Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:19 Hey, friends, welcome back, tofa Christianity, where we seek to reconcile human experiences with God and His words so that we can love God and others from a pure heart, A good conscience and sincere faith. I'm excited to have back on the show. I think this is the third time he's been back on the show, and the only person who's been on the show three times, I believe I've had a couple people on twice, but Keshawn Washington is on. It has been, last time he was on was March or April of 2020. And a lot of stuff happened. We were, he was on the end of 2019 and then the beginning of 2020. And we discussed,
Speaker 1 00:01:03 First of all, his testimony, I think was one of the first ones. And then, and then we got into the conversation of racism and, you know, how the church should respond to issues of racism in either in the church or in the culture. And then a ton of stuff happened in 2020 that had to do with race and, and some of the racial conflicts. So I asked him if he would be willing to just kind of discuss, you know, some observations of life since 2020. And so we get, we, we actually talk about a lot of different stuff. Talk about his journey of forgiveness with his parents, and then also some of what he's up to. He's, he's been doing some interesting work. He's working on a book right now, which you can also, you'll hear about it in our interview.
Speaker 1 00:01:52 And then I, for the Patreon part, uh, the expanded version of this podcast, I asked him to share some practical advice on how he can empower people, particularly youth. He shared a, a talk at Urban Youth Workers Retreat a couple years ago, specifically on this topic. And I had the privilege of sitting in a talk, and it was really good. He gave a lot of practical advice, really helpful advice that I have still thought about to this day. And so I thought, hey, I asked him if he could share some of that. He doesn't share the whole time, but it's a good 20, 25 minutes extra of stuff that is very helpful and relevant if you are, if you desire to empower people, period. Whether you're a teacher, whether you're a parent, whether you're a pastor, whether you're working in some sort of ministry, kid's ministry, discipleship ministry, yes, he draws from his experience of working with youth, but really the, the principles and the ideas that he gives are relevant for anyone as far as transferring ownership from yourself to somebody else where they now have ownership not only of their relationship with God, but of the particular program, whether it's a school, whether it's a kids club, whether it's church, um, I think he gives some really crucial advice for us in that.
Speaker 1 00:03:22 And that's, you can access as a member of UNFI Christianity, which just as a little plug, we are running our end of the year full access enrollment. This is the best deal that we have of anything. You get full access to online courses, to all our member content for the same price of just a regular membership content. So maybe you're a little lost for $10 a month, you can become a patron member of Unpayed Christianity. And that gets you all our archived member subscriber only articles and exclusive podcast interviews. There's over 250 articles and podcast interviews. Sorry. There's, I think there's over 250 just articles period in the archives that you can access as a member. Plus we usually release one to two a month, and then we have one to two or more. It kinda depends on the season exclusive interviews where yes, maybe the bulk of the interview was, was available to free for everybody.
Speaker 1 00:04:22 But then there's a, a portion that is expanded. It's, it's only reserved for members, so you get access to all that normally for $10 a month, but you don't get access to the online courses such as finding my place in God's story. I just recently, uh, launched the second round of that course, uh, enrollment for that. And so if you want to have access to all the course material, enroll now for the next 30 days. We have an end of year full access enrollment, which gets you everything plus the audiobook. I just recently released the audiobook of Live Free. You get access to that. Everything else you get access. Instead of paying $35 for the course, you could pay $10 for the Finding My Place in God's Story course. You could get the audio book, plus you could access all member content. So I'm just giving that plug here right now.
Speaker 1 00:05:15 If, if you would like to access the expanded version of this podcast episode with keshaun. Now, here's the other thing. In the interview, we're also gonna talk about Keisha's Patreon. And so if you can only give to one, if you can only become a member of one person, whether it's Keshaun or me, I want you to go and become a member of him. He's doing some really good work, and so go support him. You get access to some different, uh, series of reviews and even just talks. I think he has, um, uh, monthly talks that he calls cu uh, brilliance in Color. I hope I get the title right. I should looked that up up before I started recording this. But that's all only available to, to patron members. But if, if you can only, you know, become a member of him or me or John Doe, go become a member of keshaun. So I, if you want to access the expanded version of this one, you, you, you're gonna have to sign up for this membership, but you could then immediately cancel it and become a regular member of Keyshawn or whatever. I would be delighted if you go and support his work.
Speaker 1 00:06:44 All right. Hey, Keshawn, welcome back to Unpaying Christianity.
Speaker 2 00:06:48 Glad to be here.
Speaker 1 00:06:50 It's been two years, I think, I think it was like April, 2020 when I had you on here last.
Speaker 2 00:06:58 Yeah, it was Covid lockdown.
Speaker 1 00:07:00 Yeah. It just started what a, what a year that ended up being
Speaker 2 00:07:05 Yeah, <inaudible>.
Speaker 1 00:07:08 We, um, more recently, I mean, we, we've done a few things together through the restorative faith group. Um, but more recently we've had the opportunity of working more directly with you. Uh, you've kinda started some new things. What's, what's new with you? What are, what are you doing these days?
Speaker 2 00:07:29 Yeah, so I'm no longer teaching, um, at the school that I was teaching at. And that was quite a abrupt career switch for me. Um, I am still love in urban education, which I might get into later, but, um, I am, start, started a Patreon that was big for me to, um, start monetizing the work that I do. And, um, also started a business that, um, I'm not abandoning, but I was gonna be full-time. And now it's not, because I'm actually in starting training in January to become a, a 9 1 1 dispatcher. So, okay. I'm excited about that. That was a dream of mine, um, way back when I was a teenager. Um, but then I went into teaching, so it kind of got derailed. And now that I have the opportunity, um, that's gonna start in late January, so Okay. Those are the major things, um, that's going on in my life at this point.
Speaker 1 00:08:26 Yeah. So what is, what does a 9 1 1 dispatcher do? Or what all, what, what cultivated a dream for that in you?
Speaker 2 00:08:35 Yeah, so when I was a kid, um, I won't tell the, the full story when it's in my, it'll be in my book one day. Yeah. But, um, a family member came in my house and actually attacked my brother and Hmm, <affirmative> then that family member came and af came after me. And I was s to put it simply, and my life was on the line. I was in danger. Um, so I'm running around hiding in closets. Thankfully, this person is drunk, and so it's not, um, that hard to get away. But, um, it was a landline, a portable landline. We had just gotten it. Um, they hadn't just come out, but that was back when you had a lot of money, which we didn't, but it felt like you had high tech when you had a phone that you could carry around the house, right?
Speaker 2 00:09:19 Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and, uh, I was carrying that from, from room to room. I'm running and hiding up and down the stairs. He'd come down, chase me, I'd go back up and he'd try to find me, and on the phone with the dispatcher who was telling, asking me where I am, asking me to describe where I'm at. Um, I imagine they could track you where you're at eventually, but not as fast as you they could today. So what you tell them is very important, you know? And, um, and so I would say that that lady saved my life in a way because she kept me calm. She gave me instructions, she helped me to understand, um, what I was up against, the danger I was in just asking me questions. And there were a number of other times in my childhood that I felt that a dispatcher had brought peace to me in a time where whether it's someone's getting abused in my house, whether there's something going on, someone got shot, um, as a kid that was really meaningful.
Speaker 2 00:10:12 Mm-hmm. Um, not as I grew up, I didn't call the cops for almost anything, um, just from my, the stigma or the belief beliefs that I had. But, um, that literally a first responder, the person on the phone that gets you the help that you, gets you the help that you need, um, it's a, um, a very meaningful, um, job. And I, and I wanna work in a job that ministers to people that helps people. And so it's for the county, it's not really connected to the police force in any way except for the fact that if someone has been harmed or is going to harm someone, you simply tell the, the police, Hey, this is what's going on. Most of the calls are ems, fire, um, some of it's even utility, like just, yeah, there's a pull, there's a pull down. And, um, the biggest reason I wanna do it is I'm a great multitasker.
