo's terms, work with Kennedy on Kennedy's terms.
Speaker 1 01:14:58 Don't, don't use them as the Def definition of CRT. That's not fair. Um, that, that would be sort of like using, you know, Thomas Munster to define Anabaptism right. Like, uh, um, excuse me, like that, that was not nothing about Thomas minster. Do I think it's Thomas Moser and I hope I'm getting his name. Right. But, um, nothing do I really want to be identified with, uh, in that, and yet I don't mind being identified as an Anabaptist. Um, and yet that's what Luther would have known. Right. So, so Luther's kind of view of like, this is a troubled people. Like, uh, it would make sense. He didn't have social media, he didn't have, you know, the, the, the speed of, of realizing that there's this group of people that are kind of have common feeling, but they're not organized. They're not structured. And they're developing all throughout Europe here and there, they call themselves the Anabaptists and Anabaptists.
Speaker 1 01:15:53 I know Anabaptist, I know the monster rebellion, you know? And so like, that's not fair. Like let's, let's work. Okay. Let's look at Muenster. He, he was in air, right. Okay. Let's look at Robin de Angelo. Uh, I don't know any person of color that actually, uh, Trump is Robin de Angelo that much, obviously they're, they're not gonna necessarily read a white person about their experience, but I do. I do think I personally have not read white fragility, but I've listened to things that Robin de Angela says. And there, there are things that I have concerned about and maybe, maybe I'll do an article addressing some of that. I want to read, uh, in Broome Candy's book. I have not read that one as well, either. Interestingly I've I've since like a lot of people put it from candy up as like the, the, you know, he's really dangerous and I've been listening to some of his stuff and I'm like, man, I just, I'm not getting where he's so dangerous.
Speaker 1 01:16:52 Like even his tone seems respectful. It seems sensitive. He's not, he himself says he's not trying to, uh, make people feel guilty just because they're white, but rather understanding the terms. Like I think, I think something that happens is people see whiteness being talked about without realizing what is meant by whiteness and whiteness refers to something more than simply being white. If someone's using that term, we need to figure out what they mean by that term. We can't just project what we assume they mean and say that somehow, well, then you need to use a different term or whatever. Well, okay, sure. Maybe, maybe we should find a different term. What term the reality is that some of the narrative that a lot of us have grown up with is wrong is simply prejudicial and it's uncomfortable to confront how it's prejudicial. Listen, when I pass the mic podcast is, is one of my favorite podcasts.
Speaker 1 01:17:52 I listened to it. Not regularly. I actually don't listen to any podcast super regularly right now, but it's a helpful podcasts, but I have to, I listen to it in spurts because it's rough to listen to sometimes like, is this, ah, seriously, like really? Uh, like, is there, is there not a better way to word it or say it, uh, jemartisby his books. Like he even says in his introductions, you may need to put this book down sometimes and just take a break. And I've found that at times, like it's hard, it's, it's rough to kind of reconsider and think about these and not, not even so much because I come away feeling guilty or just feeling like whatever. But just because the, the narrative that I was told was so different than I'm now, like it's work, it's even emotional intensive work to reflect and kind of, kind of deconstruct that and be like, why was I told that?
Speaker 1 01:18:47 Um, and what parts of what I was told are right. And what parts are wrong? And so that, like, I don't think we should be afraid of that work. Like I don't think we should be, we don't have to feel guilty. Nobody's nobody's saying we should feel guilty because we're white. Now there might be bitter people out there that are saying that, but I'm not finding that in some of these works. Um, maybe, maybe in DeAngelo's book, I'll see when I read it, I'll see, because I, I would get that a little bit in her tenor, in her attitude, in some of the, the lectures and stuff that I've watched. But there again, she's a white person, lecturing white people about whiteness. When I hear my brothers, my, you know, men and women, uh, from the black community or, or even some of my Latino friends here in LA, like when I hear them talking about the things that they're feeling, I'm not, I'm not hearing the guilt blaming that some people are saying, um, yeah, it's hard to hear sometimes.
