Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hey friends. Welcome back to ufa Christianity, where we seek to reconcile human experiences with God and his word, so that we can love from a pure heart, a good conscious and sincere faith. As always, the, if you want to support this work, support, uh, the podcast, support the blog, the best way to do that is to become a member at Unfading Christianity on Patreon. If you wanna access the deep dive essay, some of the recent ones we've done is, what's the big deal about the head covering or raising kids while struggling with depression? Or, why do bad things happen to good people? Stuff like that. Or, if you want to access expanded versions to our podcast interviews, consider becoming a member's just $10 a month. Visit www.awhitter.com/member. In today's episode, I have an interview with two friends, two good friends. I just recently met the one in person for the first time.
Speaker 0 00:00:51 I've, I've done quite a bit with both of these guys, virtually or online. Today's conversation is about wealth and how should Christians think about wealth. This conversation is a conversation between two people, Titu who, who's passionate about helping the poor and believes that Jesus calls us to lay down our lives, not live luxurious lives. And that's kind of where I lean, That's kind of the framework that I've been coming from. And then Jason, who's passionate about building wealth and helping others build wealth and, and using our resources to, to help other people, just to clarify, we all believe that we should help other people, that we should help the poor. We also happen to all three be people who own our own businesses, or I think Jason and perhaps Titu have owned several businesses. The difference, I think, lies in whether or not wealth is something we should build and pursue.
Speaker 0 00:01:45 And that's kind of what our conversation centers around today is. How should Christians view wealth? I wanna say up front that there are many, many people in our lives in the last 10 years of our marriage that have been incredibly generous to Theresa and I in the work that we are involved in. And I am, we are indebted to them, not, not indebted in the sense that they're expecting money back necessarily, but we stand on their shoulders for the things that we've been able to do. They have made it possible. And, and I'm trying to process how, how, what is our role in, or anybody's role in actively engaging physically and with our time, while also not just being careless with finances. So, join us on this conversation and hopefully, I, I'm confident that it will help you think in new ways about your own finances and any questions or comments, things you have to add to the conversation. I'd love to hear that either in the comments, in the reviews on Apple iTunes. Let's continue to pursue how we can love God and others more deeply, more genuinely, with a more pure heart. All right. It is good to have Jason and Titus on unm. Christianity, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 00:03:30 Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:03:31 Thanks for invitation. I'm excited. This is what we figure out.
Speaker 0 00:03:35 Yeah. I'm excited for this conversation too. Just for a little background, um, if you've been listening to the podcast for two years or so, I think I had Titu on back in, Was that before the pandemic or at, uh, post pandemic?
Speaker 2 00:03:49 It feels like it was before where we talked about charismatic and baptism.
Speaker 0 00:03:53 Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:03:54 That was a long time ago.
Speaker 0 00:03:56 That feels like it was before a lot of the chaos of the last couple years, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, yeah, just kind talked about your journey of faith and journey into, in and out and back. So I've to know Jason through a group that was started, I guess was back in 20 with everything around the George Floyd murder, George Floyd's death, and, and just the different racial tensions that flared up, especially in 2020. Uh, we were part of the restorative faith group that, um, I think you've actually done more with them recently than I have. I, it's been a while since I've been a part of anything there, but,
Speaker 3 00:04:42 Well, I touch base with them from to time, obviously recovering from, uh, the covid years has been, we have a lot of work to do. And, uh, but I do very much appreciate the people. I, I think they're doing God's work, There's no doubt about it. Admire that we, we need more answers, Even this conversation right here. We need more nuanced answers in our world, I think.
Speaker 0 00:05:07 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 3 00:05:08 Different sides that have these that really hold and I think helps us understand each a little better, have the goals, just different ways of getting there. And I'm here to learn. I'm sure I'll learn something new tonight and end up doing something differently cause of
Speaker 0 00:05:29 It. Yeah. Yeah. So the, the conversation we are discussing is about wealth and just kinda, I think I'm gonna title the episode just, um, how Christians should Think about wealth. It's, it's pretty open ended. There's a lot of different angles. We, before we hit record, we've been talking about different things that we wanted to be sure and talk about. But, um, specifically since, excuse me, since 2020, I've been following Jason on Facebook. I think, I think I follow you on Instagram as well too, maybe. But, uh, it's been interesting following Jason and his, He, he is, and I think the fact that he's in a suit, and I'm in a t-shirt kind of tells the different economic states perhaps. But he is, he is a businessman. And I remember we were having a conversation one time through Messenger, maybe, um, just about race and some of the racial conflicts and, and why, I forget exactly what we were talking about, but I was asking something along the lines of like, why you engaged this conversation.
