What’s Really Happening in Minneapolis? A Firsthand Conversation

[00:00:00] Speaker A: What's going on is that ICE agents are going to places of employment, they're going to schools, they're going to homes. And essentially they would call it arresting. I would call it kidnapping. These people, the reason I would call it kidnapping is because they're not announcing themselves as law enforcement officers. They're driving around in unmarked cars. They're masked and completely unidentifiable. They don't identify themselves by by name or badge number. And often they're operating without judicial warrants to detain people. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Hey friends, welcome back to Unfeigned Christianity, where we are on a journey of becoming theologically anchored in Jesus, emotionally healthy so that we can love and disciple others. Well, today I'm excited to have my cousin Sonya Whitmer on the podcast. We will be discussing what's going on in Minneapolis. She lives in Minneapolis and works there and through her church has been helping out with some of the immigrant crisis there in Minneapolis. And so we're going to have a conversation around what's actually going on. I look forward to this conversation because it's gives us a glimpse into a firsthand account what it's like. It also gives us a glimpse of how someone amidst their everyday life, even with a totally separate full time vocation, how someone is finding ways to love. Well, to love and disciple people around them. Well. And so I invite you to sit in this and just receive it and listen to it and ponder it like what's actually going on. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Sonya. All right. Welcome Sonya, to Unfeigned Christianity. It's good to have you on here. [00:02:02] Speaker A: Thanks, Asher. Yeah, it's good to be here. [00:02:05] Speaker B: We were just chatting before we hit record here that all of this has kind of made me realize how out of or I've lost touch with some of my cousins that we would have growing up. We had a lot more contact with. I yeah, when everything the end of January, I forget what I guess the Renee Goode was that the first thing that kind of put Minneapolis on the map at least recently. I can't remember what it was. [00:02:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's when a lot of things escalated all at once. And it was kind of right when Renee Good the shooting happened and a lot of other things like the raids were escalating as well and that kind of just all peaked at the same time. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I, there's a friend from International Falls where I grew up, who lives and works as an attorney in Minneapolis. And I saw his some of his Facebook posts and so I was kind of tracking with that. I have not been in contact with him since we moved out of there in 2008, but I was kind of. And then the Alex Preddy shooting happened and other stuff and. And you got all this news coverage about things and I. I know what it was like to live in LA in the middle of 2020 and hearing people across the country or even just seeing how the media was representing what was going on. And I was just wishing, man, I wish. I wish I could talk to somebody who actually lives there. And then Teresa was like, don't you have two cousins who live in Minneapolis? And I was like, oh, yeah, duh. And so I re. That's when I reached out to you and Justyce and. Well, I guess I don't know if you knew. I reached out to both of you together. [00:04:01] Speaker A: Yeah, he did tell me. He did tell me that you reached out. [00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And just kind of. I was just curious what it's like. [00:04:08] Speaker A: Like. [00:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. How compare. Like how accurate is the media and what's actually going on there. And the more I chatted with you, the more I was like, well, it'd be kind of fun to have you on the podcast to talk about it. And I wasn't sure if you were open to that, but you have been. And so here we are. Thanks for joining. [00:04:31] Speaker A: Yeah, here we are. Yeah, I was. Yeah. When you asked me originally, I was like, oh, goodness, do I want to do that? But my. My initial concern was like, just not over publicizing some of the things, but I think. I think I can talk about what's happening in a way that doesn't. My safety or anything. Yeah. [00:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, maybe to get started and give our listeners some context for you, you are my cousin. Our dads are twin brothers. So that's how close we are as far as relatives. The youngest of 10, they were both twins. And you grew. Your family. Most of your growing up years would have hailed. And I guess your parents are still in central Wisconsin area and we were up in International Falls, northern Minnesota. But now you and Justyce are in Minneapolis. Yeah. Kind of give a. Give a rundown what. What you've been up to. What led you to Minneapolis? I believe Bible college led you to Minneapolis, is that correct? [00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I moved to Minneapolis in August of 2016 to attend college. Yeah. At a Christian college. Did that and graduated from that and haven't ever left. I started putting down roots and found a good home church and yeah. So I. In most recent years, I've gone back to school And I'm in my third and final year of a counseling psychology program through the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. And I'm actually in my internship now working with clients. [00:06:28] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And graduating from that in June. And then I'll start working towards licensure for that for counseling. So. [00:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah, that's very good. [00:06:40] Speaker A: Keeping me busy the last couple years. And in between undergrad and graduate, I was just working full time in a coffee shop, bakery position. Did manage there and everything, so. Yeah. [00:06:55] Speaker B: Okay. Is your. Are the Seattle School of. I. I forget the name of it. [00:07:03] Speaker A: Theology and Psychology. It's a. [00:07:05] Speaker B: It's a field one. [00:07:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:06] Speaker