Speaker 2 00:11:06 Um, I like to communicate. It's like a hundred calls a day. And, um, I feel like it'll be a great way to, to do good at a job. You know, one of my philosophies in life is that people who do, who can do a good job, should, should fill jobs that, that need good people, you know, and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm not boasting myself to be a good person, but I am striving to be a good dispatcher because I've also had 9 1 1 calls that went dreadful because the dispatcher was a piece of work, you know? Yeah. And so if I can just fill that gap and sit there for the, for the county and do a good job, I feel like that's very God honoring and a good, a good mission, a good career to have. So, yeah. That's what I'm pursuing.
Speaker 1 00:11:48 Yeah. No, that's, that's amazing. I, I affirmed that. I remember a couple years ago the, there was a documentary that came out of the homeschool family in San Bernardino County, California, where the parents were super abusive, I think had even changed some of their kids to
Speaker 2 00:12:08 Yeah, I remember this. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:12:11 And I remember thinking about it and watching the documentary, the role that the dispatcher played in, in helping the, the one girl escape and, and then kind of find her way, cuz she had, I don't think she had been outside really for 15 years or something like that. Like, it was Wow. It was a whole new world. Um, and, and that was kind of the first place where I was like, oh, yeah, like a dispatcher is not just relaying like where to go, but like actually helping someone Yeah. Find safety and, um, yeah. Find their way.
Speaker 2 00:12:47 They even, um, they helped deliver babies. Like there is just, there's all kinds of things that you can learn to do and, and become. So that's, I'm looking forward to it. We'll see how long and what it turns out to be in my life, but
Speaker 1 00:13:01 Yeah. Um,
Speaker 2 00:13:02 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1 00:13:04 Yeah. That's awesome. And you, you mentioned your book, you are, uh, working, actively working on a book, which is a, I'm excited about, um, look forward to. I've had, uh, the privilege of seeing the outline and kind of reading some of the things you've been working on so far, and, and that's the, the big thing of becoming a patron. Um, anybody who follows me is familiar with Patreon as a platform of supporting work and so forth. And, and right now, am I correct that you, uh, if someone becomes a patron, they can follow along as you're writing the work or?
Speaker 2 00:13:43 Yes. So I'm hoping to once a month post a chapter, um, in 2023. And so the whole book will be visible, um, ideally by the time on the year ends next year. That's obviously first draft I'll make, I'll probably make a ton of changes. Um, but it gives an idea of what I'm gonna be putting in there and, um, and so yeah, people who support me, um, financially are given access to that ahead of time, welcome to Message Me and give me input, um, tell me what they're thinking. And so yeah, that one of the, one of the many things that's available there, um, on my Patreon.
Speaker 1 00:14:18 Yeah. You also have, um, uh, brilliance in color, is that Yeah. Is that the book or that's the podcast or your conversations? That's,
Speaker 2 00:14:29 Those are the videos that I do. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:32 And I have one of those launching and like a few days from when we're, when we're starting recording this, so, okay. Yeah. Basically what that is, is it's just a back when, um, the George Floyd stuff took place, I had already been writing articles on racism, and so I got a lot of questions from people. So finally I just wrote a super supervis article, uh, my voice and all the chaos and just unleashed, like, I, I let, I let go of what I was thinking. Um, and I called for the kingdom to be at work. And, um, a lot of people at that time were asking me for resources, and I was like, um, I don't know. Like, I grew up running this stuff from my dad, from, um, studying from projects. I don't know how to transfer that onto somebody else. Um, but what I ended up doing is doing book reviews and different other things.
Speaker 2 00:15:22 And so this was sort of like a, maybe a several years delayed response to that, that desire to hear stories to learn. And so I just go over the history of, um, someone's story. I did one on Claude Covin, um, I did one on Frederick Douglas. I did one on Thurgood Marshall, I think. So this text won something really interesting as well. And, um, thankfully I, I took about a month and a half off because my, my mom's been sick, um, and my production, um, value and, and, uh, cameras and everything has gone up a lot. So I'm looking forward to producing a really good video for Yeah. Aon going forward. So yeah. Another thing that will offer.
Speaker 1 00:16:04 Yeah. That's cool. Um, this will probably, I think we're recording this on the 22nd of November. It'll probably be the end of the month till we get it out, so mm-hmm. <affirmative> definitely. I'll, I'll have a link in the description. People can go check out, check out your work there. Yeah. How's, how's your mom been doing? She's, I mean, I know she's not been doing well. How's this week been
Speaker 2 00:16:28 Going? Yeah, so just for the record, she has dementia and, um, just discovered that last week. She's been in the hospital for 23 days, I think now. And I've been the first half of those, that time I was with her every day, all day. And it really set me back work wise. But, um, she, um, one of her issues that she's also bipolar and social, wake up, confused, and then get aggressive, and she's just, imagine a lady, um, confused where she's at, coming with all kinds of delusions. Like, I'm in a movie, why are you recording me? And what, how much did they pay you? And stuff like that at a hospital where they're trying to help you, which unfortunately, you know, every three hours they're going in this sticker with a needle or take her blood pressure, whatever, you can never really sleep in the hospital full night. It's not gonna happen. And, um, she gets pumped full of adrenaline and she starts attacking people. And it's not un unfathomable. It's, it's sad. But, um, that's position that she's in. Uh, right now we're trying to get her placed in a, in a home, but because of her history and because of her regression and how young she is, she's not even 60 yet, and she has dementia. That's really rare. Um, she is, it's hard to place her. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:17:43 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:44 The, the hope is that we can get her placed soon.
Speaker 1 00:17:46 The, the reason it's hard to place her is because of, of it just takes more demanding care than
Speaker 2 00:17:52 Someone Yeah. It's hard, it's hard to sell a local, um, nursing home on the idea of taking a 60 year old with a drug history that has dementia and, um, is aggressive. That's, that's four strikes, you know, that's, that's difficult. Yeah. So more than likely what'll happen is, you know, down the road she'll get placed, but it will be a couple hours away.
Speaker 1 00:18:16 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:17 Yeah. And that's hard because, you know, trying to, sometimes she understands what's going on, and sometimes she doesn't. And so I convinced you yesterday that we should have, she should have me as her power attorney, because I know that she actually has to have one in order to get placed. But what if she says, no, it's interesting how the hospital works. They found her competent to, uh, incompetent to make her own medical decisions, but competent to pick her power of attorney. And so if she decides not to have power of attorney, she's literally stuck in the hospital until she does. Wow. And what, what actually ends up happening is that the hospital gives up and says, we're taking over as guardian for her this, she comes to state, and now I have no say in what happens with her for all. For all, all I know, she's gonna get pushed around to different nursing homes for the rest of her life. Yeah. And so, thankfully we're able to do that, and tomorrow go in for a power of attorney meeting with her. And then it's just a matter of the case worker trying to find a place to, to have her, you know, and that's gonna be hard to do. Yeah. Just as,
Speaker 1 00:19:19 Yeah. I, yeah, I admire your dedication to her and, um, just your commitment. I know it's been hard not, not only to see someone deteriorate like that, but do, do you mind kinda sharing, I know you're, growing up with her was really painful, really abusive. And what has that process been like for you? I know, again, just as another plug for Patreon, um, you wrote about it a little bit, um, some of the process of forgiveness and mm-hmm. <affirmative> everything. But do you mind sharing a little bit here just
Speaker 2 00:19:55 Yeah, I can share. So the, the, the short version is that mom and dad, when I growing up, um, she was heavily, heavily addicted to cocaine. Um, she was a cocaine addict for 16 years of my life, the first 16 years of my life. Um, and actually well before I was born as well. Um, so growing up there was a lot of, um, I think I can say abuse, you know, it's hard because my, you know, I don't wanna make my family sound. Um, like, I don't wanna make anybody feel like I'm bitter towards them. That was something that was a breakthrough in my late teens, that, that bitterness has been gone ever since. You know, there's, there's not a moment in my life that I ever feel captivated by bitterness or by resentment towards my parents. Is there pain? Yes. Is there, you know, setbacks that I faced in life?