Speaker 1 01:19:57 And I also like I'm, I, I can, I can feel inside myself, like, uh, but th there's a reason for that, or like, oh, kind of a justification, but the fact that we have the space to quickly justify ourselves and they don't have the space to just be heard, kind of indicates the problem. And I think a good exercise for us is to listen and to lean in, to like, that's, that's biblical to that. That actually lines up with now the notion, if somebody saying you don't have anything to say, because you're white, well, that's not necessarily a biblical, but Paul did say we are supposed to consider others above ourselves to consider other, be concerned about other people's interests more than our own interests. And so it's right that we reflect and we think, and we try to evaluate what about CRT exactly is evil.
Speaker 1 01:20:56 Um, but more importantly than that, we evaluate like what the experience is of people. Why is it that, um, there's a lot of white leaders in conservative Baptist circles who have been abusive and more and more, you know, in, in recent years, we're starting to get more of that, that come to life. I know of two situations, uh, across the Anabaptist world where a, a person of color was in leader in a leadership role and he was abusive and it, it made headlines. Like, it, it, it made news. Okay. Maybe it's rightfully so, but there's a lot, there's a lot of white leaders who are abusive as well. What, why do we give them the benefit of the doubt? Why are we quicker to give them the benefit of the doubt? Um, th that, that shows something wrong. Why, why is it such a struggle? It's not like in our Anabaptist circles. There's very few.
Speaker 1 01:21:59 I don't know if any, like right off hand at the moment, black leaders, the church pastor, I have a couple friends who are leaders in the sense of like, they are speakers. They, they have, um, uh, I, you know, one of our pastors here, he's, he's on the elders team right now. He's not considered a lead pastor, but, um, he's, he's from Mexico, you know, but there's, there's, it's not like I know of several situations where people have tried to lead. Why do we have a hard time following them? Is it well, there's, there's a cultural difference. Like there's such a strong cultural. Exactly, exactly. And that's the point, that's what Paul is addressing in Ephesians two. When, when we're supposed to submit one to another, there's going to be cultural differences that bring up a flare of hostility, but Jesus Christ put that to death.
Speaker 1 01:23:02 And so we should not be divided anymore by our, um, there should be a unity of a diverse community. And I don't think the goal should be to have a multi-ethnic church. There's plenty of multi-ethnic churches that still have a lot of racism, you know, that, that are kind of tokenizing people or whatever the goal should be having a right and proper healthy attitude that these, our brothers and sisters in Christ that I'm supposed to submit to, like, I might not always get, like why they prefer or why they even see a certain issue as, as so important. But I should try to understand them. I should put their interests above my own. I should make sure that they're doing well. Not just financially, but emotionally and spiritually. Um, socially, I should follow them if they are my leader, I should be willing to, to give honor to whom honor is due.
Speaker 1 01:23:59 So yeah, all that to say the wrap-up, if indeed critical race theory is teaching that we are evil or bad because we're white, that would not be biblical. I don't know. Like I would like a specific example of where that is taught and then kind of dovetailing on that is some of the criticisms about people like Robin de Angelo or Abraham candy, I would say, well, let's find, let's, let's talk about their books specifically, or there's other books that have been discussed that are being used in schools and so forth. Well, we should read those books and what is discussed in them and what is wrong with them, but let's not, let's not say CR CRT, like CRT is a large theory and there's many different writings taking on within that theory. So let's, let's address like this particular book. So there's Christianity, which is a large faith and there's many different writings that go on within Christianity.
Speaker 1 01:25:04 I'm not at all trying to compare CRD. Like Vodi Bochum says CRT is a false religion. It doesn't even frame itself as a, as a religion or some people looking to CRT as like a biblical texts for authority. That might be true. And, but then that's, that's a wrong use of, of how to handle CRT, but there's nothing inherent within CRT that demands people use it that way. It's but if you think of, of the, the umbrella of Christianity and then all the different writings that are problematic, that are done in the name of Christianity, well, I don't, none of us would, would say that defines Christianity, but, you know, obviously we kind of take a note of that author and that title, and we're concerned about that. Well, I think we should treat some of these works that are being done currently that are being fleshed out, trying to pave a way to resolve, to solve these issues.