B: Is that online or is. Is there a campus there in Minneapolis? [00:07:11] Speaker A: There's not a campus in Minneapolis. My program is what's called low residency. So the first two years I traveled out to Seattle three times a year. And we would start. We operated on trimester schedule, and we would start each trimester together. The cohort would. And then we'd be together for like four days and then all go back to our respective homes and states and then would be online for the rest of the term. [00:07:39] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:07:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:07:42] Speaker B: And you're. You are working as a counselor currently. You see clients? [00:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Is that in person primarily, or. [00:07:53] Speaker A: It is, yeah. Yeah. I'm actually in my office right now. [00:07:56] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:07:57] Speaker A: Behind me is where my clients sit. Yeah, yeah. I'm seeing clients in person. There's. I might have a couple telehealth, but in general, it's in person. And then my supervisor is like right across the hall so I can consult with her when I have questions and all of that. [00:08:20] Speaker B: Very good. Cool. I. Excuse me. Yeah, we live in central Colorado, and so the Canyon City is kind of a small town. A counselor that I see regularly is up in Colorado Springs, and it's nice to visit someone in person, but I've switched to telehealth just because of simplicity's sake. And so there's a lot of. Really, I think a lot of it since COVID in 2020 that, you know, a lot of tools that have been created to. To help people expand their reach or people be able to get. Receive help in that way without. So I. I wasn't sure if how much of that is via telehealth and how much is in primarily in person. Things like that was kind of unique to him. [00:09:15] Speaker A: It kind of depends on the clinic and the, like the therapist and what they prefer. I prefer doing in person, but I also understand that, like, sometimes travel or time constraints or other things prevent It. So there is the option of doing telehealth. It's interesting that you mentioned Covid, because the program that I'm in now or the Seattle school, they developed their online program because of COVID So if it hadn't been for Covid, I don't know if I would have gone to school at the Seattle school because I was really interested in relocating. Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting to see all the different effects that really hard things can. Can have. Like good. Good effects even in. In the midst of hard things. [00:10:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you. You live in. And I guess I'm not. I was never super familiar with Minneapolis. We traveled there for, you know, for certain health when we had to go to major hospitals or sporting events or flying out of the country where you needed a bigger airport. But do you live kind of downtown? I guess that you probably told me and I forget. Are You Minneapolis or St. Paul side of things? [00:10:43] Speaker A: I'm Minneapolis. Yeah. Yeah. I'm on the eastern side of Minneapolis. So I am close to St. Paul and it's not downtown. I'm probably 15 minutes ish, give or take from downtown. Yeah. Yeah. I live right along the Mississippi river, actually. [00:11:03] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:11:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:05] Speaker B: What's that? Is that nice? In Minneapolis, like, have they developed bikeways and walkways and stuff along there? [00:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah. So Minneapolis is actually considered the most bikable city in the United States. [00:11:22] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah, we have an entire network called the Greenway, and it's like the own. Your own separate highway system specifically for bikes. [00:11:32] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Pedestrians. And along the. Along the Mini. Or the Mississippi river, there's. Yeah. Beautiful paths for bikers and runners. And it's been interesting. This is my first winter living there and watching, like, the activity doesn't stop even in the winter. People are out biking. I. I saw someone skijuring with their dog one day in like minus 20 degree weather. [00:12:03] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:12:04] Speaker A: Yeah, they don't. Yeah. The cold weather doesn't really slow down the Minnesotans too much. [00:12:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [00:12:13] Speaker A: You. You understand. [00:12:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, there was. Here in Colorado, there's. Every New Year's there's a run. I forget what it's called. [00:12:22] Speaker A: The. [00:12:23] Speaker B: It's a special run. But some. Some years it's like down below freezing. And so people. I don't know if they've ever canceled it or. It's just not a big show out. And I remember in International Falls, we had the Icebox Days events, and that was specifically, like, if it was above zero, then it was like, what's the point of Doing these icebox days. [00:12:47] Speaker A: There's the. [00:12:49] Speaker B: Yeah, freeze. I think it was your freeze, your gizzard, turkey trot or something like that. That was like a 5k walk or run. [00:12:59] Speaker A: Easing. Yeah, I can't remember. [00:13:01] Speaker B: Anyways, that's great. [00:13:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:04] Speaker B: So how close do you live to stuff that's going on as far as ice and border patrol? And I guess for the purpose of this conversation, unless you think it's better to do otherwise, I'm probably going to use them kind of interchangeably, ice and border patrol and everything that's been going on. [00:13:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's that probably fine. Yeah. I'm about. Probably 10 to 15 minutes away from where like the. The most activity has been taking place. So my neighborhood hasn't been directly affected. I haven't seen any or heard of any ICE activity in my neighborhood. But like the. The site where Renee Goode was murdered is like five minutes down the road from where a friend