Speaker 2 00:20:43 Absolutely. Um, God has been plenty big for all that stuff, but what, what's difficult is the last eight years she's been sober, um, she became sober when I moved out the house. Um, it's been nine years now, partially because she realized, wow, my son doesn't wanna live with me anymore. Um, my dad was the same way, you know, they both were together still before he passed away mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, another reason is she had been arrested, so she was getting drug tested. So, um, it was basically either I'd kill myself and die, or I put up a fight and, you know, keep my son and keep my life and whatever else. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and to her credit, she's been sober ever since. And so she deserves that credit. She deserves that, um, like acknowledgement. And I'm far more proud of her for her, for effort in the last decade of her life here than all the pain that was caused before that.
Speaker 2 00:21:36 But it was a lot of pain, you know, and that that'll be unpacked in the book, unimaginable, um, things that happened there. Um, what's been difficult is now I've had moments I've never questioned, you know, God, why do you let bad stuff happen? Um, those things have not been a constant in my life. If I say it never happened, that's not completely true. But it's very rare, and I never dwell, I'm always con convinced that God is good, he is faithful, he is worthy, he is jealous. It does not take more than a night for me to get back to that place of worship. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, this be more of an issue of self-doubt or self, um, deprecation than to dep, than to deprecate God. You know? However, one thing that has been a constant the last 10 years in struggling to forgive my mom became a Christian when I was 13, and more so when I was 16, when I was really committed and had moved out my mom's house, moving with the shank family, and actually pursued a consistent Christian life, if you wanna say it that way.
Speaker 2 00:22:40 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is God, why did you, why did you make me forgive her? So now I have to love her. You know, now I have these feelings of compassion and sympathy. I, I mentor young men and women. Right. Mostly young men, but I was also a teacher. So I have some really strong relationships with my former students. And the, the thing is, a lot of them have a deep resentment for their parents. And it's not fake, it's real. They do not like their dad. They do not, not they, as far as they're concerned, their dad could die. Right. It doesn't diminish that there's still a desire in their heart for a connection, but the connection's not there. Right. Mm. And I can't say that I, my entire life, short of maybe my preteen or, you know, early teen years, have always had a desire and a heart and love from my parents despite what they did to me.
Speaker 2 00:23:32 Right. And so here I am, um, in the hospital, she, I don't wanna describe quite how ugly it, it, it was in the hospital, it's still fresh, right. But mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this unimaginable humiliation and difficulty. And I'm the one that's here for her, and I'm the only one that's here for her, basically. You know, my uncle comes in and helps, but I was there every day, all day, that first 14 days. And, you know, she's here because of her addiction. She's here because of the way she lived her life. And it's like, God, that's just so unfair. And it's not unfair in the fact that I think she doesn't deserve it. I, I'm, I have complete mercy for my mom. I would love to see her thrive and do well. Um, but it's like, God, why did you instill this compassion in my heart? It's so much harder and, and heavy to live my life within this stage where I basically can't live for myself anymore.
Speaker 2 00:24:27 I have to, I have to keep everything I do in the scope of my mom, you know? Yeah. And that's just not what a, someone in their twenties supposed to be doing. And yet, I'm, I am more than resigned. I am thankful to God that we're in this position versus where it could have gone in the way that they lived their lives. Um, I'm thankful for the opportunity to serve and love my mom, but it's hard. It's hard, you know, especially because of the past and because of how just trippy and surreal it feels to think back to where I was when I was 16 and life was a living like hell, you know, I was just escaping from it. Yeah. To here I am loving my mom, and, you know, um, trying to minister to her ever need that. That's, that's surreal. It's just surreal feeling.
Speaker 1 00:25:16 Yeah. So, yeah. What, um, I've got a lot of questions about that. I don't wanna
Speaker 2 00:25:24 That's fine.
Speaker 1 00:25:25 Pry too much in the, either in your story or in the book, because you're gonna go into it further, but I just think of like, I think forgiveness is one of those things that can be really hard to process. Um, I, I've had experiences where, yeah, kind of like what you said, I, I came to a place of forgiveness and it's like, I have not experienced bitterness since. And then there are other relationships or experiences that you are consciously like trying to forgive, but it can keep, especially when the relationship is still vi uh, you're still in it actively right now, um, and kind of keep triggering back up. What would you say, like, yeah, I mean, is it, is it something you feel like God has done a miracle in your heart, or are there some things that he showed you that you kind of come to, to embrace a path of forgiveness or like, what, what allowed you to, what allows you to keep you, you say you have compassion for your mom, um, and, and so you're kind of compelled to care for her. Like what, yeah. What has kind of caused that in your journey?
Speaker 2 00:26:47 Yeah. In, in regards to forgiving people or having the strength to forgive. I think part of the reason why I'm, I'm not often hung up on that or not often struggling the last 10 years with that, is I'm just the realist. I, I, I don't overthink relationships that aren't deep. I don't, I don't see relationship where it's not. And so, in a church environment, if I'm, um, the idea of having a long drawn out conflict with somebody is like, at the end of the day, you're showing who you are and what you value. I'm showing who I am, what I value, and it'd be nice to be unified here. It'd be nice to make this work, but I'm so quick to just say, um, I don't want you to feel like you have to change to, for me. And I don't want you to feel that you have control over making me fit.
Speaker 2 00:27:45 What makes you comfortable, especially when I don't feel that it's a, it's a healthy thing. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, for example, if somebody is tokenizing me or someone is, um, using me, because, you know, it's so often in a, in a largely white and a Baptist, north American world to feel like you're the black friend, you know, to feel like you're the, you're the guy that someone wants to be a friend with because you're, you're, you're famous or you're interesting, or you're what, and I'm like, at the end of the day, if you wanna be my real close friend, I have to be more than that to you. A person who, who has needs, who struggles, who needs to be able to have conversations with you. And those are few people, and there are a few people. For anybody, it's, it's hard to have more than a, a handful of strong relationships like that.
Speaker 2 00:28:29 Um, you can't get around everybody, you know? And so I don't take that personally because I draw boundaries. You know, I don't take it personally cause I never expected that kind of fulfillment in people. And I'm of the mindset in, in a way that people let you down all the time. Even my close friends, um, I, I, I wouldn't think I'm my close friend if I didn't get mad at him at least once a week, you know? Um, which obviously I, I ask God to humble me, right? But it, it's like we're gonna have those conflicts. Um, whenever I get in conflict with God, I, I, you know, metaphorically, but, you know, sometimes even physically, I get on my knees and I repent and I say, God, you are worthy, you are great. And I'm sure whatever's wrong here is not your fault, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:29:17 There's no person in the world I can think about that way, right? There's nobody in the world that's perfect like that. Sometimes it's their fault, you know, sometimes I'm being stubborn, but you know what? I'm gonna be stubborn cuz I'm not in a good mood. I don't want, I don't wanna concede with God. It's always a consistent humbling God, your ways are higher than mine. You are worthy. I respect that and I repent. I don't even know for sure what I'm doing wrong here, but I know it's not you. Ok? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you still have my devotion, you still have my trust. So it's a lot easier in my opinion. Um, so it's not quite the, the Buddhist mindset of if you expect nothing good, then nothing can hurt kind of attitude. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it's, it's something like that. You know? It's, it's like, it, it's not the same thing.
Speaker 2 00:30:02 It's, it's faith based in thinking that, you know, um, the cross before me, the world behind me kind of attitude. But I'm just saying that that's not, doesn't mean I don't value the church, doesn't mean I don't value brotherhood. It's just that God is always supreme. God is always first. So when somebody does me wrong, um, someone scandalizes my name or whatever, look at Negro spirituals, a lot of them are about that, about backstabbing, about, um, betrayal. And I relate a lot to it because I felt like I'd both betrayed and been betrayed in my life. And if I don't expect perfection from somebody, it doesn't bother me near as much when they're not, even if it hurt me. And so I think a lot of it has to come down to expectations to God being where he belongs in the process of being supreme.
