Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: For me personally and for many people I know and many of the students that I've had over the years, the crisis is that we thought that evangelicals believed certain things that we were taught. And what we're seeing happening in the church and the culture and the in leading evangelicals now is that their actions and are not in accordance with what we what we thought that they believed. Now, where, where's the contradiction? Where's the, you know, where is the parting of the ways? Like that question, I think, is the heart of the crisis.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Hello and welcome back to Unfeigned Christianity, where we are on a journey of becoming a people who are theologically anchored in Jesus, emotionally healthy, so that we can love and disciple others. Well, today I'm excited to have on the podcast Karen Swallow Pryor. She's the author of a number of books, but the one I wanted to discuss with her particularly is the book the Evangelical How Stories, Images, and Metaphors Created a Culture in Crisis.
It was a pleasure to talk with Karen, who spent 21 years teaching English at Liberty University, the world's largest evangelical university. She has a PhD in English Literature, a former seminary professor, and a lifelong evangelical who loves the movement enough to tell the truth. So this isn't a book tearing apart Christianity or evangelicalism, but rather kind of analyzing how did we get to where we are. She wrote the book in 2023, so it's a few years old already, but it's still a very relevant book to understanding the crisis that the evangelical church is in today. In our conversation, we get into what a social imaginary is and why evangelicals desperately need to understand theirs, how an overemphasis on conversion as a singular event has produced shallow, immature faith, why sentimentality and worship in Christian art leaves us emotionally high but practically unprepared, and so much more. I'm excited for this episode. I hope you enjoy it. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Karen Swallow Prior.
[00:02:18] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:02:22] Speaker B: Welcome, Karen, to Unfeigned Christianity.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: Thanks for having me, Asher.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: It's good to have you on. I have followed you from afar, probably primarily on Twitter or X, whatever it's called now. You're someone I've enjoyed following there and then I've read one of your works, the the one we'll discuss today, the Evangelical Imagination. And then I've heard you on several different podcasts being interviewed. I think it was the Holy Post podcast back before you published the book.
[00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I've been on there a couple of times, I think. So, yeah, they're fun.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: That really intrigued. That conversation, one of those conversations kind of around 20, 20, 2021, somewhere in there, kind of piqued my interest in what you had to say regarding the evangelical imagination.
And so, yeah, it's. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast.
You. For, for those of you that don't. For those in my audience that don't know you, why don't you give us a little bit of the background, who you are, what, where you've come from, as far as your career and so forth, what you're doing, what led to writing the Evangelical imagination.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So I am a former English professor, so I have a PhD in English and sort of come to all of this on 21 years of teaching at Liberty University, which is kind of known as the world's largest evangelical university.
And so teaching English there for so many years, I was, you know, saturated in evangelical culture, teaching evangelical students. I am evangelical myself. I left there and taught at a Southern Baptist seminary for a few years and left there and am just now really just doing some side jobs, teaching, but writing full time and doing a lot of speaking.
So I'm just, you know, need a break from evangelical institutions.
And that was even before what I wrote about in this book. But I think we all, we all know we live, if we live in America today, if we're actually we live anywhere in the world today, we know evangelicalism is going through kind of a crisis, America is going through a crisis, the church is going through a crisis. And so I've kind of been in that trajectory for a couple of decades. And so this book reflects a certain point that I was in, you know, through the couple of years of writing it and the couple years that have followed it being published. But the really, the sort of direct origin of the book was teaching in this evangelical environment for a couple of decades, teaching students who grew up largely in the evangelical environment. And I teach British literature, teach a lot of British Victorian literature. And over the years in teaching Victorian literature especially, which is an age in England very much defined and characterized by the rise of evangelicalism, I would find my students, when we would discuss something in Victorian literature, my students would say, oh, that's what I was taught in the 20th century or the 21st century. And so we would just begin. I would ask them this question, well, is this idea, this concept, this practice, is it, you know, is it really biblical? Is it really Christian, or is it just Victorian?