lives. Um, and that. And then the Alex Preddy site is. It's on Nicola Ave. Some people know it as Eat street because there's a lot of restaurants and cafes along that street. And. [00:14:16] Speaker B: Oh, interesting. [00:14:16] Speaker A: Kind of. You can almost travel the world on the one street because there's so many different cuisines. And so that's an another area that I'm very familiar with. Yeah. [00:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So what. As I understand you guys through your church and different. Different things, you guys are involved in different ways helping immigrant families. What. What got you into that and what all have you been doing as far as helping people in that way? [00:14:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. My church started organizing people, all. Mostly people from our church, although we folded in a few people from, like, connections outside of the church. I think it was the Renee Good shooting happened. My church had a prayer night, and it was at the prayer night that they announced the. The start of what we call pods. So it was five, four to five households in a pod that were matched with two to three immigrant families that needed support. And so that night at the prayer night, I heard. Heard about the opportunity and I. I had been feeling more and more strongly. I was like, I need to do something. Something like, I can't just. I can't just watch this happen. I can't just be a bystander. And. And so when that opportunity was given, I filled out a little Google form and got connected with. I think it's four other households. And so we've been supporting three. Three families. Two of them are immigrant families, and then one is a Native American family that's been Sheltering in place because of safety concerns. And we. Yeah, and there's. I don't even know how many pods have formed in. In my church. I know that there's a lot. And we've been providing groceries. So, like, going to food banks to pick up food, doing grocery shopping. Every week we do a grocery. Grocery runs and drops for them. We've provided rent support because none of them are able to go to work at this point. And there's funds, like grassroots funds that have been started since all of this started that people are donating to, and we're able to distribute to folks who need rent support. There's. Oh, goodness. I think the last time I heard it was the guesstimated number was like, 20. Some 20,000 families that need help with the rent. It's the. The number is massive. And. And then some other things. One of the families was needing some furniture, so we've been kind of trying to find furniture for them and deliver that and then also just trying to provide some, like, tangible beauty in the midst of really difficult circumstances. So, like, we made flower bouquets and sent it to them. Or like this last week, we. We did Valentine's Day cards, and everyone filled out Valentine's Day cards for the. For the family in our cod. So just ways to try to help them feel connected and know that there are people who are supporting them even though they're really isolated right now. [00:18:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a couple things you said that maybe people are wondering more about. You mentioned how you can't just watch this happen. And so my question is, like, what is happening? What are you seeing? And then also people sheltering in place. Like, why would. If someone is a legal resident, why would they have to shelter in place? I don't know if you want to speak to that. What's actually going on in Minneapolis, and why is all this going on? [00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah, so what's going on is that ICE agents are going to places of employment, they're going to schools, they're going to homes, and essentially they. They would call it arresting. I would call it kidnapping. These people. The reason I would call it kidnapping is because they're not announcing themselves as law enforcement officers. They're not. They're driving around in unmarked cars. They're masked and completely unidentifiable. They don't identify themselves by name or badge number or anything. And often they're operating without judicial warrants to detain people. [00:19:42] Speaker B: Wow. And so they don't. I don't think I even realized that they don't Drive official vehicles. They're just like regular cars. [00:19:54] Speaker A: Yeah, they're regular cars. A lot of them are rentals from like. Yeah, just like. I think Enterprise is one that they rent a lot from. [00:20:06] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:20:07] Speaker A: And I've heard, I think the Star Tribune, which is our local newspaper, did an article on how they will even like, swap out license plates on vehicles so that they're not as trackable or the license plates on the vehicle aren't registered to the vehicle that they're on. So there's. Yeah. Kind of scary, confusing things like that happening. [00:20:36] Speaker B: Why, why are they. I mean, that sounds like what criminals do. Why, why. Why do they have to swap out license plates? And why are they doing that? [00:20:50] Speaker A: I think it. So in the last two and a half to three months, Minnesota has trained 30,000 legal observers. So that's regular civilian people who have been taught how to observe law enforcement activity. And I would presume, I don't know this for a fact, but I would presume that the license plate swapping is so that those vehicles can't be tracked or they can't. Like, if someone's observing, they're like, okay, it's this car, license plate number, whatever, tell the next person. But if it gets switched, then it's not as easily spotted. Those are, those are my, those are my reasonings. I don't know that for a fact. I haven't heard that. Yeah, yeah. [00:21:47] Speaker B: So they're driving regular rental vehicles, swapping out plates. They're masked and they're. You. You said they're usually acting without any formal. Forget how you worded it. Warrant or any. [00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So in order for ICE to be able to legally detain someone, they need to have a judicial warrant that's been signed by a judge. And they have most often been operating on a. I believe it's called a