Speaker 0 00:06:40 You, you have, and I don't know if this is how you always are. I started following you in 20, so I, if that was unique to 20 or if you were always this way, but you would step into conversations that I was like, That's a bomb waiting to go off. Wasn't even gonna enter that conversation, cuz I knew it was gonna be difficult and you would, you would enter it. And I always thought you did, you handled it well with Grace. And, and I just remember asking you about that in your response was something of to the effect that you felt, particularly perhaps with 2020, there was an opportunity to have conversations, but at the end of the day, you're just gonna go, despite whether racism is fixed and the issues of American society, you're gonna go, and I, I'm not at all quoting you verbatim, but you're gonna go make a better life in spite of it, in spite of the systems that have been developed through America and so forth. Um, and I, I wish I could remember the details of that.
Speaker 3 00:07:45 Yeah. Better. I remember it because several people have asked me that. I mean, I was a youth pastor for three years in between a lot of this business stuff, if you will. And so not very common for pastoral people, for good reasons to get into the sort of virtual brawls that go on. So I can 100% understand. I think someone reaching out to me, and you said it very nicely, but I think you basically reached out to me and like, what's your angle? What, you know, and I, I appreciated that looking to understand my heart on the issue. But, um, I can tell you the book that inspired, uh, my approach, uh, was a book that was written by a billionaire, unsurprisingly. And, and I happened to, um, read a lot of books growing up. And I think that's part of why I started those businesses.
Speaker 3 00:08:34 First business at second at 17, that business was funded when I was, uh, 2020, I forget now, um, early twenties at evaluation of just over 3 million. And, and, um, and at that point I was like, what do I, what do I do with my life? Because I wasn't cash rich, but it was like, I can do more. And so I ended up becoming a youth for three years. It was a great period of my life. I did some very interesting things with that time. Uh, for a period of time, I watched the movie every single day. I had extra time on my hands. My job was to essentially exist in that community and young people would come by and questions. And so I had time hands, and the same thing happened during I had time on my hands. And the question was, wisely taught well by Mennonites growing, started books by billionaires going the experience, hunger starvation statistic early on in bit.
Speaker 3 00:09:33 And, um, and I said, What could I do? And I felt like, well, if no one else does anything, if I was a billionaire, at least I could do the most <laugh>. I don't know. And so I started, I figured, okay, well, reading books by millionaires obviously worked for me. I simply did what they said they did. I mean, it wasn't that complicated. And so I figured I'd read Books by Billionaires, it was a little more complicated. But, um, and one of those books, uh, by Reedman, the founder of LinkedIn, I think LinkedIn sold to Microsoft for 0.9 billion. He effectively said, the way to build great organization doesn't have to be money oriented, but a billion organization or nonprofit, was to tie yourself to essentially the backs of a social movement. Very dangerous idea. But, uh, Donald Trump did it obviously with, uh, what was happening with immigration.
Speaker 3 00:10:24 He tied himself to the back of that movement. I mean, this is a guy in New York City who made money off of Mexicans. Okay. He didn't have a problem with immigration for dozens of years, Right. But, but there was that growing sentiment in parts of America, including the part where I grew up, that these people were coming in, they were taking jobs and all of this sort of thing. And so he tied himself to the back of that movement. And in the same sense, what do you know? I, I was reading the book and m was marching in the streets, and I wasn't necessarily marching with them. I mean, I just happened to be black is the way I saw it. But it was a movement that I could tie myself to the back of that movement. And that's exactly what I did. And, and got a lot of new connections and friends because of it, including you. Uh, and so people are often surprised that I'm not that far left. Okay. It was, it was business. It was, instead of taking ad spend ad dollars and putting my message out to the world through social channels, what most companies do, I was effectively tying myself to the back of a movement. Ok. I was identify with those people, with their calls, with their struggle and effectively selling my company, my personality and my products on the back end of it. So I think some people would find that unethical. It works.