And so that was kind of the seeds of the book. And then I started looking over the 300 years of evangelical history and studying the concept of social imaginaries from Charles Taylor and understanding that, you know, there are a lot of histories written about evangelicalism, a lot of political science, a lot of sociology, even some cultural criticism. But I just thought, you know, the evangelical kills have a social imaginary, social imaginaries. I mean, I know there's no one evangelicalism, but there are, you know, sort of under the surface, metaphors, images, stories, expectations of what, how things should go and what evangelicalism means. And so that little. Those kinds of incidents in the classroom grew into a desire to explore some of the defining metaphors of evangelicalism and, and the power that they have for good or ill, in shaping what we understand about the movement and our faith and ourselves in this world now.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for giving that background and context.
Your.
The subtitle for the book, How Stories, Images and Metaphors create a Culture in Crisis.
What is the crisis that you're, I mean, you mentioned the church is in crisis. I think we all resonate with that. But just, just to hear more, the framing for the book, what is the crisis that you see coming through in, in the stories and images and metaphors that we use?
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah, so, I mean that could be a whole hour long conversation in itself. And actually I don't think. Yeah, so I, and I just to even try to answer that question, it's almost a different answer every, every week. But, but no, so I would say, and of course there's the political layer to this that we probably can't overlook, but I want to be broader than that and say for, for me personally and for many people I know and many of the students that I've had over the years, the crisis is that we thought that evangelicals believed certain things that we were taught and what we're seeing happening in the church and the culture and the, in leading evangelicals now is that they're actions and not in accordance with what, what we thought that they believed. Now where, where's the contradiction? Where's the, you know, where is the parting of the ways? Like that question, I think is the heart of the crisis. We, we don't really asking what happened? Why, why did we think. Yeah, we believed one thing and now it looks like something else. Were we wrong? Were they wrong? Did something change?
[00:08:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's clearly a lot of division and just looking at things totally different where, where it's.
I, I guess one question that I would have because I, I talk about this with my siblings who, you know, I'm, I'm I'm the middle of five. So we range from roughly close to 40 all the way down to about 25.
No, 30. We're almost. We're all 30 now. That's crazy.
It can feel like it's a generational gap at times.
And yet you are. And you mentioned you. You kind of got into this through your teaching.
Is it a generational gap or are there people. I mean, I would see you as someone who also is wrestling with this gap, or I think of other people, like Beth Moore or Russell Moore, like some other older evangelicals who are identifying this conflict as well.
Is it generational or is it.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: No, I mean, that's a really good question. I do think it's generational, but I think some of us are listening to the younger generation. Right. I mean, me, I had no choice. I'm in. I'm in the classroom with them every day. I'm. I'm teaching them, but I'm also learning from them. And so I do think that there is a generational split. So I think that one generation or two generations ago, they were teaching something and saying that. And even I. Older when, you know, just to use the prime example everyone uses, but it really is telling is, you know, the same generation that told said over and over that, you know, Bill Clinton was unacceptable as a candidate for president because character matters. Like, I mean, I was all in on that and I didn't know any. I didn't get the memo about changing our mind the next time around. Right. And so, I mean, that's just one example. But it is, I think, because of when it happened, I wasn't. I was at. I was at however old I was, I don't know. But I was still forming as an evangelical and learning and growing. And so I really internalized that message. And that's just sort of the beginning of what the next generation has seen over and over. And so I do think it is generational, but I also think it can it for some of us, it transcends generation.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So give us a synopsis of the book as a whole. And yeah. How. What are the stories, images, metaphors that have created the culture that we have that's in crisis?
And yeah, we can look into some of those more specifically.
[00:11:01] Speaker A: Sure, sure. So just another bit of background. I did my PhD dissertation on novelist and writer from Great Britain who.
Who lived in the 18th and 19th centuries and was an evangelical. And so doing that work is what really introduced me to sort of the academic definition of evangelicalism, which is called the Bebbington Quadrilateral. And it's, you know, it's basically looking at the movement which is not confined to any particular denomination or country or part of the world. It started in the transatlantic America and England and is defined by its re. Emphasis on the centrality of the Bible, the centrality of Christ's crucifixion on the cross, the centrality of the conversion experience, and the centrality of activism, missions and. Or anything else. And so there's a historical definition of evangelicalism, and as it began 300 years ago in the early 18th century, that's my area of expertise and study. So I'm bringing all of that to my teaching, into my thinking and my own understanding of myself as an evangelical. I, when I discovered this person and this movement and this definition, I thought, oh, yes, that's what I am. I'm evangelical. And so, so that's sort of the. The working definition that I. That I use in the book, but that I've. That I've had and that most evangelicals are defined by, apart from polls and surveys. But that's another story.