Speaker 1 01:25:55 We should treat them like that as well. Again, if there's a, a direct line back to the kind of the architecture of CRT. Sure. Let's, let's talk about it. But then there's the other thing that, um, to evaluate, and that is the conversation of origins. People want to go right away and discussing the origins of CRT is, you know, cultural Marxism. And I already discussed how we first need to establish biblical a biblical theology of justice. But secondly, I think we need to look at the origins also of criticism towards CRT, but even more the origins of critiquing racial justice, activists as being cultural Marxist people called Martin Luther king Jr. A communist. And that, that was all in the S the FBI had a sting out. They were, they bugged his apartments and everything trying to, to prove or build a case against them that he was inclusion with the communists.
Speaker 1 01:26:59 And through that, that's how, the part of how they discovered people discovered all the, you know, some of the immoral things that Dr. King was involved in, but they never were able to build a case against king being connected with communism. But that is, that is a common, like, that's not, that's not a new accusation. That's typical. It's very typical. Anybody who is, is wanting to address racial injustice gets labeled as a Marxist, the cultural Marxist. Well, what is, what is the, the connection like, is there anything inherently within CRT that resembles Marxism and what's dangerous about Marxism? A lot of people, uh, who are anti Marxism, haven't even read Karl Marx, haven't even read there. There's some, again, this notion of like rejecting whole things, there's, there's a fairly popular and a Baptist preacher who, who believes that to read Marx is to be poisoned in, in your mind, begins to be darkened and poisoned, and you can't tell the truth from air.
Speaker 1 01:28:06 And so you can't even have a conversation with someone like that because he's conflating and projecting a lot of things on it. It's like, wait, wait, that's not, Mark's, doesn't say that. Like, have, have you read marks? And so what happens is we, we associate the tyrants of Stalin Mt. Say dung, and you know, the north Korean dynasty with Marxism, with communism, the rightfully so they were communistic. They were, they were using the, the concepts of Karl Marx for their own personal agendas. But what can often be forgotten is that the world has had many, many tyrants who used many, many philosophies of government, many philosophies of economics for their own purposes, their own gain. We are witnessing before us today, a tyrant on the loose who's using the form of democracy. It's corrupt. It's not a true democracy because he's, he's still rigging the voting and everything.
Speaker 1 01:29:09 And, you know, the, the role of oligarchs and all that, I'm still kind of confused understanding that, but the technical framework that Russia lives under right now is democracy. Now, obviously Volodymyr Zelensky is wanting Western democracy. He talking about the more westernized freedom and role of democracy. And that's the very thing that, that Putin is not wanting. He does not want Ukraine to go west and become like Westerners, but Putin is going to use Putin as a tyrant. He's going to use whatever system he can to bring about his aunts. And he came to power in a reign where communism had just collapsed. So they're developing democracy in Russia, and he takes advantage of that. History has been full of forms of government, everything from the czars and the surfs. That's actually kind of more, the, the Putin sees himself as a czar, kind of a new reenactment of the czar, but there there've been many, many forms of government that tyrants have used for their gain.
Speaker 1 01:30:18 So we cannot just correlate, oh, there's correlation, Karl Marx. He's, he's kind of behind communism and communism, you know, is run by all these tyrants and it's inherently evil, unless we also want to now de say and acknowledge, and, and Putin is not the first, but there are many other tyrants who used forms of capitalism forms of, of democracy to bring them out there gain. I mean, Hitler was, was an example of that. Hitler was not in a communist state. It wasn't. So we need to kind of throttle back and say, wait, wait, wait, where like, what are we supposed to be afraid of? And where kind of this assumed posture that conservative Christian evangelicals are against Marxism? Where does that come from? There was a lot of propaganda developed in the mid 19 hundreds when communism was coming to rise and was a threat of war against America, that in America businessmen kind of the oligarchs of America and developed, uh, came together to create advertisements and even movies that, that depicted communism as something to be feared because they wanted the energy of American citizens to, to, to be willing, to go out and fight.
Speaker 1 01:31:33 Like, let's go fight against the communism that is rearing its head in the, in the battles, whether, whether you think of the Vietnam war, the Korean war, or even, uh, some of the world wars, like we want to fight against these communists. And in order to drum up interest in going to fight and going to, to battle, then there was propaganda that was developed advertisements movies to, to condition us as a society, to fear communism in a similar way. We've seen in recent years, there's a conditioning to view a Muslim countries as the thing to be feared. This inherent threat is interesting. I wonder what, um, you know, if, if Iraq could have the peace to create movies, like what would their movies be about? Like, would they be, would they be teaching, you know, the fear of America, this nation that comes and invades them under the supposedly guise of weapons of mass destruction.