Speaker 0 00:11:43 Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to me. I I just remember your, your comment about like, in spite of the, in spite of racism or in spite of the racial pushback, tension and stuff, Right. You're gonna make a better life. And a lot of people in some of your comment threads will, like, I've seen people tell you to go back to Africa, people to like, if you don't like, um, like insinuating that, like you're just complaining and you're not, you know, you need to go make a better life. Right? And I, to me, it's, it was interesting that like he, he actually is doing that. Like, that's his, that's his goal. Um, in spite of whatever negative obstacles might come your way, um, you want to make yourself better. You want to become richer and help other people.
Speaker 3 00:12:37 Yeah. Yeah. And, and the whole thing with the movement that's almost a footnote in this conversation, was that we shouldn't be putting the responsibility on Black Americas to make their lives better. And I basically agree with that. We should be, But at the end of the day, if you wanna do well financially, you do have to take responsibility for your own life at some point and take on responsibilities. There are other people's. And so yeah, that's effectively what I was doing. I was willing to take advantage of that moment, and I did. And I don't regret it. And I, the way I see it is there's an inheritance that we all have. Some of it's a spiritual level, inheritance heritage kind of thing. Uh, you see it a lot in Amish Mennonite communities with their big farms. They're passed down to multiple generations. And what I realized in that moment is as a black, uh, American, I didn't get that kind of inheritance, but there was a billion dollar movement that I could effectively use to power my own goals. And that's what I did. I looked at it as an inheritance. And so that was inspired by the book. I'm not suggesting that it's 100% right. I don't see anything wrong with it, particularly. I think it's a dangerous concept, you know? Um, some of the world's dictators use different movements and sentiments within their countries to do awful things. So it's one you have to be very, very careful with. Of course.
Speaker 0 00:13:57 Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So that has, that's kind, I guess, some backstory maybe to how I got to know Jason and started noticing his, his passion for building wealth. That's pretty, would you say that's, you're unashamedly that's a goal of yours? I mean, you talk about it on your, on your social media feeds, is to become a million a billionaire?
Speaker 3 00:14:24 Um, it's a goal right now. I think you came in my life at a time, the way I look at it, I don't wanna spend my life doing this. I would rather focus on it, you know, like sort of 85, 90% of my focus on a goal like I did with youth ministry. I mean, I was there, I was a hundred percent there in the community. I put the business on Pulse. Um, so, you know, I, I didn't go back to see my parents for a year, that sort of thing. And, um, and now there's this, this sort of three year period, I do my life in three year periods where yeah, the goal is to become a billionaires, you know, it's some 29, i, I really wanna get there before 30 or by 30. And, um, but I don't want spend my thirties and forties building. Well, no, I get into trouble for saying that if I have the right, right or wrong shareholders, But I mean, the goal is to build a brand and then to put it out there and have people managing it, and then to go back to our quiet lives deep in the country, I think we'll accomplish it.
Speaker 0 00:15:21 Yeah. Interesting. So the, uh, the gist of this conversation kind came to a head when on a Facebook post, uh, and Titus follows Jason as well. So every now and then Titus will drop a comment, and I usually, I don't necessarily comment, I just like am challenged and thought or amused by the back and forth or whatever. Um, <laugh>, I remember one time, I think it was on Instagram, you posted a picture of a yacht was like, Who wants to buy a yacht with me or something? And I was like, Oh, that's like one, one of the things I like about following you is you think of things that like, I'm not at all thinking about buying yachts right now.
Speaker 3 00:16:02 Good.
Speaker 0 00:16:04 So, was just intriguing. It's like, Oh, what are do with the yacht? And so anyways, the were discussing before, we can't really remember the specific post that, that Titus was commenting on. But essentially the question, I guess is, and, and may Titus maybe you, uh, wanna jump in and, and give more context to this, but I think the question that we're wrestling with, and if, for those who don't know Titus, I kind of assume my audience would, would have more, um, familiarity with Titu because a lot of my audience overlaps with that Jesus podcast, which he co-host with Drew Latin. But, um, just for context, Titu gives, uh, part of that Jesus podcast, they have, is it five or seven kind of spiritual formation goals or rhythms that you would
Speaker 2 00:17:02 Yeah. Um, so I I call it mirror devotion, which is devotion, a riff off of CS Lewis and Uncreative title for Yeah, I guess my spiritual brand if, if, if we're talking brand since Jason's in the room. But one, one of those, I assume where you're going with that is one of them is caring for the poor. Like, one of the values that I, I try to champion on the podcast and in my life in general is a care for the poor.