And so in the book, I'm sort of giving that brief history of evangelicalism.
But then I'm saying I'm bringing to that the definition I mentioned earlier of Charles Taylor's social imaginaries. Charles Taylor is a living philosopher. He wrote. His most famous book is A Secular Age, but he wrote a smaller book longer ago called Social Imaginaries, where he's talking about how as communities and cultures, we are told stories and we carry images and metaphors that are just part of our. Part of our community and part of our experience that we might not even think about. And every community has them and has several.
We just live in social imaginaries. And it's not an example I use in the book, but for anyone who's just sort of being introduced to this as a helpful example, the American Dream is a perfect example of a metaphor that's in our social imaginary. I mean, it's just something we all sort of know. We might not have an actual definition, but we've heard of the American Dream. We've actually been influenced by the American Dream, whether we think about it or not. It's something that drives our economics, it drives our education and work choices. That's a great example of something that's in our collective social imaginary. So all communities have them. And I wanted to say, okay, what has made evangelicals, evangelicals in our imaginations over these 300 years? And as an evangelical what, what is good about that and where did we kind of go wrong? And so I set that up and then covered what I define. Again, the list is endless. I just, I only had so much room and so many chapters to write. So I devote a chapter to what I see as the key metaphors and images and sort of stories of evangelicalism, starting with awakening, then conversion and testimony, sentimentality, materialism, improvement, like, you know, all kinds of improvement in progress. Empire, reformation, I might have skipped a couple there. But basically, you know, this sort of central metaphors of what it means to be an evangelical that we had all this time and we still carry with us.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's good. You talk, I think the very last one, you talk about the Rapture and.
[00:14:50] Speaker A: Oh yes, the Rapture. Yeah.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Which is something I've thought about a lot in. I've, I'm on the tail end of completing a Bachelor's of Biblical studies and just realizing how little scripture actually talks about a rapture and, and how large
[00:15:07] Speaker A: it looms in our imagination. Right, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: So you're, you mentioned one of your early chapters talks about conversion and the, the way we value as evangelicals, these conversion stories.
If our imagination views conversion as a singular past tense event, how does that impact our approach to long term discipleship?
[00:15:36] Speaker A: Yeah, See, this is. Conversion is a great way to start talking about what I'm trying to do in this book because again, I've said I'm evangelical and so I actually believe in conversion as a sort of event that happens in our life. You're kind of a one moment event. I do believe in that. But this is kind. This is, if we emphasize that so much that we actually neglect, and this is getting toward the answer to your question, neglect the importance of growth and discipleship and sanctification and sort of the uneven journey that we're all going to have in our faith if we neglect those things and just emphasize the conversion, which is a distortion, I think, of what the Bible says about conversion and I talk about that. Then, then I think what we end up with actually is kind of what we have ended up with is an immature, shallow understanding of what Christianity is. Where people check a box, answer a poll or survey, say, yes, I'm born again, but you know, don't necessarily embrace the other parts of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. So conversion is something that evangelicals emphasize. They kind of brought that back to the church in the, in 18th century England because, you know, because at that time if you were born into the church, you were Considered already a Christian and evangelicals wanted to bring back. No, you. You do have to have a conversion experience. And again, I do believe that's true. But they don't always have to be dramatic. They can even be. As I talk about in the book, I accepted Jesus at such a young age, being raised in a Christian home, that I actually don't remember that moment.
And so I had sort of my own crisis, like, oh, did I ever do it? I better say the prayer again or go forward again just to make sure. Because that emphasis on conversion minimized what I already knew that I had in a relationship with Jesus. And so that kind of. That manifestation of conversion is a distortion of its essential truth.
[00:17:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
So what. What I'm hearing and what I got out of the book was is that this, like, just because someone doesn't have a flashy past conversion story to tell doesn't mean they're not in the process of being converted or in discipleship that long road.
Also, we create, like, for people we want as our heroes, we can tend to create conversion stories. And a classic example that, I mean, it maybe, maybe it's been talked about enough, but one that I, like you mentioned earlier, like, Bill Clinton was seen as an immoral man, and yet the evangelical church largely is the one that put into office Donald Trump.