civil warrant, which is just signed by an ICE officer. And that doesn't give them authority to detain someone or to enter a home or anything like that. So they, they've often been just circumventing the, the legal system by not getting that. And this is, this is stuff that, like, at first, when things first started in beginning of December, the people they were targeting had no idea. Like, they, they were like, oh, it's immigration control. Yep, we're legal. We can open the door and show them our documentation. And then the door would be opened and the, the agents would burst in and detain the person despite them having legal documentation. [00:23:13] Speaker B: So why, why is that happening? If they're, they're just targeting Immigrant people to deport them. Even if they're. How. How do they determine to do that? House. And then the purpose of them entering the house is just to remove them, or. What do they think they're entering the house for? [00:23:42] Speaker A: That's a, That's a great question. I. I don't know exactly what they think they're entering the house for. It, it would seem, from the way that, from their patterns of activity, that somehow they have a list of immigrants and they're targeting people because they're immigrants. And initially they would say, like, we're going after criminals, but it's become increasingly apparent that they're targeting all immigrants and not just immigrants with criminal records or activity. [00:24:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's not just because I, I mean, it was. It's been about a year ago, what, March, I guess, maybe when Trump first did his round of ICE raids. And a lot of the news talked about targeting undocumented. Yeah, it talked about criminals as well, but undocumented immigrants. And I, having lived in la, like, I immediately think of faces, like, people I know who are technically undocumented, but they are here legally trying to go through the process. Maybe they showed up at immigration court and something wasn't quite right in their paperwork. And then you have to wait another six months till you can get an appointment, which often then gets kind of rescheduled and shuffled around in the process. And so, like, that was the thing that I immediately started thinking about is like, the vast majority of undocumented immigrants aren't here trying to steal jobs and all this stuff illegally. They're trying to do it legally. [00:25:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:35] Speaker B: Not. Not that immigration isn't how immigration is handled in the States doesn't need to be improved. Like, I think there's a legitimate issue there. But. But that was initially what I thought about, was just because someone's undocumented, because technically you're undocumented, even if you just have your. I forget what it's called when you can get entry kind of as an emergency, but you're still in process of getting the status. Yeah. You're thinking of maybe, perhaps, but you're saying now, like, there's people who are. They have their papers. They've done all through the whole process and they're being detained. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So actually a personal story, a friend of mine, or a former co worker of mine was detained on his way to work, like two weeks ago, three weeks ago, and he's been in the US For, I think three or four years, has always kept his paperwork up to date, and he was detained at a bus stop and taken into custody. And my boss, my, my former boss, like checked all of his paperwork. It was all, it had all just been updated this past, I think, summer at some point in 2025. And so my former boss reached out to, oh, what is it called? Immigration, some sort of legal help for immigrants and, and got him connected, connected with his family here. And a week later he was released. And the, the court said that he had been unconstitutionally detained because. And, and then he was released and now he's back home. But that's like one example that, that I have a personal connection to where it's someone been here illegally from the get go, has been documented, had all the papers, kept them up to date, and still was targeted and detained for a whole week. And there was no like, explanation of why. So, yeah, the, the assumption that one would make is the color of the skin, his skin and his accent is what made him a target. [00:28:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, and so then he's out of work for a week, he's missing. Did he have family or was he single? [00:28:19] Speaker A: He, he has a sister here and then he's supporting family back in his home. Home country. [00:28:25] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Yeah. [00:28:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:27] Speaker B: So they're not, these, these are not just criminals, are there? Was there a major problem of criminal activity from immigrant people in Minneapolis that led to this? Like, what. Was that a legitimate. [00:28:48] Speaker A: No, not that I'm aware of. I mean, I'm sure there has been criminal activity that's been done by immigrants in Minneapolis, but that has not been, to my knowledge, has not been a, like the big problem with our crime or anything like that. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And there was, there was one story that I would read about, I'm trying to remember where, where I read about it even, but where there was ICE picked up immigrants from a prison. [00:29:29] Speaker A: And. [00:29:29] Speaker B: They were considered people that ICE has rounded up, but they were actually already in the local justice system. The process was in place that was properly addressing criminals. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I heard about that too. I don't remember which news source I read that from, but I heard about that too. And then I've also heard that they have been targeting people, immigrants who've been through our justice system. So they've committed a crime, been convicted, and served whatever that sentence was, but now it's on their record. Right. And, and they're targeting those people too. And I, I'm not, I'm not a, a lawyer by any means, but I do think that there's something in the Constitution about not Being tried for the same crime twice, that's like not okay. But I, you know, even if you're an immigrant, that's not okay. So. [00:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, well there is, I forget which amendment it is that makes so that there's precedent for any. Even if you're an undocumented immigrant, if you're on American soil, you are to be tried in due process just like a regular citizen. [00:30:59] Speaker A: Yep. [00:31:02] Speaker B: And innocent until proven guilty, like the whole umbrella that American citizens kind of sit under that is supposed to also work for even undocumented immigrants, Right? [00:31:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:21] Speaker B: So these, these families that you're helping out with, they're, they're sheltering in place because they, they don't know what's going to get them caught and what's going to get them separated. Have you witnessed parents and children being separated from each other? [00:31:39] Speaker A: I have not witnessed it personally. I've, I've heard stories through news sources about that happening. I, Yeah, I think the most horrific one actually was of a mom who left to go buy diapers for her 3 month old baby. She left the 3 month old baby with her 16 year old daughter and then the mom was detained and the baby and 16 year old were left alone for I want to say it was like a week or so and the baby wasn't used to taking formula so was refusing to take a bottle and, and then local volunteers rallied and got breast milk donations for the baby and that's how the baby was able to survive those, those days without mom. And then she was eventually released. But yeah, that's, that's one of, one of the stories that I've heard. [00:32:48] Speaker B: What are as, as you have talked with some of these families or people you are helping through your pod. What's one of the most common fears that you hear them sharing? [00:33:04] Speaker A: Fear of being removed from their homes and sent back to often hostile homelands. So like people who are here as refugees are here for a reason. Like they had to leave home because home was no longer hospitable. So war politics. So that's, that's a big fear of being sent back to unsafe places, fear of losing family members either to separation or death. Because as, as we've seen, there's, yeah, there's, there's high risk of, of death involved in the, in all of this activity. [00:33:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:52] Speaker A: And then, and then loss of their freedom. Like being detained for, you know, sometimes weeks on end without access to legal counsel and things like that. [00:34:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The, the whole thing of coming from a hostile place or even, even just, I mean In a. In a way, poverty, extreme poverty is hostile. Hostile, a hostility, I guess. But it's hard, I think it can be hard for American citizens to wrap our minds around that. Even I've. I've seen floated the, the notion like, oh, these, instead of coming to the U.S. these immigrants should be going to neighboring countries. And a lot. I mean, and I'm largely going by some of my international experience. A lot of neighboring countries aren't safe places for. Because either they're going to work with that nation just so they don't get attacked, or it's a religious group that transcends national borders that are going after people or something that. Yeah, yeah. [00:35:12] Speaker A: What are countries don't have the infrastructure to support. There's also that. [00:35:21] Speaker B: What are. So I can't remember if we discussed this on Mike, we were discussing it at the beginning as well. But how many immigrants are there in Minneapolis and what is the largest? Where do they come from? The majority of the ones that are in Minneapolis. [00:35:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So there, as of 2024, there are 524,000 immigrants in Minneapolis. So that's about 9% of the population. Or, sorry, in Minnesota, not Minneapolis, that's about 9% of the population. As far as what's the largest, like what nationality or demographic is the largest? I don't know for a fact which is the largest. I know we do have a large Somali population. And just from what what I see, like Somali and South and Central America are where the. The most that I say, like when I'm out grocery shopping and going to work, those are the demographics that I see the most. I don't know numbers for sure. So 9% of Minnesota's population is immigrants. I was curious because you sent me this question ahead of time and I had to look it up because I didn't know off the top of my head. And I was curious how that compared to other states. I decided just to look at Texas because that seems interesting. And Texas in 2024 had 5.8 million immigrants, which. Texas is a lot bigger state, but that's 18.4% of the population. So they have almost double. Yeah, they have over double what we have. Yeah. [00:37:12] Speaker B: Almost double the percentage of population. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Yes. Percentage. Yeah. [00:37:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I was just looking too, to see how many are in LA county. There's like 3.5 in LA County. I'm not sure. But here in Colorado. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:31] Speaker B: So you mentioned the Somali being a. Somali people being a large portion of the immigrant community. What. What was the fraud that happened here a while back? I didn't follow it closely. Is that a major issue? Is that what caused. Because it sure seems especially here in the last couple of months now. I know there's been some stuff in Chicago as well and Christie's talked about it in LA some, but it seems like Minneapolis has kind of become the focus of ice and I'm still kind of trying to understand why. What. [00:38:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I am too, honestly. And I know like that it was, it was really weird because it was like the fraud stuff came up and then after that ICE showed up. I don't remember dates for that, but I, I followed that the fraud case somewhat closely and it seemed like it was made national news by A, a YouTuber who, okay, did some of his own research. I have since seen news organizations that have