Speaker 2 00:30:53 And, um, of course there's mercy to understand that, you know what, as a mentor, as a young man, um, he'll be on my podcast this next year, um, that I'm starting. But, um, he won't mind me talking about this. We're probably gonna unpack it. He is the, he at 15 is one of the greatest hypocrites I know. And I, and I say that and he's aware of it because he will, he's so passionate about right and wrong that I can't help but remember when he's talking about something, him doing the exact same thing three months ago, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's the constant, it, it, it's the constant. Like, well, I'm different now, kind of attitude. And I'm like, look, man, and we always end the conversation with him acknowledging this, right? But it's like, I've, I'm the same way. I get impassioned by something, I'll be talking to, um, one of my brothers or siblings, someone, and it's almost uncanny how often they'll just point out like, Keshaun, this is kind of like you, this is kind of what you do, right?
Speaker 2 00:31:59 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it doesn't make me any less upset or impassioned, right? Right. But it does remind me that we are all in a way bad people. We, we are all selfish. We are all, and so I'm, I am not a idolizer of people. I don't have that, that glowing admiration for people that people tend to have for others. It's not there. I I respect people immensely in my life, but I'm not holding them up in a, in a perfect mode. I'm not holding up in a glowing light because they meet mistakes too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and maybe that cynicism, whatever it is, I'm actually thankful for it. I'm thankful that God has, um, kind of tailored my expectations to be a little more realistic. And it almost feels like God in my life has said I am awesome and they're not, you know? And so keep your eyes on me.
Speaker 2 00:32:54 Keep your hope in me, um, and love and serve the people around you and love and be served by them, but don't have your, don't, don't look at them up on a pedestals if they're gonna come and be the Savior. When I'm the Savior, you know, and I'm the perfect perfection. I'm one, I give strength to forgive. Yeah. And, and all of that doesn't minimize the effect of forgiveness is still hard. And in my book, I actually, the whole, one of the main objectives of writing it, um, is I had a young person come up to me one time, um, after I, I, I was at Camp Andrews, I think, and I was speaking to a group of young people from the city of Lancaster. I'd done this many times in a heart to heart and different programs there in Lancaster, that there's three major Bible schools and he had a Baptist world that are there every week.
Speaker 2 00:33:42 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I've spoken at all of them several times. And I did a camp at Camp Andrews. And one, a young lady comes up to me and she says, how can you forgive your dad after he did everything that he did to you? Now, granted, I would've said my mom did a lot worse things to me than my dad. Right? But they were both dysfunctional parents, and again, completely forgiven. And, and I would say that I was loved by my parents. So even though they, they were dysfunctional, they were distracted, they were, um, unintentionally abusive in some ways, I, I have nothing but love for them, okay? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but me being there is only because of Jesus. And so here goes a young lady who is struggling, crying, frustrated, because she can't do that. And my simple answer to her was, you're never gonna get there without God because you have no reason to get there.
Speaker 2 00:34:34 Right? There's no reason for you to forgive your parents. You might as well just move on and put 'em in the grave. Forget about them. Right? But that's not what God calls us to do. Right. Even if you were to call your parents an enemy, God tells us to love our enemies. Right? Um, and so at the end of the day, that young lady had to hear that if you don't forgive your dad of what he's done to you, God will never forgive you. Right? And people can, can work around that all they want. They can talk about how that's maybe not the right timing, whatever, but I have no shame in telling her the truth. Mm-hmm. So I needed it too, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so one of the reasons I'm writing this book is unfortunately, there are some people who have, have written books, given talks, run seminars that convinced people that the real issue is that they victimized themselves.
Speaker 2 00:35:29 And I'm like, I don't think so because you are a victim. You, you, what happened to you was very real, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And never once in my victory did I minimize the pain that I received. Never once did, did I gaslight myself to say or allow anyone to gaslight me that I had not gone through what I went through. That's wrong. Cuz you did go through what you went through and it does matter. And here's the thing. If we spend so much time downplaying just how wrong and bad that that thing was to happen to you, how are we ever gonna fully unpack the strength that you can, you can come through it through Christ, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so the way that I put it is I'm not saying that God did those things to you to make you into a mighty warrior. That's the very cliche way to put it.
Speaker 2 00:36:14 What I am saying is that God can and will if you ask him to turn all those bad things into good for you and for him, really, but for you as well and for others. And so I don't, I can't theologically see, I agree that, that God lets you get raped. God let you get, um, abuse, whatever, so that, so that he could just use that to, um, make you an advocate or make you whatever. Cuz often what happens is people become bitter. And I'm just not convinced of that. But what I am convinced of is that God does offer the power to rise, to not rise above, but to rise with those pains. And then they become something that can help people. And so there's nothing clear in my life and the reality that I've been able to use the sad things in my life that while being redeemed by God, while being forgiven myself, while being able to forgive others, am able to use those stories, those strengths, those those scars to help other kids that are in the same position. Right? And so I wanna write a book that tells my story and then tells people, in no way should you run away from your pain, you should give it to God and let God do that work. And then, and then you should go serving other people with it. That's so different than the mindset that pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Stop being a victim. You're never gonna grow if you're always thinking about your past. And I'm like,
Speaker 2 00:37:38 Yeah. You know, that's just not consistent with the way God has done work in my life.
Speaker 1 00:37:44 And so
Speaker 2 00:37:45 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that, that's what one reason why, why I wrote, I'm writing the book is for young people from cities, but also mission is anyone that would read it to understand that minimizing pain does not help. What does help is understanding that that pain doesn't have to have victory over my, over my over grace doesn't have victory over God. Yeah, yeah. You know, and, and then it can, and then from there, what can God do? And God can do some pretty incredible stuff. Um, despite the fact that you were attacked, you were this, you were that. Yeah. That's, that's my testimony.
Speaker 1 00:38:16 Yeah. Wow. That's really good. You know, it, it's interesting, like if, if God would've kind of minimized the pain that he was caused by our sin, um, would, would he have sent his son to die? Like that's, that's an example of going into a really dark place to forgive, to express forgiveness. Um, owning one 100% owning the, the pain and the consequences of the tragedy or the sin against him. And so in a similar way, like that is what forgiveness is for us, is we have to acknowledge the tragedy against us. And that's not, like you said, that's not being a victim, that's just acknowledging what was, and in going into that dark area, then we can experience the resurrection life of
Speaker 2 00:39:13 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:39:14 <affirmative> of forgiveness. It's good. I, um, so I, the questions I kind of threw at you that I thought we'd discuss, um, I'm just kind of thinking the la I don't think it's any secret to anybody listening to this and so forth the last few years I had you on. Well, I think one was you just kind of sharing your testimony, and then another one was more specifically talking about racism. And I'm just, and then that was all before George Floyd, even before, um, Ahmad Arbery and some of the other ones came out. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm curious, is that like, talking about stuff like that, is that just kind of, are you exhausted from that? Are you kind of tired of talking about stuff like that? Or how, how do you feel after two years of everything?
Speaker 2 00:40:15 It's interesting you say that. So it was almost like a, um, epiphany or I don't know what, what it's called, but I, the realization that in the last two years at some point, that I don't have to take responsibility for convincing people not to be racist. Right. That, that's something that I don't have to do. That God would still be pleased, God would still be happy to have me serve in his kingdom if I didn't do it. If I didn't, if I didn't work to convince RAs not to be racist. Now, that's not why I don't write as much as I used to about it. That's not, that's, that has a lot to do with my personal life, with things that are going on. I've obviously, I picked back up, but, you know, even that has been read a little bit from my mom's sickness.
Speaker 2 00:41:07 What it does mean is that I do not feel that the main work that I'm doing there in making the videos about, um, black history, whatever, is to target racism in Baptist communities or racism anywhere in the world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what it is, is when somebody is humble, is interested, does want to learn, they have resources to learn. Cause I think that there is value in learning the history of, um, a historically oppressed group in the, in America. It's not just African American people. That's what I'm qualified to speak on. If I could speak on, um, immigration prejudice, if I could speak on, um, other prejudices, the prison system, which knows no color, right? Except that, you know, it, it, it tends to, um, unfairly, um, incarcerate people of color, obviously. But there's people in prison that I could advocate for while colors are what I, what I mean by that, right?