And part of that process include having a conversion story to tell about.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: He's a baby Christian is what it was said. Right. He's a baby Christian. And that was said when he was first elected. And now people are kind of backing off of that and then saying, you know, saying, well, you know, I don't think he's a Christian, but he's a king, Cyrus. Right. And so, yeah, but the first. But he got his foot in the door by the proclamation that he was, you know, he had had a conversion experience. Everything needed to be spun that way.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
So our legitimacy in the faith has less to do. You're not denying the conversion in the sense of, like, turning away from what you were once pursuing, but you're suggesting that true discipleship and following Jesus is not just that, but then a life that is built off of that and pursuing Jesus and the kingdom of God.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean, the Bible bears this out as well. I mean, it. It talks about the fruit of the spirit, and it talks about evidence of our salvation and perseverance of our faith. And so it's all in there. But because evangelicals, in that historical moment in the 18th century had a need, a real need to emphasize conversion. Again, like, oh, you guys, let's not forget this.
We've kind of overemphasized it over the years, and I'm suggesting, saying this is a true metaphor, let's use it, but also let's not distort it. Let's bring it back into balance with other truths, like our need to disciple and to grow and to be sanctified and to bear evidence of our salvation.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's good.
In the book, you describe how Victorian sensibilities often masquerade biblical mandates. I'm not sure if that's exactly how you word it, but that idea.
What do you mean by that? And how do you begin. Or how do we begin the process of unbundling our cultural preferences from core doctrines without losing our faith in the process?
[00:20:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that. I mean, that's really the key question, and that's actually what I'm trying to demonstrate in the book, is that we. Is not only that we can, but we should unbundle our cultural assumptions from the essentials of the faith, and we can do that and should do that without losing our faith. And, you know, I. I talk a lot about the Victorian age in the book and its sort of metaphors and assumptions because as I mentioned earlier, of how the Victorian age rose right up alongside evangelicalism and had an. Evangelicalism actually kind of created all the things that we associate with the Victorian age. That's an example or a parallel of what's happening now. I mean, we often, I think most of us can easily see, or at least if not easily understand that a lot of what is considered evangelicalism today and its practices and manners is very tied to simply being American, American values and American assumptions. And so that's really just a parallel to what happened in the 18th and 19th centuries. And so all I'm saying, it's a lot, but it's not, you know, it's actually really simple, is that we are all creatures of culture. God designed it that way. I mean, we're all born in times and places that they have their cultural distinctives. And if we're Christians, we're going to experience and practice our Christianity in our particular cultural context. And. And when Christianity is in power, then the culture and Christianity are much more likely to become intertwined. And so we just simply need to be able to recognize when something is actually of, you know, of the essence of the Bible and Christianity and when it's cultural. And to say it's cultural doesn't even necessarily mean it's bad. I mean, I love culture. Culture is fine.
It's Bad and good. It's a mixture.
But to just be able to say, you know, to. To perhaps. And this isn't, you know, I. May I touch on some of these in the book's book, but these are just other examples just to say that, you know, the way that we worship in a particular church, service in a particular church building probably reflects more of our culture, just because. And that's okay. Like I want to have a padded, comfortable seat in church because, you know, it's. And that's okay. That's fine. It's not to say that, but it's very much of our culture, because not every time in place is a. Able to have that. So there's nothing bad or good about it, but just to recognize that's an American experience, to have this level of physical comfort. And it's not necessarily bad, but it does become bad when it takes priority over things that are more important according to the teaching of our faith. And so just making that distinction and then being able to disentangle them is what we are actually all called to do for all Christians across all time and history have had to do the same thing, have had the same challenge.
It's harder for us when we live in a dominant culture where Christianity has had such influence because it's just. They're all. It's meshed together even more tightly. So it just makes it more challenging.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
What are some. What are some ways that Victorian sensibilities have influenced.
I think in the book, if I remember correctly, you talk about even just household dynamics and roles.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: And so forth.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, of course, you know, one thing that was really, you know, characterized the Victorian age was the Industrial Revolution. And so the Industrial Revolution changed the nature of work and family and even housing in dramatic and revolutionary ways. And so it created, you know, an environment in which work became more dangerous and more physically difficult than it was when people were mainly tending the fields by hand. And so that set up dynamics in which it was more likely for men and women to either work separately or for the woman to do work at home and the man to go into the. To the factory. So which was a reality brought not by biblical teaching, but a reality brought by technology.