Speaker 1 01:32:36 And even though that there was never any proof of that, we, we view that as a, as a, it was good. It was an act of bravery for our people. It saved us. It did allow us freedom. Perhaps we now know, you know, now we know that there wasn't anything to be afraid of. Sadly. Uh, and this is as a non-violent Anabaptist. I don't know what to think about this, but w w what became the ISIS cell could have been destroyed, but, uh, Colin Powell and the Bush administration did not want to begin that war because they wanted an excuse to go into Iraq. Um, now that's, that's a whole, uh, history trail that we could, we could dive into in another conversation. But, uh, my, my whole point is that tyranny has taken many different forms. And, you know, one of the things that we saw in January 6th, 2021 was that we're not that far away from tyranny being on our doorstep here in America.
Speaker 1 01:33:44 Now, thankfully there are still men of character morality who are in positions of power, who have the backbone to stand and say, no, Mr. President, I'm not going to certify the votes in a certain way. Even if Pence thought that the election was rigged, or, you know, even, even if you wanted Trump to actually win, like he's still, he still stood for morality and character, and we're grateful for that. But, um, but we need as Christians, we should have an understanding that all systems of government fail, the nations rise and the nations are brought low. And in all human forms of government economics, like there's going to be errors to them. Capitalism creates a wealth gap, but capitalism is needed to develop wealth in a society. Karl Marx even taught that he taught that capitalism, uh, sorry, socialism needed capitalism to get the economy to a level that is good enough to sustain socialism.
Speaker 1 01:34:50 And we see perhaps, uh, the Scandinavian countries actually implementing in a more nuanced way. Some of, some of Marx's ideas, Marx's ideas about socialism in a way that that can be run in a democracy. And that can be a little healthier for, for the people they're turning a surplus as, as a, as a, a nation. And, you know, a lot of people argue debate, oh, they're not actually socialists. Well, no, they're not communists, but here's the question. One of the things that is inherent to the idea of socialism is, is sharing a society. That's why it's called socialism, that the society is responsible for creating equal opportunity for creating equity, for creating equal opportunity for wealth, uh, equal opportunity for education. And so that the society shares that responsibility. And that's, that's why that's where the definition of socialism is just, just so we're clear, I'm not trying to promote socialism here.
Speaker 1 01:35:55 I'm trying to just communicate like what socialism is. Karl Marx taught that in order to bring about true reformation and revolutions, you need to overthrow those in power. You need to violently take those in power. So I've, I vehemently disagree with Karl Marx's path forward, but I think, I think he was tapping into legitimate things that could be helpful. It doesn't work. The, the individualism of capitalism doesn't work for people who don't have capital. It works very well for people who have capital, but not everybody has capital. Not everybody has the same opportunity for capital. And so, um, so, so we need to understand that socialism or, or even Marxism is a, again, a theory, something that is studied in academia. And so when you read over the list of authors, of people who wrote CRC, yeah. You're going to read people who you're going to see that they, oh, they were trained, like they had this Marxists training and they're in their education.
Speaker 1 01:36:54 Uh, there even, I I'm, I don't know this for sure, but I think any, I can economist probably went through a class on Marxism that that's kind of just part of the field. And so just to say that that inherently means you are now founded on Marxism. Now, what, what particularly about critical race theory or critical theory in general is Marxist in nature inherently. And then what is problematic about that? Like, we need to get specific. Let's work with specific. If, if I hear, hear me out, I'm not saying that to shut you down. I'm saying that to ask you to get more specific, if, if, if this is your concern, um, so that we can talk more specifically about the issues and not just kind of a general fear-mongering of, oh, it's, it says Marxists, because it's not, it's not necessarily like the, the bad things, the concerning things of Marxism are not inherently being brought over.
Speaker 1 01:37:56 Might they be? Yeah, they might be. W just like, if you look at someone like Dave Ramsey, who, who teaches, uses the Bible to perpetuate his PL uh, capitalistic framework for understanding finances, and he can help people get rich, but there's also certain people that can't really be helped by him. Um, he, he shuts down the conversation pretty quickly of people who find themselves living in, in urban areas. I don't know if you've ever noticed that his pretty much his solution, if you're living in an urban area is just to get out of the urban area or to relocate, get to another place. And I, I F I find that, uh, rather lacking, like, if, if, if I tell you, if you're living in a rural area and you're facing some problems, I tell you why you need to just get into the urban area.