Speaker 0 00:17:27 Yes. That is where I'm going. And, and so that's kind of the question I think is Titu, Titu is focus on caring for the poor and some of, some of the, the teachings of Jesus that exhort us in that direction, in tandem with the, the, the vision of Jason to grow wealth, which I think is also is a part of caring for the poor. I, So the question for this evening is, is it right or wrong to pursue wealth? Or how do we care for the poor? Like, do we care for the poor by giving all our wealth away to the poor? Do we care for the poor by becoming wealthier ourselves and then giving to the poor? How do we, how do, Yeah. How do we understand, and maybe I'll just open this question up if you guys think this is a good place to start. How do we understand Jesus' teachings to his disciples in how they handle money and how they handle wealth? And I don't really care who goes first, but yeah,
Speaker 2 00:18:41 You have a specific teaching of Jesus. You said a lot about money. We down a little,
Speaker 0 00:18:50 Well, I guess was specifically wanting kind of the, the broad stroke. Like what, what are your, as you look at, assuming we we're not really gonna have time to dive into specific teachings of Jesus, but assuming that we have read the gospels, uh, particularly Luke is the, the gospel that he speaks the most about money, um, what is kind of your takeaway of what Jesus wants us to do with money? And kind of one of the questions for, for our audience, one of the questions that I asked Jason and Titu is there are places where it seems like Jesus speaks negatively of wealth. And then there are places like the sh I think it's called the parable, the shrewd servant, where it looks like he speaks positively of wealth, like he should, The story looks like the servant is misusing his master's money, but Jesus frames that as though he's the hero of the story. Like, that was a good, a good way to handle money. And so how do we interact with, with Jesus' teachings on money, kind of as a whole? Like, what's kind of the, the large takeaway? And then from there, maybe we could have some questions for each other, that narrow, narrow sound. Does that sound good or is Sure. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:20:11 Jason, you wanna take a shot at this first? Or you want me to go first?
Speaker 3 00:20:15 Yeah. And just to make this interesting, why don't you critique what I'm saying? I mean, I'm actually fairly open to that because I don't think I'm right about everything. I think there's the personality that comes across online. I'm gonna have to obviously do something about that before I try to do anything major in public. But people often get the, the idea that trying to be a know it all. Now I'm trying to be confident, you know, but, uh, I'm, I'm open to correction. Uh, but as a general rule,
Speaker 0 00:20:43 My general, I think just, just to jump in, I think all three of us have personalities online that aren't entirely accurate to who we're outsized <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:20:52 It, it's a problem with social media. It, you know, we could spend years, um, going back and forth with people and not really know really where their part actually is on a matter. Yeah. As a general rule, just so that we're clear now, 29 year old me believes absolutely that I should make as much as I can and help as many people as I can that like, like no limits. You know? You know, like if you told me that by 33 I would be making a hundred million a year, I, I wouldn't think that's enough. Okay. So obviously I can, I can 100% understand, um, how there's multiple people, um, watching this. I'm sure that would think that's, that's insane. You know, that's just way too much money for one person. But we're called in the Bible to have dominion over the earth. And, and what one thing I've learned, um, circulating in the world, I mean, uh, spending time in, uh, in, in college communities, looking for people to hire, uh, spending time with youth is most of the, the US population, the world population, um, isn't capable or isn't interested in managing huge operations.
Speaker 3 00:22:07 And, and so what happens is a lot of things get mismanaged. Um, and so there, there has to be someone who essentially makes the money, creates the jobs, all of that sort of thing. Or else what happens is what you see in certain parts of the world where that sort of activity isn't allowed. You'll see whole communities going hungry, you know, uh, various forms of communism, for instance, you know, where the government overreach is extreme and pandemic sweeps through, and the literally lock a, a city with millions of people up and, and people starve. I mean, it's mismanagement like, And so one of the things that, that we're blessed to live in the United States of America, it's just put it that way, as in 2022, we're blessed to live in the United States of America. I I say any 19 year old, any 18 year old, any 20 year old who wants to, has time on their hands can become a millionaire by 30 if they want.
Speaker 3 00:23:01 And as a general rule, I think they should. I don't necessarily think that wealth is the answer for everyone, though. There's certain times in my life where having a lot of cash is not a healthy thing for me, and I had to go do something else with my life for a time or lock money away and hard assets because, you know, I just wasn't gonna be responsible with that money. And, and so we can get into the, the corrosive, uh, side of wealth and well can be very corrosive. And we talk about communities like Palm Beach. I lived near Palm Beach for several years, and I moved there because one of the former presidents of the United States was running for office. I thought he would win, and I wanted to network my way into his community. And so by, I don't know, year two, I was, um, I was, uh, a youth pastor at a church where two of them got to go to his house.