But somehow that eventually got intertwined with Christianity. And so it became more Christian for the woman to stay home and for the man to go to work, which is not. That's not in the Bible at all. And so this idea of separate spheres for men and women and for a man's success and respect to be elevated if his Wife is able to stay at home.
That's an example that was very prominent in the Victorian age. And because it got intertwined into Christian, you know, into the Christian culture, it became understood to be the Christian way of life.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And so how. How do.
What do. What do you say to someone who would say, you say, you say it's not biblical at all. Adam is told to tend the garden. Isn't there a biblical vision of men going out and conquering and women.
I don't know if there's quite as clear example of women staying at home, but.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: Yeah, right, right. I mean, obviously there's some biological realities that, you know, if, you know that the woman is going to have to stay home for a while if she has a baby, like, which is. Which is. Is biological and natural.
And so whether you're a Christian or not. Right.
And so there are those realities. But. But the creation mandate was given to both Adam and to Eve, and they both labored in the garden. And so again, they. They labored one way. They labored together in the garden. Adam. Adam named the animals, and that was the one job he was given until he saw, then God brought him Eve. But the nature of their work and their work together was different, not because of what the Bible said or what God said, but because of the culture that they lived in. And so those changes will always be happening. And that's why we need to recognize that, you know, if something is not true of Christians in every time, in every place, then it's not essential for us either. It might be wisdom in a particular time and place, it might be a blessing or benefit in a particular time and place, but it's not necessarily Christian, if that makes sense.
[00:27:16] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that. That does make sense. And. And what I experienced in reading the book is, is helping to see kind of this stripping away of the cultural dynamics, because when we're looking through our cultural lens, it's easy to kind of put that back into the scriptural text.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: When it, when it's just maybe eluded, or you could.
[00:27:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: But rather, this is what the text says.
Our culture has shaped us in this way. It may not be true. And what I heard, hearing you saying earlier, it's not. Just because it's cultural doesn't mean it's bad, but to create a dogma around it is where it begins to create a culture in crisis.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I wish I had put it that way in my book, but yes, exactly. Well, it took me a lot more. Took me a lot more words to say it, but you put it very well there, very succinctly.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: You've written that sentimentality is a perversion of the imagination because it seeks the reward of an emotion without the reality behind it. Describe, first of all, describe what you mean by sentimentality. What are we talking about with sentimentality?
[00:28:28] Speaker A: Yes, so sentimentality is when emotion is elevated beyond the emotional feeling or the emotional reminder or memory is elevated beyond the actual event or value.
So something that has sentimental value is just because of the emotion that's attached to it, not as monetary value. We become sentimental about things because it arouses emotions in us that, you know, like nostalgia or, you know, or happiness or whatever emotion. Sentimentality is simply emotion. And so sentimentalism is when the emotion exceeds what is actually warranted by reality in the situation. Emotions are not bad and even sentimentality is not bad. But it's really more of a recognition, like are the emotions wrapped up in this really what is, you know, is what is appropriate for this object, this experience, this understanding, you know, and again, to go back to really, it's earlier than the Victorian age, but right around, you know, in the 18th century leading up to it, there was this short lived movement called the cult of sensibility. It has to do with a lot of philosophy that was developing at the time, but in literature and art it came to be this thing where if you, that people would really try to have a very emotional experience through art, like go to the play or look at a painting or read a, you know, a dramatic novel and have an emotional experience for its own sake. And that emotional experience was considered to be a measure of their virtue. Like, I feel really sad about this, so I'm a very virtuous person or I feel very happy for this, you know, this couple in this novel who ends up together. And so I'm a virtuous person.
So that the cult of sensibility was replacing actual virtue with an emotional response. And it was very short lived, but it still, you know, it still had an effect.
And the way that we see it expressed in, you know, contemporary evangelicalism. And this is sort of a cliche and a stereotype, but it's, it is so, because it's true, is that tendency to have, for example, worship experiences or worship songs that are very emotional, but might not necessarily have a lot of doctrinal truth or even just have any action that is sustained after the, after the music is over.