looked at his videos and his research and found that he, A lot of the research he was doing was pretty skewed. So the, the fraud is that there were daycares that were taking government funds but allegedly did not have children enrolled in their daycares. So they were essentially stealing those funds and siphoning it. I don't know where it was going. And so this YouTuber had visited some of these daycares and a lot of the daycares refused him entry or there wasn't anyone there. And so I guess I know the, oh, I can't remember which news organization it was now, looked at a lot of his feed and a lot of the times he was visiting these daycares either during non business hours or the people were refusing entry because they had a room full of children and they weren't going to let some strange people with cameras in with the kids. So, so that seemed to be the thing that sparked the whole fraud thing. And I, I do know that that fraud was under investigation in the state of Minnesota already. And so, so like it was being investigated internally. So I don't know if it was fraud that, that, that video that I can't imagine that it would have because it happened so quickly. It, it seems a little unusual. I also know like, Minnesota has historically been politically very liberal and very anti Trump. So I don't know if there was some connection between that and the, and the intensity of this. These are all just things that I've been trying to sort out and trying to make sense of. So, yeah, take it as you will. [00:41:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, obviously there's some history there, I guess going back to the George Floyd. [00:41:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:11] Speaker B: The incident in, I mean, the George Floyd murder. I was gonna say shooting and then it was. No, that wasn't a shooting. [00:41:20] Speaker A: Not that one. [00:41:21] Speaker B: And that would have been under Trump. [00:41:24] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yeah. [00:41:25] Speaker B: That was 2020, so. [00:41:26] Speaker A: Yep. [00:41:27] Speaker B: I don't. Yeah. I obviously, I don't know either, and I don't want to project my things. I was just kind of curious to hear. Yeah. Locally, like, what the connection was there. So there's been a decent. Depending on who you listen to. Sounds like an uproar. Others might be more of a standing against what is happening. As far as the protests, the resistance. I mean, it seems like even local law enforcement is resisting ICE and not. Not supportive of their presence. And what is it? Is it. Is. It sounds like from abroad. It sounds like it's a really violent situation in Minneapolis. Is that. [00:42:20] Speaker A: It does sound that way. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I personally have not felt unsafe in. In my city. I do know that the protests have all been intended to be peaceful. I know that there were times when protesters would be behind the police lines or whatever, and the. And. Or the. Yeah. So law enforcement would form a line. Protesters would. Behind law enforcement. ICE would be on the other side. And sometimes ICE would breach to get at the protesters. I heard of that and I know that. Yeah. Lots of tear gas and chemical agents like that were. Were released on the protesters. But also there was a protest in downtown Minneapolis right outside the building where I used to work that was a singing protest. And they were. The reason they chose that location is because it was right by a hotel where a lot of the ICE agents are rumored to stay. And they were singing songs like it's not too late or like they were making their own songs. But the message was, it's not too late to change your mind. Like. Like, remember we're all human. Those kinds of songs. Or. Yeah. And so those kinds of messages. And so, yeah, the violence, at least from what I've seen, seems to be perpetuated by ICE agents onto the protesters. I know the protesters, huge ruckus. They have whistles, there's yelling, there's horn honking. So that's. It sounds really chaotic. But from what I've seen and heard, they always, as much as possible, stay within their bounds. I know. I know there was confusion even with, like, the Renee Good shooting of like, some. It was alleged that she was trying to hit an agent with her vehicle. I think the videos show otherwise. Yeah, it's. Yeah. [00:44:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Why. Why would ICE be breaching? Like, if. If law enforcement is standing between them and the protesters, why are they going through that to get to the protest? Or am I understanding correctly? You're Saying they went through law enforcement. [00:45:06] Speaker A: That's what I've. That's what I've seen. Yeah. I, I don't know. It. Like, there was one video that I saw where it was. There was a line of police officers, protesters, ICE agents, and the protesters were making a ruckus. They were yelling. And then one of the ICE agents. They, The ICE agents, it looked like maybe they were yelling back. And then one of the ICE agents just charged at someone and just sh. Shoved them into the snow. And so it almost looked like fit of rage. I. I don't know. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:45:45] Speaker A: Inability to de. Escalate situations. Yeah. [00:45:50] Speaker B: And my understanding is it's very easy to sign up for ice. Like, there's no training involved. Yeah, you can get. I mean, there was a reporter recently who went through the process who, who's very outspoken about being anti ice, and they had admitted her to or marked her down as an employee before even she filled out any of the paperwork and stuff. [00:46:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think they even did a background check on her before. [00:46:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:24] Speaker A: Excuse me. Before she got the like, hey, congratulations, welcome to ICE letter. So. Yeah, yeah, it feels, really, feels really sketchy, honestly. Yeah. [00:46:39] Speaker B: So how are. I guess one of my big questions is how are Christians responding locally? Like you, you, you talked about some of what you and your church is doing. Is that kind of a, A unified response? Are a lot of people doing that? Are