Speaker 1 01:38:46 Then you won't have those problems anymore. You're going to be like, dude, like you just went over my head like that. You're missing me. Well, that's, that's how it is with people in the urban areas. Like the, the solution. Like, we need to find solutions that fit the settings, and we need to be willing to nuance our dogma or our ideologies in order to actually find helpful solutions. So was critical race theory founded on Marxism? Well, I guess, like, what do we mean by founded on something? Was America founded on Christian principles? What does that mean? Does it mean that there were principles in the Bible that were taken and put in the constitution of America? Yeah, there were, but does that mean that the constitution of America says the same message that the Bible says? No, it doesn't. Um, so I would say if something's founded on, if we're going to say it's founded on Christian principles, then the, the constitution, and the way that it's structured is going to resemble the, the, the motif or the trajectory of the biblical narrative America's constitution, doesn't Americas, uh, of structures do not.
Speaker 1 01:39:57 And the fact that America exists, like the fact that they were living and they had rebelled against their people and then trampled over and had imperialistic, uh, nature taking over the land, looting the land and, and taking over the people like that inherently goes against things that the Bible tells Christians to do or not to do. And so, like, you, you can't break the, the very principles of the Bible and then say, oh, but we're going to found something that's founded on the Bible. Like immediately in that moment, it should have brought people to repentance. And these, we have just violated you. This is wrong, but it didn't. And so I don't, I don't think that our founding fathers, the founding fathers of America were prayerfully, like trying to develop something that, that accurately portrayed the kingdom of God in America, not at all, but they saw things in the Bible that were helpful for their ends, for their political ends to develop a structure that seemed more fit for the things that they wanted.
Speaker 1 01:41:03 Um, and so they used the Bible just like Dave Ramsey uses the Bible, but, you know, he, he he's right on when he says that the borrower is slave to the lender. So he's very much against debt. So he works hard to help people get out of debt, but there's absolutely no dialogue. You never hear on Dave Ramsey's show anything about the parable where Jesus, like, satirically kind of mocks this man whose business is growing and he's doing well. And he's building bigger barns and bigger sheds and getting bigger machinery. And Jesus says, you fool like the very one who says, don't call people. Fool is now saying you fool, your, your soul is going to be asked of you tonight. Should that not also be a part of shaping our understanding of how to steward our finances? Well, if you're trying to found your philosophy of finances on the biblical narrative, then it should, it would, but that's not what Dave Ramsey is doing.
Speaker 1 01:41:58 Dave Ramsey is, has a very pragmatic, it's very practical. A lot of it is common sense way of building wealth. And he's, he's trying to help you build wealth. And if you have like, he, he, he tells you to hustle and to spread your schedule thin for the sake of getting out of debt and building wealth. Well, that directly contradicts the values of scripture that says, seek first, the kingdom of God and his righteousness. Like that should be your ultimate pursuit. Um, and, and your, you should care for your family. You should not neglect taking care of your family, as well as the commission, the call of Christ to make disciples. Now, I'm not saying, I, I think in business, you can make disciples in, in your work as it is a part of that. But, but I'm just trying to illustrate that no, Dave Ramsey, Dave Ramsey is not founded on biblical principles.
Speaker 1 01:42:51 He's using biblical principles to give a perceived authority to his teaching in the same way. America's not founded on biblical principles. They're using biblical principles to give a perceived authority for their form of government, their form of economy. And in the same way, in a similar way, CRT is not founded on Marxism. Marxists ideas might be influencing how they structure, but it's not like it's inherently trying to perpetuate Marxism. The other thing about that conversation is like most of the early, uh, Sojourner truth, some of the other, uh, like, uh, Derek bell, I think even like they were Christians, they, they were fellow Christians. And so they were like, if you, if you want to somehow claim that the, the very group of people who had Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, and somehow they were Christians, John Adams was, we know John, John Adams was a Christian. Um, actually Jefferson may have been as well.