And we see a lot of that in evangelical art in the movies and in the music, as I said, in the art Such as it is. I think I point to. Yeah, I spend a lot of time on Thomas Kincaid, the painter of light, who paints images that are very homey and well lit and evoke nostalgia and sentimentality but aren't really reflective of reality in any way at all.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: And not only that, but he had some immorality or something that I can't remember.
[00:31:26] Speaker A: He was actually. Yeah, ironically, the painter of light was really rather corrupt and degenerate and died at a young age as a result of a destructive lifestyle.
So it's really a dramatic example of the kind of, I mean we could say hypocrisy, but I want to say irony of, you know, just if you emphasize something so much and distort it so much, then it kind of it going to lead to neglect in other areas. That's just sort of a natural law, I think.
[00:32:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think of weekend conferences where you go with friends and it feels like you have this major breakthrough and then you come back home and you're longing for that spiritual high of sorts again. That, that's a picture of where, yeah, there may have been some good stuff that happened, but it, the, the emotion has overextended what the actual thing that happened in your reality. Yeah, yeah.
How does an over reliance on sentimental stories or worship hinder our ability to face the actual messy suffering of people we are trying to disciple?
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Hmm, that's a good question. So I think, you know, I think one of the first harms it does to ourselves because it gives a distorted sense of what it means to have a strong faith and to be a strong Christian. If we think that the strength of our faith and the strength of Christ, the, the object of our faith depends on our emotional state, then we are woefully wrong. And we will constantly be trying to refill that and refill that rather than through false things, rather than trust and understand the steady source of our faith, which is Christ, who is never changing. On the other hand, we can, you know, the prosperity gospel is an example of how we can, it can become distorted and we can misjudge or misunderstand people who may be suffering. And we are like, well you, you know, you are having your suffering is because you did something wrong or you, you aren't close enough to God or you didn't pray enough. So there are a lot of different distortions that we can have because we are looking to emotion or even spiritual highs to be the measure of reality when it's not really at all.
[00:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good.
[00:33:52] Speaker A: And you know I'll just say the other thing is that we often like, you know, in our art, especially if we present this picture of where the characters are, there are terrible villains who, who you know, hate God. So they hate you and you're, you know, some sort of of a martyr for your faith in this hostile environment. To Christians, those kinds of portrayals of our faith and our life in this world lend themselves to whipped up emotions and black and white kind of under understandings that again don't match with reality. So it leaves us ill equipped to deal with the real people who are much more complicated and even with ourselves we're much more complicated than that.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
You talk in your book about the self improvement and how the evangelical imagination has been formed to kind of pursue this self improvement.
We often confuse the Victorian ideal of self improvement with biblical process of sanctification. How does the pressure to, to appear improved or polished prevent us from the kind of honest confession that is necessary for true spiritual health?
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Another great question now, you know, I sort of COVID the history of the idea of improvement in the book, which was a modern concept because think about a history, a more ancient history where things didn't change for thousands of years. So things didn't change in you know, your, your family and your station and the way of life that you had then. You didn't necessarily even think about improvement because things didn't change like that. But with the modern age and, and you know, the scientific revolution and the Enlightenment, the idea of things changing and improving became possible because things actually were changing and improving. Well again improvement isn't bad, but it's a, as a cultural concept when it gets laid over Christianity then we, it came to replace or still replace sanctification that's done through the Holy Spirit with the kind of improvement that we see in solutions offered by well again, conferences. I've been to plenty but conferences or self improvement books or self help books, all of which became very popular again in the Victorian age and that popularity continues today. It can be authorized them be more subtle and nuanced but then on the other hand if you spend, I don't but I guess TikTok and Instagram are filled with these kinds of, you know, modern day versions of self improvement with tips and tricks and beauty advice and all of those things that it's a natural human tendency, but it's actually really a modern one. And again the problem is when we mistake sanctification and real spiritual growth with the external appearance of improvement and physical health and fitness, you can find all kinds of examples of Christians selling these things as though they're markers of our faith. And that's simply not true.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: If today's conversation stirred something in you, if you find yourself wanting to go deeper than just listening, the Unfeigned Christianity Membership Program might be exactly what you're looking for. It's a formation community for people who are serious about, about becoming theologically anchored and emotionally healthy so they can love and disciple others. Well, it's a real space where we do ongoing work together. Members get access to teaching resources and ongoing conversation through monthly mentorship calls. The kind of stuff that doesn't make it into the podcast, but shapes the people who are in it. You can join at www.asherwhitmer.com member and get started for as little as $5 a month, if you purchase an annual membership, you get a 20 discount. The link is in the show notes below. Yeah, I have a really personal question.