Speaker 3 00:23:53 And so I was connected. And, and by year three, I had friends that work there. And so, and, and so that's just the way I am. I, I have a personality. Um, I've been told I have an international face, and so it, I believe I'm supposed to use my talents and just use them. Well, I mean, there's certain things I am not very good at. I don't wanna be like Samson and advertise what those things are. But, but there's certain things I am very good at. I mean, you can drop me off in a city with nothing, nothing to my name. And, um, by the end of the day, I'll have a business partner. By the end of the first week, I'll have a car, and by the of the first month, I'll have to live. That's just, that's just the personality. It's a talent that are given.
Speaker 3 00:24:36 And so, so believe going out and using those talents to build as much wealth as and help people. Now here's probably where my philosophy will differ in a more extreme way from many of your viewers. And I don't necessarily believe that giving money away is the best way to help people. Um, obviously, um, I'm pro reparations, but that's different. I see that as, and it's not just because I'm black. In fact, I don't necessarily think I should get us level reparations because my family was from the Caribbean. They were governed by the uk. And so if reparations are ever passed, it's interesting. I don't necessarily think that I should get a check from the US government. But, uh, that being said, for the most part, I believe safety net programs should exist. But giving money to people that are poor is a terrible idea. I think that what we should do is give them opportunities and train them to work and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 00:25:36 And so I think one of the best things that Christian business person can do is create jobs. I mean, jobs are incredible. You go to communities where people have jobs, they can take care of their families, their children have dental care, they can educate their children. They don't have to depend on the government and hope, hope the government gets it right. Uh, you know, good jobs, you know, 60, 70, $80,000 a year jobs. I do believe it can be a mission build to go out and great 50 to 100 of those. And there definitely is the opportunity to do that in America. And I think that as many Christian business men as possible should do that as often as possible. So, um, but why, uh, well, it's, it's, we're called the Bible. A man that doesn't provide for his family is, what does it say, worse than an unbeliever, something like that.
Speaker 3 00:26:24 And I could go on and on and on. I, I really don't want to sit here. And two, our horns, I, I think that we could have done better. There's definitely money that we wasted, but we do try to give. And my mother taught me to give, and she, he basically said, If you don't give, God won't bless you. Um, that may be taken it too far. But my mom wasn't perfect. I'm, I'm glad she drilled it into me that way. And I can trace the Maserati I drive to giving I did three, four years ago. So, you know, Yeah. I do believe we're called to, to do the best we can with her life now. We can get the whole conversation of accumulation of wealth. Um, like I said, for me personally, I'm not the kind of person that 29 years old that should necessarily have a hundred thousand dollars in cash sitting around at all times. Some people, for some people, it's, that's a good thing to do for me. I have to rush that money off into assets that, that create wealth for my family and will take care of my children if I die, that sort of thing.
Speaker 0 00:27:28 Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I, I wish I would've known. I mean, I'm, I'm actually older than 29, but I look back at 1819 when I when I had, you know, I was working full time, I had a lot more money just sitting around. I wish I would've had a little more training back then of, of assets and investments and, um, using money in a wiser way than just spending it on things that really, you know, are, are like a width in the air. They, they don't last real long. Titu, I'm curious what, or Yeah, were, were you gonna have a comment?
Speaker 2 00:28:10 Jason? Are you asking Jason?
Speaker 0 00:28:12 Yeah, it sounded like he say something.
Speaker 3 00:28:15 Oh, no, no. I'm actually listening. I'm very curious what will say, basically laid my position out Sure. To into more details. M curious what you like. Should a young Christian business person be focused on making as much as possible so he can do as much good as possible?
Speaker 2 00:28:34 Yeah. Well, first of all, I, I could use some of that financial training myself. I bought a bunch of Bitcoin a couple months ago, that hasn't turned out very well. Um, but in answer to your question, yes, I own a business. I make as much money as as possible. My wife started a business when she was 13, um, when we had kids, she stopped doing that business, but she has a part-time gig right now where she makes as much money as possible if you're doing a business, do it well and, and try to succeed. In fact, most of what you said with, with a few exceptions, I I agree with a hundred percent. I think it was maybe Wesley not sure. Someone, someone famous in, in Christian history said, Make as much as you can. Save as much as you can, and give as much as you can.