Speaker 1 01:43:52 I forget. It's not uncommon for people back then to talk about God. There, there was no such thing as an atheist or a skeptic back then, uh, there were, there was theism and then deism. So deism was a trajectory away from God. And that's where most people like George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, they would have been BS. They had this perception of God, but God's just up there in the skies and we're supposed to govern. We're supposed to rule and reign down here. However we see fit. And it's the trajectory is the path toward atheism and skepticism. So, no, I like, they're not inherently trying to follow them. Benjamin Franklin was an incredibly immoral man. Like they're not trying to follow the way of the kingdom. So if we're going to discuss the origins of CRT, then let's, let's be honest about origin stories. Let's be honest about origin conversations.
Speaker 1 01:44:46 Um, and, and I think we also need to, to be pretty Frank and honest about how we're kind of selective on the ideas that we demand to know the origins of. I think that's problematic. I think that shows some bias that ought to be confronted within us. Anyways, this has gotten lengthy. Thank you for listening. I w I would love to hear feedback. If you have questions, if there's something you're not entirely understanding if there's anything that I've said, especially in terms of like, show me where in critical race theory does, does it say this, I welcome you to drop in. Like, maybe you take a picture of like, Hey, age, you know, 624 or whatever it says this, go ahead. I will be honest with you. I'm not like if you, if you drop a YouTube link of somebody like Neil Shen V or Vodacom or answers in Genesis or, or anything along that, I'm probably not gonna, like, I've, I've done a lot of that reading and listening to those.
Speaker 1 01:45:41 Yeah. I mean, even in the last couple of weeks, I think on Facebook, I said something about, Hey, you know, what is, what is the reason, what is unbiblical about critical race theory? Give me your, your best explanation, answer to that. And a lot of people dropped some videos and articles and stuff, and I looked at them and I'm like, I can, if it's a video, it's like within five minutes, I can tell like, oh, I know what you're going to say. And I'll zoom ahead and be like, oh yeah, yeah, they're saying it. Uh, the article I skimmed through, it's like, oh yeah, no, these, oh, oh, he's pulling bottoms for four tenants or whatever. Like a lot of it is just kind of common being circulated. And I think something, I guess, something I would appeal to you is that you also evaluate the origins of the criticism against CRT.
Speaker 1 01:46:28 And I'll drop a link in this podcast description that, that talks about where this staunch criticism of CRT comes from kind of the, the, uh, the way that's developed in the church. And then it was kind of perpetuated in, in the political punditry as well. And we're seeing that, like, we're seeing, you know, politicians take a hard stance against CRT, and you can tell like, by their speech, they don't even really know much about the conversation, but they're trying to galvanize the evangelical vote. And right now that's the thing like having a strong stands against CRT, that's, that's the way to galvanize it. In fact, that actually ranked, uh, I forget it, was it pew? Uh Richard's. I should see if I should find that. I remember, uh, a year ago I was reading a poll, a survey that talked about like, what things did people vote on vote accordingly and abortion?
Speaker 1 01:47:21 I think it was like seven or eight on the list. It wasn't that high of the thing. And other things like, um, I think, I think, um, economy was pretty high, how the economy was as well as, uh, the, the resistance to the influx of, I forget, I don't think it was worded. Like, I don't think CRT was specifically, but maybe woke ism or like the concern over woke ism and stuff like that. Folks, these are just new invented ways to silence people, to, to sideline things and not actually have a robust conversation about issues that, that truly matter. Yeah. I th I think we could do better as a church. I think, like I said, we don't need CRD, but don't when somebody starts talking about, Hey, like, you know, I think this is unhealthy for us to dominate the conversation as, as white people, you know?
Speaker 1 01:48:14 And you begin to like specifically name certain issues that are taking place in. Don't go, don't go labeling onto them. Oh, you're just embracing CRD. Cause that's not going to help the conversation either. Like, no, like I'm, I'm talking about something that's happening right now. Like right in this meeting right here, we're seeing it play out. I've been in meetings like that. And I guess, um, one of my appeals would be, if you don't like, if, if your church in your community is all white, you don't have to feel guilty if you're city or if, if whatever, Dem demo, um, demography, whatever demographic your church is in, in society. If it's not resembling that, if your church is not resembling that, I think you should ask some deeper questions. I don't think you need to feel guilty inherently, but you should ask some deeper questions.