Excuse me. As it pertains to this, you talked about the, the industrialization of this self improvement and authors and speakers and stuff monetizing this self improvement. And that's something I've, I've self published one book around. It's more just kind of my story in finding sexual healing and purity and so forth. I dream and am in the process of writing more books and you yourself are an author, even podcasting so forth. To be able to do this full time would be a dream come true.
Is that am I leaning into this industrialization of improving one's life around things that really ultimately need the Holy Spirit to create true, genuine change in us? How do we navigate that as creatives, as authors, teachers or aspiring authors without just participating in the industrialization of self improvement?
Hmm.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: Wow. That's a really, really good question. And you know, there is, there is no one bright line that divides, you know, whatever good we might be doing in a good way from, you know, from, from this, this industry that's corrupt.
So what I would say is, I mean there is, as human beings, we learn from one another. As Christians, we know that the Bible talks about certain giftings like the gifting to teach. And so, and to, so we are called, at least some of us are called to teach. But even as Christians in the church, but also as human beings, this is just part of the nature of being a human being is to learn from one another. We're social animals, we're communal animals. And so there's an element of that at a certain point, you know, it becomes corrupt when we compromise on other things. So for example, an Extreme example would be someone who's just selling snake oil out there that doesn't work at all for the sake of selling it and making the money.
That's an extreme example, but it is an exam. At some point, we get to that line where we're selling something for the sake of making the money as opposed to actually helping people. And so I think it can happen gradually and slowly. So I do think that we have to be cautious.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: Mm.
Yeah. Thank you.
Many Christians view fiction, and this is where I was. This is kind of maybe winding down our. Our question, our conversation here. But you. You are like your primary. Do I understand correctly? Kind of the primary thing you've taught is literature.
[00:40:38] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:38] Speaker B: Over.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Right.
[00:40:40] Speaker B: Over the years, and many Christians have viewed fiction as. Or art as merely entertainment or a luxury.
How can engage. How can engaging with great and sometimes difficult literature actually expand our capacity for empathy and help us love our neighbors, especially those who don't share our specific imagination or worldview?
[00:41:02] Speaker A: Well, reading literature is, you know, in our mind and our thinking, and the way we use language and imagination is really no different from sitting down and talking to a person. So we're hearing someone else's words, we're listening to their story. So if we would do that with a human being and learn something about the world and learn something about that human being, then we can do that with literature. It may be imaginative, but a person who wrote it is actually writing it in because it is a. It is a form of human communication. So at its most basic level, it's like listening to another person.
If. If listening to another person increases our imagination and empathy, then so does reading literature. And I can't think of anything that makes us more humane and more empathetic than listening to another person.
If we get a little bit more philosophical, I'll just add that, you know, we are creatures who are made in the image of a God who is the Word. And so when we actually engage with language and become more immersed in language, when it's used artistically and creatively, actually are sort of developing that part of our. Ourselves who are. That is made in the image of God, who is a God of words and who is the Word. And so we're expressing the very image of God in us when we use words, listen to words, appreciate words, because that is his nature and it's ours as well. And so reading literature is a wonderful way to do that.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
When I was younger in school, I hated school. I hated reading.
And I've come to enjoy reading where I It. It's. It can still be work for me. I have to discipline myself.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: We all do. I do. I do. Yeah. We all do.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:52] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not. It's not brain can. It's not brain candy. It. It takes engagement. Just like. Just like listening to someone actually listening.
We have to work at that, too, right?