you guys unique in that? Do you face opposition in that and specifically focused on within the church, the broader church? [00:47:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I, from my perspective, it seems like there's a pretty unified response to this situation from churches. On actually Wednesday 2. So two days ago, I was invited to attend a gathering of church leaders and pastors to hear from immigrant church leaders and pastors about what was happening in their communities. And it was hosted by a local church here. There were, to my guesstimation, there were like 200 people in the room. We were all there to hear from immigrant pastors and church leaders. And there was a time of resource sharing. So. And there was everything from free legal help to medical clinics. Free medical clinics to like, food. Food shelves, rent assistance. Yeah, I think those are the four big things that, that kept popping up of different churches that had, to varying degrees started these kinds of relief efforts for, for the community. Yeah, I, I don't, obviously don't know what all the churches in the Twin Cities area are doing or saying. I, yeah, there, there are some churches that have just been quiet. They haven't said anything. And so that, yeah, It's. But there is a pretty unified connection between a lot of different churches and it's all different, different denominations. And I think that's what's really beautiful is like, it's. We're being the body of Christ to these people. Yeah. [00:49:23] Speaker B: So are there. Have you sensed, or. I'm gathering you haven't really, but is there. Are there people who look at what you all are doing and think that you're somehow assisting criminals or assisting, like an open border mindset? [00:49:42] Speaker A: I haven't received that kind of feedback personally. Yeah. I don't. I. I haven't heard that others have gotten that. Yeah. So I. Yeah, yeah. [00:49:58] Speaker B: And that's. I mean, excuse me. I just. We don't. Where we are here in Canyon City, there's not a large. There are some immigrants, but there's not a large immigrant community. But in la, a lot of it came back to. Yeah, people immigrating. Is that when it's coming in or emigrating? Immigrating is in. Emigrating is out. [00:50:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:27] Speaker B: Doing it because of, like you said, safety reasons or tremendous poverty, so forth, and then the trying to get legal citizenship and so forth. There is a unique dynamic in LA with more people illegal, illegally crossing the border. That's not, that's not really happening in Minneapolis. I don't. I don't know how it could happen in Minneapolis. Is that a. [00:50:59] Speaker A: Not that I'm aware of. I mean, I'm sure that there are people who are technically undocumented because of kind of what you said earlier. Like, they got here and then things get delayed and court appointments, and then they show up and then they're missing one signature, so then they have to go get that and, you know, the whole kind of rigmarole of the, of the legal system. So I don't deny that. I'm sure there are people who don't have the proper documentation or have it up to date, and I don't know what the numbers of that would be. But in general, I would say the immigrants that are here aren't here for nefarious activity. They're like. They're here because they're here because of war, of persecution, lack of resources. Um, and, and the thing that I think of is, like, from my perspective, I would not necessarily choose to leave my home, leave my family, leave the culture that I'm familiar with, and go to a completely different place for just no reason. So, like, I think of what would those reasons be and often is like, kind of life or death situations. And, and I think that that's what it is for a lot of these immigrants too, and especially refugees because they've been granted legal protection here because of what they're fleeing from their home countries. Yeah, yeah. [00:52:32] Speaker B: What is something as we, you and I, have this conversation or you just kind of observe it on social media or other friends of yours, what's something about this crisis that people seem to misunderstand or overlook? [00:52:51] Speaker A: I think there's a couple things that come to mind. One of them, I think is that this, this whole thing is, it's a, it's a crisis of human rights and caring and like caring for humanity and for people. Yes, there's a lot of politics wrapped up in it too. But ultimately, like when I, when I said earlier, I was like, I can't be a bystander in this, it was because I can't stand by and watch families hiding in their homes with no access to food. Like, if someone's hungry, feed them. If they need clothes, give them clothes. If they need medical care, help get them medical care. Like, I don't, I don't necessarily care what papers say or don't say about if you can or can't be here. If, if someone needs, needs food, give them food. So that, that was what compelled me to, to join a pod and start doing what I've been doing. And I think, I think the other thing is, especially for folks who maybe aren't here in Minneapolis, this would apply if you are too. Is often it can be hard to know what to believe on social media or what to believe from news sources. And I would say, like, definitely do your research. Like, look up news sources and be mindful of where you're getting your information from. And also don't immediately reject something just because it makes you uncomfortable. I think often, I know I have a tendency to do this too. Like if something doesn't quite align with where I'm at politically or faith wise, I immediately want to reject it. And instead I would encourage people to, you don't have to say you're all on board. You don't have to say that you're 100 supportive, but maybe just hold that thing and sit with it and maybe ask yourself, why is this making me uncomfortable? Why am I, why am I wanting to reject this immediately? What it, what is. What in me is wanting to, to deny this or to look away. [00:55:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. It's okay for us to be uncomfortable and even to be like, One of the things that I've learned in life is whenever there are People that I'm really disagreeing with or