Speaker 2 00:42:06 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, all these things I believe, um, if, if you can learn, learn, right? And if you're not learning, then you're not, you're probably not worthy to be talking so loudly in this space. And the problem with today is everybody has so much to say, right? People have become so emboldened to speak on these subjects, but they're not informed. They're not even trying to be informed, right? And so I want people to have access where possible to information, to stories, to brilliance, to excellence, so that they have something they hang their, um, opinions on, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> and or build their opinions off of. And so my mindset has shifted from let's expose this. Let's, let's pro bring this out. Let's do whatever that stage in my life I think is flown by. And I will do that here and here and there. The book will definitely do that.
Speaker 2 00:43:03 But it's, it's like that's not the target audience. That's exhausting. Yeah. Yeah. The real, the real thing is when somebody does want to love, does want do well, is listening does want to learn. That's who I want to be speaking with, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when I was a teacher, I have a friend right now that still teaches, that's struggling this year. And I told him one of the hardest things about teaching is you don't control who's your, who's in your room. Right? The administrator does is so if you could be convinced that this student shouldn't be in your room, he's not trying to learn, he's not doing well. And it doesn't matter that you feel that way, because at the end of the day, they're in your room. You gotta love them and try to help 'em, right? They're, they're your responsibility. Um, and so it's freeing to not be a teacher.
Speaker 2 00:43:50 And when I don't wanna talk to somebody, I don't have to talk to 'em, right? When I don't want to convince this person what they're saying is hateful, I don't have to, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and of course, it's different when it's a friend, it's different when it's family. It's different when it's someone I care about. And sometimes I do have the energy to talk to a stranger and say, you know what, you don't realize just how damaging that is, this and that, whatever. But that doesn't characterize what I feel I'm called to in life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so you ask, I'm tired about it. Well, I'm tired of it in the sense that I feel like yelling into a bucket that's full of racist people. Um, even the truth will not make those people un racist. Yeah. Okay. And, and so what needs to happen is that people who desire to do well, people who desire to, to know people who are not trying to be these things, um, have resources and access to those things, um, have people to talk to.
Speaker 2 00:44:50 And I'm here to talk to anybody like that, right? Yeah. But on the subject that is so, um, important to me, matters so much to me. Um, I, I don't wanna say cling pearls to swine, that's a very offensive way to put it. A nicer way to put it might be, I'm not gonna throw out noise to people who don't want it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. The argument itself is not, isn't, isn't beneficial. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I, I'll admit once every few weeks, I, I get a little caught up, right? And hopefully that is not, um, indicative of my entire, you know, the entirety of my decor, and by the way I behave myself in life. But, um, for the majority of my life, it's, it's, it's been the majority of my life right now. Rather, I have learned to just sort of let, um, the hatred of racism, um, not, not allow that to become my personal mission to change that. Yeah. It's, it's almost arrogant to think that it is my issue to solve, you know? Yeah. Sorry, my, my auto focus or my tracking on my camera turned on. Anyway,
Speaker 1 00:46:03 Hey, friends, this podcast is brought to you in partnership with the Dwell app. I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Dwell Audio Bible app, but this app is phenomenal. It, it's changed my life in several different ways. As a Bible college student, I do tremendous amounts of Bible reading throughout the semester, more than I normally do, and I'm not a fast reader. And so one of the ways that I have been able to keep on top of the Bible reading is through the Dwell app. One, one of the things I really like about it is there's very meditative reflective music played in the background of the reader. So it's not dramatized. Some, some audio Bible apps are Dr. Dramatized, and that's a little, I don't know, not my cup of tea, but it's a very calming and just peaceful way of having the Bible read to you.
Speaker 1 00:47:00 There's also, there's at least 15, I think there's close to 30 by now, different voices that you can choose from. There's many different translations you can choose from. For the v I think there's maybe two or three voices, if that makes sense. But there's over 15 voices for sure. And so you can have a female voice, you can have a male voice, you can have a British accent, you can have an American accent, you can have a Canadian accent or a, well, I like the British accent. So I listen to the Bible and the British accent, and it's, it's been a really good way to keep on top of my homework. But also, I have found, sometimes I'll be listening to audio Bible as I commute someplace or as I'm doing some other work, or even in the morning, sometimes it's hard to wake up, you're tired, and to sit down and read it literally feels like an intellectual exercise.
Speaker 1 00:47:51 You're just, it's like school, like starting your day with school. And I love learning things, but I'm not, like, I don't do well at starting my day with school. And so when you wake up and you're tired, but you want, you want to meditate on the word of God, to just put in my air AirPods and listen to the Dwell app is an incredible way to start my warning. Just a peaceful worship meditation. I hear things differently when I hear it being read than when I read it. I personally think you should read and hear it both. But that's one thing I like about audio Bible is different things stick out that didn't stand out before. I'll listen to it as I'm going on a run or something, and I can't say enough good about the Dwell app. And so if you would like to take your meditation, your Bible reading to another level, you can also, if you're not able to sleep at night, you can put in your AirPods and listen to the scripture being read and falls asleep that way. I've used that at times as well. But you can start for free, there's a link in the description below, or you can go ahead and purchase the, the annual plan, which I have. And it's, to me, is very much worth it just in the way, a couple things, the way it helps me, uh, meditate, kind of a fresh view, a fresh experience with scripture, and then also the way it helps me keep on top of my homework. It's been very helpful for me. No, that's good. I,
Speaker 2 00:49:21 So does that, does that make sense? I mean, I, I just don't feel, I feel like that's the healthiest place for anybody to be on this subject is I, I am unashamedly believe that racism is an issue in our country, in the church, and in a baptism especially. I think that this needs to be addressed, and I will continue to address it, but I, I don't want to give off the impression that, that I believe that people should have it shut down their throat. If people want, don't want to learn, let them not want to learn. Yeah. It's just as simple as that. Draw distance, set boundaries, don't support them, don't support what they're doing, don't support their missions. But I'm not, I'm not here to tear down or to convince otherwise. Yeah. That type of work, to me is, is foolishness.
Speaker 1 00:50:03 Yeah. I, I was thinking about it when you were talking about, uh, forgiveness and just like, not the, the, the expectations or lack of expectations you have
Speaker 2 00:50:13 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:50:14 For people. And your response here kind of echoes some of the same things, giving space. Cause I think, I think I, maybe it's arrogance <laugh>, like you said, taking on responsibility or, or trying to be responsible for everything. I think for me, it, it's like what I would say, and maybe it's actually arrogance, we'll see, but what I would say is desiring that the church fully embody the way of Jesus. And, and so like, my expectations were that people who really wanna follow Jesus will, will lean into this and learn. And then there was so much, and even just like weird conversations that like didn't, weren't able to really follow very good logic, um, that I very quickly burned out. And I'm not e like, I don't even deal firsthand with, with racism. I could, I could sit and I think that's something I still kind of struggle with a little bit.
Speaker 1 00:51:25 Like, it, it could be very easy for me to just slide into a, uh, monolithic culture environment that like, I'm okay as long as I don't, you know, if I choose my words carefully, like I can stay very hidden and then I feel somewhat guilty because, uh, well, for one thing I've, I've seen and or I have too many friends that yeah, their faces, you know, come to mind. And, um, I don't wanna just be, I don't know what the word is. I don't, I don't wanna disengage from them or, um, but what you're saying as far as, I don't know if it's a lowering of expectations or just like shifting your energy to those who actually wanna learn and actually wanna grow. Um,
Speaker 2 00:52:25 It's both. Yeah, it's both.