Speaker 2 00:29:21 And I wholeheartedly endorse that. Um, I'll, I'll kind of lay out my case here. So the, the last thing I want to do is come across as sort of a curmudgeon who's trying to reign on, on your parade and, and be like, No, Jesus says you need to hate money, and therefore, you know, you, you follow the word of God and repent. I I I really think that if, if we're radically devoted to Jesus, like if we are madly in love with him and our hearts have been awakened by the Holy Spirit to follow him with passion, then everything else is, is gonna fall into place. Like when I was in, in my upper teens, I was in the beachy church, and, uh, some of my friends and I had that experience where we were awakened out of our Luke warmness, our apathy, and just wanted to live with th this radical abandoned for Jesus.
Speaker 2 00:30:19 And one of the first things that God showed us in, in that time is that a, a lot of the older generation, especially within the Beachy Church, were consumed with making money. You know, like conservative Mennonites don't have a lot to do with their free time. You can't watch tv, you know, <laugh>, it's, it's a can, can, can be a little boring, but one thing you can do is have a, a perfectly manicured flower bed and a, a amazing truck and a successful business and a big house. So it's kinda like all that's left to be worldly about. And, and I think that a lot of conservative Mennonites get really worldly when it, when it comes to money. And so God was convicting us about that. And at the same time, we were reading some really radical things that Jesus said about this topic. And so we started preaching to everyone and an anti materialistic message that made us lots of enemies.
Speaker 2 00:31:13 Um, but, but some of these really hard teachings, and, and I, I just wanna to lead with some of these are, are found in Luke. I would say Luke talks probably more about wealth than, than the other, uh, gospel authors. He certainly, like his, his account, um, has Jesus saying more radical things, such as like his version of the be attitudes and this version of the Be attitudes is, is rarely mentioned. Usually people go to Matthew for reasons that I, I think will become clear, cuz in Matthew, we have the familiar version where Jesus says, Blessed are the poor spirit. Well, Luke doesn't say poor spirit. He says, Blessed are the poor. Full stop. And, and you can be <laugh>. I remember we had a little dust up on Facebook about this Jason, where you're like, Well, so blessed are the rich as well, except that a little bit later, uh, Jesus says, Whoa to the rich.
Speaker 2 00:32:03 And I think this is, this is such a, a key part of the ethos of Jesus's teachings and the way of the kingdom of God, where we look at someone with a lot of wealth and we always say, Oh, he's so blessed. You know, um, someone asks how you're doing? Oh, we you, you're staying busy at work. Yeah, We're so blessed, um, that that's what we view as blessing, as wealth. Jesus is coming directly against that and saying, No, wo to the rich. And we look at poor people and we pity them. We're like, Oh, it'd be awful to be in that situation. Jesus says, They're actually the ones who are blessed. And, and the rest of the be attitudes go down a similar line. Um, also then in Luke 12, Jesus talks a lot about wealth. And toward the end of it, he tells everyone who's listening to him.
Speaker 2 00:32:48 This is not just the instance of, of the rich young ruler. He tells the whole crowd. And, and generally when we, when Jesus says something to all of his disciples or all of his listeners, we take it to be authoritative for us as well. Here's what he says, Sell your possessions and give to charity. Okay, so what, what do we do with, with commands of Jesus like this? Cause I have possessions. I'm not selling them. I mean, I, maybe I should leave this podcast and just have a yard sale, right? I I'm not selling all of them and, and giving all the money away. One thing we, I don't think we can do is just dismiss them and explain them away. And I get so tired of people who, who take a literal reading of Jesus' command to love your enemies, a literal reading of Paul's command to cover your heads when praying or prophesy for when men, uh, and they say, We just stick to what the Bible says.
Speaker 2 00:33:38 And then Jesus says something like, Sell your possessions and give to charity. Oh, that, yeah, we, that he didn't really mean that. I mean, <laugh>, maybe not May. Maybe there's a way that, that we can get away without actually doing that, but we at least need to sit with it and be just as uncomfortable with that as we are with Jesus' radical command to, to love your enemies. I don't have the answers to that. I just wanted to start with, with some of the more shocking things, um, that Jesus had to say. I think like the, the, the bulk and, and, sorry, I'll, I'll try to wrap up here soon. Um, the, the bulk of of what Jesus teaches on wealth is simply to not, to not worry about, you know, where your financial provision is gonna come from to trust in, in the provision of the Father to seek first the kingdom.