[00:43:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah. I've discovered I don't have enough time to read fiction anymore. Like, I would love to read more fiction, is what I'm trying to say, because I've discovered some of the most profound demonstrations of salvation and what's happening have come through narrative form, where it's like, wow, that's a powerful picture of what's happening. What are some books, some specific books that you would suggest would help us expand our capacity for empathy or love for neighbors.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: Well, one of my favorite ones to recommend is Jane Eyre, which is actually. People think it's a romance, but it's really an allegory of the modern soul in search of being true to herself before her God. Jane Austen is amazing. Jane Austen is satirical and witty and funny, but also she makes fun of her characters, but she loves her characters, too. I think that's the best attitude to have. Sense and Sensibility is a great one. Pride and Prejudice and, you know, all literary works are shown in research. To develop empathy just because of the way that language, again, is used requires us to sort of make predictions and assessments and use our judgment because these stories show rather than tell. And so any great work of fiction is going to have that effect. I say just. Just read one that interests you and that you can enjoy, even if it does take effort, because it does take effort to engage critically with good literature.
It's not. It's not. It's not like. It's not brain candy. And there's nothing wrong with brain candy. I love to watch the Office over and over because I know every line by heart. I don't have to think about it, but literature does make us think, and that's hard.
[00:44:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, that's. That's probably the most encouraging thing that Karen Swallow Pryor says it takes her discipline to read as well.
[00:44:57] Speaker A: It does. It does.
[00:44:58] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:44:59] Speaker A: You're welcome.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: As we close out our time, I think of the way we started early on, talking about the culture of crisis. And if I am remembering your story, I think you were fairly key in bringing, at least to the surface, some of the issues that were going on within Liberty University and the leadership there and so forth.
And if people aren't familiar with that. I mean, there's plenty of stuff online about it, what all has happened with Jerry Falwell Jr. And so forth, other dynamics.
But I guess a question that I often hear from others, or even ponder myself, is why stay?
And you identified yourself early on, as you are evangelical, so why are you still evangelical? What keeps you in the church at large, but even specifically in the evangelical church?
[00:45:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a. That's a fair and good question. I think the easiest answer for me to make, and it could be longer than this, but I. I think I stayed all along. And I think others left or they were never there to begin with. And I think. I think it would be easier to walk away.
And, you know, and many have, but I think again, it goes back to the essence. I still believe what I always believed. And the fact that others practice differently or really don't believe it, what they said they believed means that they left. I'm still here.
And some of us are finding each other. And it's not easy, but it's a moment in the church. Maybe it's a moment that's like the Reformation 500 years ago. That probably wasn't easy for the people in the church.
Whatever. Whichever part of the church at that time, they got through it and they handed us a legacy. And so I want to be found faithful so that those who come in the church behind me can also have a legacy and they can be faithful.
[00:47:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Amen. Well, thank you for being someone who is vocal, who's gracious. You are.
I think it was you. Did you have a post you had marched with Charlie Kirk? Yeah, at one point. Yeah.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: Yeah. At the march and I.
[00:47:22] Speaker B: In the middle of an event like that that is very inflammatory or kind of brings up the people who are, you know, frustrated at him and maybe lack an empathy for his death or for his family who is left behind. I found. I just found it really refreshing to see. I know you see things quite differently from Charlie Kirk, but to see that. That gracious article recounting how you knew him at least from that time and being someone who holds true firmly to true, at least historically historical evangelicalism, seeking after the way of Jesus and while also not afraid to call out the sins of our times or the heirs of our time. Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to come on here and have this conversation.
People can find your books on Amazon, but is there any. Do you have a website that.
[00:48:21] Speaker A: I do. My website is Karen swallowprior.com. it's very simple, but you can find just about anything you need there to take you wherever you want to go
[00:48:28] Speaker B: from there, whatever direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So definitely recommend looking up Karen Swallow Prior. Give her a follow on. Are you primarily primarily on Twitter? That's where I follow you.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: Well I mean I'm not very it becomes I'm there but I don't do as much Substack.
[00:48:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: Is where I'm doing most of my my writing and engaging now.
But I'm on all the socials so wherever you are you can find me.
[00:48:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:56] Speaker A: Except for tick tock. Not Tick tock.
[00:48:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not on tick tock either.
[00:49:01] Speaker A: Well you this is very encouraging to me. Thank you you for the honor of the conversation and the and the encouragement.
[00:49:08] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thanks again for coming on and we will talk to you later.
[00:49:14] Speaker A: Let me know when this is out and I'll share.