Speaker 1 00:52:28 It makes a lot of sense. And I think it's healthy. Like, I think it, it's gonna prevent burnout a lot faster. What it, like, as you look over the last few years, like what, what are your observations? What are, have we learned anything? Is there, um, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:52:53 Well, the short answer is no, we haven't learned anything but that, that's, because that's how humans work. Um, societal, um, if anything were to happen societally would happen over generations, right? I don't, I don't, I, I'm studying history as a history teacher for, for several years. I'm convinced that movements are, are nothing more than seeds, right? And so if they are going to make change, they're gonna make change over several stages and several, you know, years, potentially even a whole generation mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, that's actually what I, what I claim for anti baptism when it comes to these cultural things. I think that if my niece and nephews are better educated and informed, then what I see in the, the current flock of 30 and 40 year olds, um, then they will, that will have been marked as a, as a solid impact in my, from my life, from other people who are speaking on the issue like you.
Speaker 2 00:53:59 Um, if they are loving the world in a way that is better, that is better off, you know, better off in the way we, we've seen our generation do, and maybe the one before us, um, that was success. The idea that we're going to shape the generation currently, I'm not, I'm not personally think it's gonna happen, right? Hmm. So it goes back to this is gonna, the episode on cynicism from Keshawn, right? My expectations were, were not that this is gonna convince Mennonites to, um, tear down ethnocentrism and build diverse churches. Uh, probably not, right? Cause that would cost, that would cost them everything that they had built up in their lives that benefits them, right? And I say that for myself as well. I have yet to pay for one of my cars. I am blessed by community. I am blessed by those privileges.
Speaker 2 00:54:52 I didn't have 'em most of my life, but, and I've, and I've actually unpacked, or your, your younger brother will like this. I deconstructed, um, some of those, uh, some of those things in my life. Um, I, you know, I'm not benefiting this year like I was three years ago, in other words. But for someone to have it their whole life, to be raised in, in that way, to be valued and to learn that their culture is pretty great, and the ones around them are really, really, really wicked. And they really, really need them. They need the Anabaptist to, to shed light on them. Um, in the terms of gospel for Christians, I, I'm all for that kind of talk, but when it comes down to culture, to culture, um, you know, it's ethno, centris, you know, it's wrong in my opinion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> for that to unpack.
Speaker 2 00:55:40 And one generation's not likely, but, um, and so did we learn anything? Well, I don't know if we are equipped as entire cultures of millions of people to learn like that, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, however, have I met people, um, individuals that have taken on, um, these things and done better with their lives? Absolutely. Have I met entire churches? No. No. I've not. I've yet to see a church have a revival around the centrism. That is, to me, that is a expectation that you shouldn't give up on preaching Jesus and his ways to, to churches. I still speak places, I still do these things, but when I sit in front of a church, I don't sit there with the objective of convincing all 200 people in that room to be at a better place, to be at the, at, at where we're trying to get them.
Speaker 2 00:56:37 Um, where I'm trying to be, um, I think of, you know, who in this room is listening and learning? Yeah. Who, who could, who can I bless? And if anything else for the rest of people, am I planting a seed or at least am I proclaiming the truth? Yeah. Um, in a way that will please God? Um, I hope it doesn't sound arrogant because I recognize that as a public speaker, I have something to offer, but I'm not claiming to, to know everything that needs to happen here for this, for us to see diverse, Jewish, centrism, squashed, whatever else. Um, I also believe it's important for Anabaptists to know what they offer and know what they bring. I think it's interesting that in missions, um, both what I experienced here at home and what I've, um, seen in other places, especially urban missions, that's where my, my, um, my time is spent obviously mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:57:33 But, um, it's interesting how insecurities in a missionary can derail and hurt not only them, but the people around them. Yeah. And so, I, I value just as much, although I'm not equipped to, to help, cuz I'm not, I'm not from the culture. I'm not, I'm attending them at the night church, but I'm always gonna be keyshawn, I'm always gonna be having grown up in the hood, having these things are a part of who I am that aren't a part of them, aren't a part of you. And so there's always a uniqueness there that sets me not apart from the body, cuz I, I'm part of the body under the kingdom, but in terms of culture beyond the kingdom, we're not, we're very, we're almost polar opposites. So that's gonna, that's gonna bring in some difficulties and some joys of diversity. Um, my experience is that the Anabaptist world would benefit a lot from a healthy but mission minded, non ethnocentric push for, um, self acknowledgement of who I am as Anabaptist, as a Mennonite, as a someone who grew up on a farm or on wherever I did.
Speaker 2 00:58:44 And, um, while also recognizing that there are equally as brilliant aspects in the city of York, Redding, Harrisburg, overseas in Nigeria, in Kenya. Yeah. Um, in Romania and in Ukraine. These missions, they're, they're equally as important aspects that exist there that I can learn from. Yeah. And, um, you, you need both. You have to both understand who you are and what you bring, and you have to understand what you have to learn and what is available out there in the world. Yeah. And if you're only one of those things, you're either gonna be an egotist who's ethnocentric and likely racist, or you're going to be a destructive and, you know, you're gonna get lauded as good missionary, but you're gonna go in there and you're, and the people aren't gonna like you. Yeah. And even if they do, it's, it's a selfish or a, you know, you bring food, you bring resources, they need you mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:59:40 But you're creating need with your, with your wealth and your money, but you're not act, there's no loving relationship there. And that, and frankly, without that, there's probably not gonna be any discipleship in any, any following Christ. And the only place I've seen it, seen missions work effective or evangelistic relationships work is where I understand my, my strengths and weaknesses, my goods and bads, what I was given and what I wasn't. And I believe that you are brilliant, both brilliant and needy. Right. We recognize that they're needy, but we recognize they're also brilliant and we have a lot to offer each other. Let's be friends and hopefully let's be brothers and let's be sisters. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:00:21 Yeah. That's, um, the attitude that I believe, um, I, that's my ideal for the next generation for, for your kids, for us now as individuals. But for me to go to my church and expect my whole church to be this way is, is lofty for you to expect to go wherever you are and get everyone around you to be that way is lofty. And so a accurately the way that God calls us for personal, um, faithfulness, we have to first do our part and we have to pursue our families, and then we have to pursue everybody around us. Right. And, um, thankfully, you know, my family's already perfect. I'm perfect. So, and now I just gotta convince everybody else around me to, uh, to get it figured out, you know? But so obviously we are, uh, I'm making progress as I promise we're getting there,
Speaker 1 01:01:11 <laugh>. Yeah, no, that, that's good. And by insecurity, you said, um, something about insecure missionaries. What, what you're referring to is like someone who's all apologetic about their Anabaptist background or like
Speaker 2 01:01:26 Well, the thing is, it's a lot of things. It's a lot of thing on either extreme. So you can either come in apologetic for being Mennonite, and so you hate that, or you can come in, um, and people don't praise you for being menonite. They don't, they're like, okay, we don't, we don't care. I mean, on this street alone, there are people from Hispanic backgrounds, people who immigrated, um, in the last 10 years, the last hundred years people came over on slave ships. People who don't even call themselves American Republican, Democrat. Like, there's so much diversity on popular street Yeah. Let alone different religious backgrounds. Right. So you come in and you want to be equal and accepted. And I, I'm like, well, everybody wants to be equal and accepted. Right? Um, and you can easily become diluted to believe that you are uniquely unaccepted because you're Mennonite.
Speaker 2 01:02:16 And it's like, listen, everybody in this city is <laugh> experiences what you're feeling. Yeah. It's a very human experience and you're internalizing it and making it worse. And so even worse is they, people pick up on that insecurity. And so it's, it's compounding and getting worse because they're feeling like you expect them to worship you, you expect them to, to pat you on the back. Mm. And only two very bad responses can come from that one. People will do it because you give them something and you offer them food and money and attention and whatever else. Mm. But that's not gonna lead to discipleship or they spit you out. Right. And I, I point all of that back to, I can't imagine that that would've happened if the person coming in was more Christ-like, more secure in their, in their, in their in, in being for Jesus. They were loving, they were patient, they weren't ethnocentric. Um, I just have a hard time seeing it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and so those insecurities doesn't just mean I'm, I'm self-deprecating. It also means that I'm, I'm not acknowledging that I'm okay. It's okay for me to be who I am. I have just gotta be humble to learn from people around me. I have to value thence around me. Yeah. That, that's, so
Speaker 1 01:03:39 Yeah. And that's, that's part of like, it, the, the whole, even the notion of being colorblind or like, I don't see differences. Um, that's part of what I understand the desire there to be where like, rather than like making us all the same, let's acknowledge everybody's values and strengths, uniqueness, and not feel threatened by each other.