Speaker 2 00:34:22 And all these things will be added. Like that's, that's, um, what he said in the Sermon on the Mount. So if I'd really wanna boil down like an answer to your question, Asher really wanna boil down what in a nutshell, Jesus taught on, on money, it's trust in your father, seek for first the kingdom of these things will, will be added to you. So like there, there are a couple things, um, that I, I think are okay and are permissible for Christians. And, and if, if someone is, is like you are Jason, where you have this natural gift of, of making money and you're passionate about it, I think you should make a lot of money. So yeah, I, I think making an obscene amount of money is, is perfectly fine for a Christian with, with a couple caveats. I I don't think you should neglect your family or other relationships. Um, you should not neglect your faith or disciple making and certainly not use any unethical means.
Speaker 3 00:35:14 Jesus said that we should sell our possessions and give to the court. I agree with that, absolutely. But how I would respond to that is doesn't that mean we should have possessions to give? Uh, and then what happens once you sell those possessions, shouldn't we go out, get more possessions and then do it all over again? And that's kind of, that's kind of how I see that chapter. In other words, um, it's this constant reinvention of self, but not in a humanistic way where we're constantly disposing of the sort of earthly trappings that we've accumulated to get to whatever level we've been blessed to get to. And then effectively, uh, going to the next level, you know, working hard at that level and then disposing of, of all of those trappings and then going to the next level, next level. I, I don't think so much it, the Bible is preaching against coming by possessions.
Speaker 3 00:36:15 I think that what, uh, Jesus didn't want us to do was to get to the point where our hands were our, our class so hard around, around those things. Like, like if I, one of my rules for a living is I've been blessed so much. Now you go back to as a teenager running a business, and sometimes I'd leave home and I wouldn't have the gas money to get to work, but what I knew, my business mind, what I knew is that if I simply got to the city, I would be net positive for the day. In other words, the way my mind worked is I couldn't afford not to go to work whether I had the gas money or not. And so there's this period, uh, as a teenager where I was working with youth in ministry and I'd spend my money, you know, taking them out to these sort of restaurants and, and interacting with them and you know, all the things that you do when you work with youth.
Speaker 3 00:37:06 And that was an hour away. And then I just, I, I'd come home after essentially long weekend and, and start over again and go back to work. And I, I wouldn't have gas money to get to work. I, I was, I owed lawns and so often I ran out of gas on the way to work, but I always felt like God would take care of me. He always did. I think I, I counted, I I ran outta gas something like 30, 33 times during that period. And <laugh> one time I ran outta gas on the way home from work midnight. And that was actually really great for me. I just went up to some random strangers house and I knocked on their door and was like, I ran outta gas. And they were like, and I was like, Oh, my phone was dead. Uh, and they just invited me in some lady all yes, at home alone just invited me into her house and said, uh, yeah, you can call your parents.
Speaker 3 00:37:47 But my point is, I, I learned a lot about, about people that way. Uh, people that helped me when I was effectively at my lowest financial point, maybe not the absolute lowest, but in a sense broke and, uh, and so I felt called to, to do that for other people. Uh, I still feel called to do that for other people. And so it, there are several people in our family, whereas if you ask them for money, they will help you, they will help you. They haven't, they absolutely will. And, um, I'm not quite that way because I tend to think, well, I can use that money better invest it, I can help 'em in a better way. Maybe I can get them into the car rental business instead of just giving them cash and then they'll have recurring income. But, you know, if I see a homeless guy, um, I'll give him a ride in the Maserati.
Speaker 3 00:38:33 And, and the way I, the way I feel about it is, um, if there ever comes a day where I can't pick up a homeless guy and give him a ride, uh, the longest ride's been all the way from, uh, up north to Florida. That was 1100 miles. I regretted it part way into the journey, uh, because confused to stop smoking. And I just, I, you know what I mean, I, I, I understood I was signing up for something, but, um, that bothered me tremendously. But, but it was good for me. You know, it's just a car, you know, I don't like if people smoke in my vehicles and, or, or make them dirty, but it's just, it's just a car. It doesn't matter if it's a, a nice car. And I, and I think as long as that's true, then I can drive a Maserati and I just, I feel like the day that changes where I care more about the, the items than people, then maybe I personally shouldn't have one. And so that's kind of my response to that question. I think for some of us, there are certain things we can have, and for others of us, there's certain things we shouldn't have. Um, and ultimately we should be willing to get rid of anything if God calls us to, for the sake of the gospel, for the sake of the kingdom.