Speaker 1 01:49:03 Like, what is it about our church that, that makes it impossible. I think those things need to be re-evaluated needed to be deconstructed as it were and be like, Hey, what, what sort of prejudices are guiding our understanding of theology even so, no, I don't think you need to feel guilty. Just like, oh, we have an all white church, but do you think, uh, unless your immediate culture resembles all ways, you know, you should probably ask some questions. Like, what are, are we making disciples? Like, are we, are we out like, have we shared for, for as many people that are anti CRT, how many people have talked to their neighbor about the issues of life over the last year and a half, two years? Um, have you, have you shared the gospel with anybody recently? Are you, are you actively discipling someone? Who's not like you is not from your background.
Speaker 1 01:49:54 Um, and if you're not, why not? Yeah. I get you like, it's hard. I get it. But that kind of indicates like a lack of love within us. If we, if we're not actually pursuing, uh, all the nations, whether, whether we're going to the nations or whether the nations are here right. With us. And I'm absolutely not saying that, oh, I've got Caucasian neighbor on this side and a Caucasian neighbor on this side. Oh, like a mile out of town. I know there's a black guy, so I'm going to go try and disciple him, like no disciple your neighbors. Like, just my point is I think we have deeper questions to be asking of ourselves. If, if we, if we aren't facing these struggles, if we aren't facing cultural dynamics in our church, I think we have deeper questions to be asking, like, how much are we actually out making disciples?
Speaker 1 01:50:44 Like how much do we love our neighbors? How much, how much do we care about the nations of the world? Which includes white American Gentiles? How much do we care about them? Knowing the Messiah and receiving, becoming joint heirs to the promise and the blessing, because it's in that process, we're going to bump into all kinds of messy stuff that we're going to need some kind of language to talk about. And we're going to need some kind of tools to help analyze, like, okay, what might be going on. We're going to have to have raw conversations about the history that you grew up with have, have a Jew that grew up in Germany. Maybe they're maybe they themselves were in a concentration camp or their parents were in concentration camp. And somehow, you know, live with a German. Like that's, That's like the people of Rwanda. That's like, uh, you know, the people is Muslims getting along with, with juice hostage. It's like Americans and native Americans, people of European descent and native Americans and people, whether they're from Africa directly or their ancestors are from Africa.
Speaker 1 01:52:05 Like the more we love others. And the more we actually preach the gospel and share the gospel, discipled people, the more we're going to bump into these just messy dynamics of church. And we've got to have a robust theology of justice, a robust theology of the kingdom of God theology, the eschatological vision of the Bible and the kingdom of God in order to navigate these messy situations, we don't need CRTs for all of that. The moment we start talking about those things, people would just embrace CRT. If somebody say, Hey, CRTs helping me kind of articulate, find, find words, language for issues, talking about like, don't just shut them down on your buying into a heresy. Oh, interact. Does it engage it most times, if you're, if you're saying just to shut something away, you end up creating curiosity and you're not actually learning how to process anyways, I'm going to stop there next week. We're going to look at Ephesians two and three. I'm going to share basically just share a sermon with you that I recently shared with our church. And so if you, if you want some homework, go, go ahead and read the book of Ephesians. That takes about takes me. I'm a slow reader. It takes me 26 minutes to read in one sitting. So you parse that out. However you want four sets of six
Speaker 1 01:53:33 Plus two, or just do it one city, read it over and over again. Um, but we're going to be looking specifically at Ephesians two and three, because there is a theological background for why I care about racial issues. This is not me. Listening to CNN. Got blessed on lemon.
Speaker 1 01:54:19 Unfeigned. Christianity is brought to you by our members at Patrion as a part of the membership program. You receive two deep dev essays a month and expanded versions of all our podcasts interviews. If you would like to become a member visit www dot <inaudible> dot com forward slash remember on faith. Christianity podcast is also a part of two networks. The restorative faith collective, where we have conversations about race, perspectives and relationships, and you needed a Baptist context to learn about more articles and podcasts visit www dot restorative faith, collective.org. The second network is the kingdom outpost, where we talk about what it looks like to live as Jesus's nation in today's world for more podcasts and articles, visit kingdom outpost.org. Thanks for listening.