Speaker 2 01:04:11 Right.
Speaker 1 01:04:12 Yeah. What, um, so you made the comment, you're not, I forget how you word it, but something you're, you're focusing on people like instead of, oh, you're vision for getting anabaptists to make diverse churches. Like you don't expect that in our generation, you know, hopefully the needles moved forward a little bit so that a few generations from now there will be what, but, but you acknowledge that as a vision or a desire. Yeah. Um, what, why is, why is that important? Why is it important for churches? And I think, I think this is the thing that as I reflect over the last two years, the thing that I think about the most is how crucial it is for us to be able to identify like the, the culture we have as like every local community has a unique culture. And it's important to be able to identify like what is, what is healthy or unhealthy about that.
Speaker 1 01:05:23 And, and so I'm like, in the observation I'm talking about, I'm not even talking about just ethnic background, um, conversations about how to handle covid regulations. Like a lot of that came, came down to the environment you were in and even political ideology that you kinda worked from. Um, and, and then things are said in ways that like if someone's coming in who's new to the area, they all of a sudden feel like it's not safe to share. Cuz I have a different perspective on that. Like it's, it's a different, um, bringing in a difference. And, and it, it's just, I've become convinced that it's important for us as churches, like any church anywhere, to be able to self be self aware of like what those things are that can inadvertently create walls to people coming in from a different background. And that, like, if you, if you have difference in ethnicity, uh, if you have difference in religion, religion background, your background of religion like that amplifies the differences.
Speaker 1 01:06:38 But even, even, uh, a white Anabaptist going into another white Anabaptist community, like there's, there seems to be just kind of a general lack of awareness of, of how we come across in, in very, I don't know, I hadn't thought about like what words to use, but in a way that limits like a creating one, creating oneness or harmony among the body of Christ. Do you kinda, do you see that and like, is that, why is it important that we kind of, to use the word deconstruct it or, um, kind of peel the layers back and, and see what, what is causing that? Yeah. I don't know. Is my question very clear
Speaker 2 01:07:31 Is the question, why, why is it important to work towards diverse, diverse churches or, or the, the effort to get there?
Speaker 1 01:07:39 That's one question I, I guess I was kind of trying to pull, pull onto or pull at. Um, why is it important to, cause part of working towards diverse churches is like, there can be a lot of people who want diverse diversity, but then they're very unaware of the things embedded within their, their culture or within their structure that make it impossible for there to be diversity. Does that make sense? Yes.
Speaker 2 01:08:11 Yes. Yeah. Hmm. Well, I think that's where it comes down to. Um, you know, I've always, when I went to Faith liters, um, I had a really, really good teacher named Patrick Heat Wall. Um, he's a summer term teacher, but someone that I've kept in contact with and, um, hopefully eventually here will be working with him in the Urban Educators Collective. Um, he's starting, he started a school in Miami and it's just getting launched. And so hopefully that works out. He, um, he taught us that teaching is both a art and a science, you know, and if I could compare that idea, basically the idea that it's both theater and it's based on principals, that if you are not doing certain things with teacher, 99% of the time you're not being a good teacher. Right. If you're not setting clear objectives, if you're not managing your room well, um, you're, you're not doing a great job.
Speaker 2 01:09:14 You know, and some people could who don't have a great eye for it, might see you for a day and think that you're doing a good job. But, um, the reason those support cards are coming back so bad, the reason why students are flying behind, the reason why people are getting bullied is because of the teacher, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but there are principles you could follow in addition to the theater of being a great speaker, being a great connector that would, that would fix that. So anyway, in the same way for churches, um, there is both a science, um, behind growing and doing better in this way and in art, you know, and a, um, maybe the art should be replaced with something spiritual, like a, a disposition or a heart behind it, right? It's both heart and science. It's not just your heart.
Speaker 2 01:10:03 Your good intentions are useful. That's good. I believe that's primarily what God's looking at is, is the heart, you know? Um, but when you're interacting with people where you have potential to hurt them, you have potential to, um, give them a bad impression of your entire people group or whatever. Um, and that's, I don't feel bad saying that because one of the things in my family, uh, I have both black family and white family obviously, right? Is when somebody acts a fool, they're, they're making, they're reinforcing stereotypes about our people that aren't good, right? And so somebody going on, on YouTube and adding like an idiot, um, as a black person, I don't like that. So I'm like, that's, that's foolishness, right? Like that just that, that's reinforcing. So it's, there is a personal aspect of like, yo, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're making us look better.
Speaker 2 01:10:58 There's a sense of camaraderie with that. Um, and so for all of us who are in this, in a Baptist world, which theoretically isn't known by color, right? Isn't known by, um, background, however it is, it's mostly a white, um, European background. Um, then we know that it is our heart that primarily matters. But if we don't attach to that, some principles that will help execute our heart, which sounds terrible, but you get what I'm trying to say, right? Yeah. Um, then we're going to likely fail. Our entire generation's gonna fail, right? I think that, um, the stamina, the reason why you, you don't see all these progressive Mennonites that we're posting about racial topics, doing it anymore is their fatigue. You know, I don't do it anymore because I don't feel like I'm responsible to do it, right? But it's like, for someone to say, I'm gonna speak up and advocate, well, what gave you the impression, you, you, that we don't need you to speak up and advocate anymore?
Speaker 2 01:12:06 What changed in the last six months that made that no longer needed? The truth is, you fatigued, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I don't blame you cause I fatigue too. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't need you or, or want you to feel that, to feel like you have to put special statuses or profile pictures up. But when you do that and you stop, it shows that your heart was in the game, but you didn't have the science, right? Mm. Cause the truth is, if you would actually learn to put some substance behind that heart, you could actually make changes in the world, right? Yeah. And so, one of those changes is we need to make sure that we understand that representation matters. If people in the church or in our, in our circles are heard exponentially more than other people are heard and not valued, then our heart might be in the right place.
Speaker 2 01:12:58 We might be dealing with good people, but those people are getting stumped on even with these good intentions, right? Um, one, when things of abuse are uncovered in churches, one of the appeals that people make, and it's a bad appeal, cuz cause wrong is wrong, evil is evil, right? If this happens, justice should happen, um, is well, don't, don't throw out the whole church or mission because of one person's bad mistake. And, but I'm like, you know what? That'd be a lot easier to say if they were putting down actual policy and actual effort to protect their children, to protect the people around them, right? So they are not only accountable for what happened, they're accountable for their naivety, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, naivety is not cute. It's not good. It is a bad thing, okay? And naivety is avoidable if we educate people, okay? So I would say the reason it matters is if it's all about our heart, all about our feelings, all about our intentions, then Anabaptism will never grow another step in the rest of its existence.
Speaker 2 01:14:02 In fact, it'll probably go backwards because there are a lot of great people in Anabaptist churches. Um, and I will hold it that there are a lot of people who are bitter, who have had bad experiences, my experience, that people are mostly good as a net, you know, they're bad. We mentioned earlier that they're, they're bad people too, right? They're gonna make mistakes, they're gonna let you down, but they're, they're loving, they're sacrificial. We can get into their intentions, whatever. I'm not gonna do that. That can be a different talk, right? I know so many people in my life that have blessed me, um, that, that are, that happened to me on a Baptist. And so I attribute that to their christlikeness the way they were raised. I give all the credit for that, but I also know a lot of people who don't have the, the, the, the smarts, not smarts as in mind, but like street smarts, you know, the, the, um, the, the science behind, the behind how to treat people that ultimately leads to a lot of failure and mistakes.