I just like, how can you think that way or whatever to be? When I become proximate to them and they're like, begin to see things, not just interacting with their arguments, but actually get to see life and how they're experiencing it, then I at least have a better understanding of where they're coming from. And it's not as hard to just like, wipe it off as, oh, they're just crazy or whatever. And so for me, that moving from inner city to a more rural setting, that was kind of learning. Like, why. Why do people in the rural areas of America have the view that they do toward. Towards big cities? Like becoming proximate with them and talking to our neighbors and, you know, asking questions. And I think what I hear you saying is something similar. Obviously, maybe we can't become just move to Minneapolis, but even just like, we have lots of access to firsthand accounts, whether that's on Instagram or different blogs or anything online where people who actually live there are talking about what's going on and, and spending time kind of sitting in that before we form our conclusions and yeah, make our takes is. [00:57:27] Speaker A: Like, don't live in an echo chamber of. Of your own beliefs. [00:57:32] Speaker B: Like, yeah. [00:57:34] Speaker A: Be open to hearing from other people who think differently than you and make different choices than what you would make. Yeah. [00:57:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So what are, are there. Are there ways people can help out specifically? You know, I'm in Colorado and there's people here in Colorado that I can help. But if I want to help with some of the urgent stuff in Minneapolis right now, are there ways I can do that or are there things that people can connect with online and so forth? [00:58:12] Speaker A: Yeah, there are. I can think of three things and I can. I'll send you links to these if you want them. [00:58:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:21] Speaker A: So there is a hygiene bank that's operated out of my church that we have a lot of supplies, but I know some things especially like diapers and formula are running low. So I can get a link to that for people. The wish list for people to. To purchase items for that if they would like to. There's also a GoFundMe for rent support that goes to. Directly to helping families stay housed. And. And then prayer, like, prayer is huge in all of this. Praying for the families especially directly affected by it. The. The immigrant families who are. Some of them have, yeah. Suffered the unspeakable of detention and separation and traumatic things like that. And then just the constant living in fear is also really, really hard. Pray for church leaders, especially the immigrant church leaders, as they navigate this and pray for our country's leaders that, that they would make good choices and. [00:59:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And kind of speaking of that, has things kind of died down because the main ICE director was. He was removed recently. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, he was removed. And I actually just saw this week that the. Was it Border Patrol czar Tom Holman, I think, announced that they were discontinuing Operation Metro Surge. I don't know what that means. There wasn't really any detail given. So presumably it means that there won't be any more ICE agents around. But I'm also like, I don't know. There's been a lot of things said that haven't been followed through on, so kind of see what happens. But even thinking about when eventually families aren't afraid to send their children to school and moms and dads aren't afraid to go to work and parents can go get groceries for their kids without fear of being detained, there's still a lot of recovery that's going to be needed from, like the weeks of missed work. A lot of these families are vulnerable families that live paycheck to paycheck, so it's, it's not like they'll be immediately back on their feet. And then I think also of just the impact on mental health that this is going to have on children especially, but even the adults, just the toll that it's taking on their minds and their hearts. So there's going to be a lot of support needed in that area. And then a lot of these kids have either been doing online school or not in school at all for, you know, eight to ten weeks. And I've. I've heard from some teachers that, that it feels like things are getting back to like, Covid times with children not in school, children falling behind. So there's going to be a lot of recovery in the education sector as well. That'll be needed. [01:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:08] Speaker A: So, yeah, even if and when the last ICE agent leaves, it doesn't mean it's over. It's still going to be. There's still going to be a lot of impact and suffering and recovery needed from what's happened. [01:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And just the fact that some basic laws have been violated like that. It'll take a while for the fear of, like, we thought we were all good and now that was totally gone. So even if ICE agents are removed, it's said that it's not happening. Like, I can imagine that'll take time to rebuild that trust. [01:02:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. [01:02:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, thanks, Sonya, for coming on and sharing a firsthand account. [01:02:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for inviting me and letting me share. [01:03:05] Speaker B: Absolutely. Blessings as you continue in your work and your internship there. I'm sure that. Yeah. As you pointed out, the mental health aspect of some of these events, of what you are doing through vocation, part of why I wanted to talk to you is because because it's not your vocation to work specifically with immigrants, but you're finding ways to do it. And yet I'm sure even in your vocation, this is going to be a tremendous avenue of ministry for people as you bump into them. [01:03:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it is and will be. Yeah. Thank you. [01:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, thanks for talking and we will talk with you later. [01:03:55] Speaker A: All right. Sounds good.