Speaker 2 01:14:57 And so it matters because without the science, the art is, you know, it's, it's up for interpretation whether or not that's actually a blessing or not. Yeah. And so you have all these people who are hurt and you're like, well, look at the art. Look at my heart. Look at, you know, it's a parallel from teaching. I'm not saying the heart is art, I'm saying comparing it to teaching. Yeah. There are teachers who are great at the theater, but bad at the substance. Okay. Yeah. In the same way the church, there are people who are great at having the right heart and intention, but they're not putting any substance behind it by educating themselves and by, by actually making changes that Yeah,
Speaker 1 01:15:33 That's a good analogy. I, um, so basically what I hear you saying is someone may have a heart for, for diversity and having friendships and a community of, of many different kinds of people, but not the principles of representation or the principles of, of something that is needed in order to actually create that
Speaker 2 01:15:59 Right
Speaker 1 01:16:00 In, in the community. Yeah. That's good. So I, we're gonna wrap up our time here soon, and then I asked Keisha if you'd be willing to share, uh, just some thoughts. He gave a really good talk that I was privileged to hear live. I think it was Urban Youth Workers Retreat 2021, um, where you talked about empowerment. It was really good. I, I still, I actually, after, up until that point, and since then, sorry, that was kinda confusing. I've worked with young people more directly up until about that point, and I haven't as much since then, but I still have thought, thought of different things that you shared in that session. Anyways, I asked him if you'd be willing to share that with our patron members. So we'll continue the conversation there. But just to kinda, to leave this, um, I think one of the, one of the best examples that I have from scripture of like, why, why some of these things matter, is if you go to Acts six and you have the church now, it was a largely Jewish movement.
Speaker 1 01:17:21 Jesus came as a Jew, a Jewish Messiah, but now in the, in the new post, Jesus, like after Jesus's death and resurrection, it's spreading to all tribes and all tongues and all languages. And we can see an Old Testament vision for, for that global, um, community as well, but specifically like Jesus commissions his disciples to go and make disciples of all people's. And there's this thing that like the Jewish people, the Jewish community just habitually had, or part of the Torah, part of the law was to feed the, or the not, yeah. To feed the orphans, to feed the widows, to care for the widows. And then now they're learning how to do life as a diverse community of gentile believers, and they're going about doing their normal thing that is normal. They didn't even think twice about it. They're providing food every day for the widows.
Speaker 1 01:18:19 And the Gentiles are noticing this, and there's a complaint that like the gentile widows are being overlooked and they're, they need someone to care for them. And it's, it's such a good example, I think, of when you have a church with a strong community, a strong cultural tendency and background, how you don't even, like, I don't get the impression that the Jews were intentionally avoiding the, the gentile widows. Oh, in fact, scripture says their a complaint arose to the apostles. So like, somehow this was, it was happening, and it may have not even been a formal appeal to the apostles, but just like, Hey, why don't, why don't we get any? And they're attuned enough to realize, oh, here's a situation that needs to be addressed. And you can read, uh, act six to see how they address it. It's interesting that the apostles don't necessarily make the decision themselves.
Speaker 1 01:19:23 They, they have the people assigned for themselves, men who can, who can help facilitate this for the gentile widows as well. But, um, like that's just kind of a clear New Testament example of the vision. We see this in, in Ephesians to unite all people in Christ. Like that's a part of the, the mystery of the gospel. And yet that's very, there are some principles, like you're saying, that need to, you can't just have a heart for that. There are principles that you need to apply in order to make that possible, make that happen. One of 'em is looking out for gentile widows as well, and, and realizing the things within the, the church culture that naturally kind of care for the Jewish people as opposed to the Gentile people and being willing to hear the complaints and then listen to what is needed, and then find a way to represent those people in that, in that area of need as well, and not feeling threatened that somehow they should, you know, do something a certain way or whatever. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, I, I agree with you. It's a, it's a vision. I think, um, I think I have probably wrestled more with like <laugh> do I, you know, if I, if I don't see this happening in a, in a church, like do I just jump ship and go somewhere else, or, and I, I appreciate your kind of the grounding of like, you know what, it's not gonna happen in our generation. Um, but we could, we could hopefully plant seeds that'll, that'll cause it to grow for future generations.
Speaker 2 01:21:21 Yeah. I don't think it's gonna happen in our generation anymore.
Speaker 1 01:21:24 Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:21:25 I'm not limiting God's, god's work, you know, if God can, if it, if it happens, I'll attribute it to God, you know?
Speaker 1 01:21:32 Yeah. Amen. Well, hey, I think we'll, uh, wrap it up here, but where, um, where can people go if they want to access either just your, you've, you've done a lot of writing on your blog for free, but, but then also if they wanna see your patron page and, um, the work that you're doing there, where can they go to access that?
Speaker 2 01:21:58 Yeah. Well, everything I write now, whether it's free or not, is on Patreon. There are both free and things that Oh, okay. Yeah. Based on memberships. So, um, patreon.com/keysan. Um, that's, it's pretty simple. Um, and 20% of everything that, that is made off of that goes to my mentees. Um, whether it's taking them out to eat, whether it's investing in one of their passions, whether it's putting it away when they graduate,
Speaker 1 01:22:26 They
Speaker 2 01:22:27 Don't know I'm giving to 'em yet. It all goes to them. And, um, 20%. And, um, so that's one place. Another place is on washington.com. Um, that's where I, my public speaking, um, sorry, picture almost fell in my head. Um, public speaking is,
Speaker 1 01:22:43 Are you, are you having an earthquake? Its happened twice then. Well,
Speaker 2 01:22:48 I don't know. It's needs to be reset apparently. Um, yeah, keisha washington.com or ke patreon.com um slash or back slash keys on, I forget how it works,
Speaker 1 01:23:01 I think forward slash Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:23:03 Anyway. And, um, yeah. Slash and, uh, I think that, yeah, obviously I have social media. Um, that's mostly where, yeah, those places are mostly where I'm, where I'm gonna be putting out whatever I'm putting out. Um, we are launching the Irving Kingdom podcast January 1st. I'm not sure yet. I think that'll be posted on my, my socials on my Patreon. But, um, it'll also be posted on YouTube. Um, okay. It'll pay well behind those. It's just, it'll be spread out everywhere we can get it. Yeah. Um, and, and the whole point of that is to platform people from cities and prep. That's not the whole point. The whole point is actually to show what God has done in their, in their lives. Yeah. Yeah. But it is to platform the stories of those people Yeah. And, and their ideas and their struggles and their, and their, um, yeah. What they, what they want to share. So
Speaker 1 01:23:50 That's really good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on here again, and thanks for sharing with us, with me. I, I'm excited about what you're doing. I wholeheartedly supported. I look forward to the, the podcasts coming out in the beginning of January.
Speaker 2 01:24:08 Thank you.
Speaker 1 01:24:10 Hey, friends, this podcast is brought to you in partnership with the members of Unfeigned Christianity on Patreon. The, the biggest way that you can support this work, whether it's the blog, whether it's the podcast, whether it's books that I write or courses I'm developing, the biggest way, the most helpful way is to become a member. And so for $10 a month, you get access to articles exclusive, um, I call 'em deep dive essays, where they're, they're in depth articles where the, the gist of everything that I do is to help Christians find culturally aware, biblically nuanced in Jesus embodying responses to current day issues. And the purpose of all that is so that we can love God and others from a pure heart and good conscious and sincere faith. And so, yeah, these deep dive essays dive into a topic like, you know, a couple years ago we were looking at racism fairly in depth.
Speaker 1 01:25:05 Um, more recently we've, we've looked at the construction and I'm working on a book that I, that I've titled right now, unfolding Faith. And so you get access to early releases. As I, as I flesh that out, and I write the chapters, you, you get access to those articles. Those are subscriber only articles. The other thing is you get access to expanded versions of podcast interviews, and there's gonna be the a section, the last section of this interview with Keshawn, where we discuss how to empower transfer ownership to other people in your discipling. And you can access that, but through membership on Patreon, just $10 a month. Now, here's the deal. Right now, for the end of the month, I'm recording this on the 30th of November through the 31st of December. You can access not only that, that I just told you about, but also my online courses, all past online courses, like finding my place in God's story and Future online courses that I develop for $10 a month. So it's a really good deal right now. If you wanna become a member and support this show, just go to www.asherwhitmer.com/member.