Speaker 2 00:39:48 Yeah. We, we can get into the Maserati. I I do wanna reiterate though that, like I said earlier, my, my problem is not with the, the, the generating a lot of income as much as what you do with it. But, but another issue that I, I kind of have, and and you, you mentioned this earlier, Jason, is you said that you can trace your Maserati to, to ways that you were generous in the past. So at, at least in, in my mind, that's textbook prosperity gospel. So do you embrace the prosperity gospel? Like this idea that if we give money, then God will give us financial blessing in return, that it's always God's will for his people to be wealthy and healthy. Um, because that the, it's widely denounced like across virtually every Christian tradition as a hairy, um, Right. The
Speaker 3 00:40:45 Traditions are not the gospel. Now, I think that the prosperity gospel you speak of in of, of itself is like a religion. You know, my, my views on Christianity are actually pretty extreme. I think that if Mennonites were Christians, they'd be called Christians. Mennonites are Mennonites, people that are of the prosperity gospel are obviously they serve that first. So not quite is what I'd say. But I would say without the trappings of the term prosperity gospel, that the, the gospel is a gospel of true prosperity. I mean, someone who is living in sin, uh, a ratchet poor center dealing with drugs who comes into the kingdom is not gonna be looking like that a year from that, uh, from that. Sure. And so, um, I think stories are one of the best ways to communicate things. I mean, I, I could have been an app academic, I'm not really, Stories are great.
Speaker 3 00:41:38 And so, you know, this is probably a pretty graphic story, but because of poverty, my, my mother grew up in a, in a neighborhood where, I mean, they didn't have locks on their doors. I, you know, I'm told that either her, her siblings or sisters, I don't know, they hate if I put this on online, but were raped growing up because they did not have the, the physical security. There wasn't a man around, I don't know the whole story, but people would just come into their house and sleep with them. And, and that's part of my mother, I believe, took a vow poverty. And that's part of probably, I, I rejected that. I mean, she was raised by nuns and all of this, but at the same time, she, she has a deep appreciation obviously for, for what we've been blessed with in the United States, um, the, the inheritance and, and this and that, that, that came through being, being Mennonite, um, and part of a conservative Christian community.
Speaker 3 00:42:37 But, um, but I don't think so. I think she'd be against wealth. But the same time, I think that that spirit of being against wealth is part of what led to the lack of protection for her and her siblings growing up where, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> so poor, they didn't have underwear. They had to use newspapers for underwear. I mean, third poor. And so I, I don't think that's a godly thing at all. I don't think poverty is a godly thing. Um, the, that sort of extreme poverty where you have children going hungry, I, it's, it's, I do not see it as part of God's design and part of surely order. And so I, I tend to go on the wealth talk. Yes. I, that there is sin on either end of the spectrum, obviously. I mean, it's very easy go online. There are these sort of people that millions and millions of dollars and, and, um, and make a game out of, I mean, like the one lady who had a private jet, private jet's, a very expensive fly.
Speaker 3 00:43:38 I plan to get one, but, uh, I mean, it could be 20, 20, $30,000 to fly a private jet from New Jersey to Florida. Uh, just one trip. And, um, there's a lady who, um, she had a private jet, had access to a private jet and left her baby monitor in one country and literally sent the jet back to pick up that baby monitor because she wanted that baby monitor. So obviously, okay, that's, that's ungodly, Okay. I, her personally, But that's ungodly, right? Because that's a waste of money to spend that kind of money when you could used that money to I don educate a child or something. So, so I do believe there's sin on the upper end of the spectrum, but I also believe there's a lot of sin on the lower end of the spectrum as well. I, I think, I think that we, we should encourage wealth building, we should encourage good finances. We should encourage people to make as much as possible. I believe that thoroughly and, and teach people how to be responsible with that wealth corrosive. If you don't, there's a lot of bad things you can do with money. Um,
Speaker 2 00:44:50 I mean, I think it's important to distinguish between having your, your needs met and being obscenely wealthy, like Jesus did promise that if we seek versus kingdom, then all of these things will be added to you. So I think you could include, you know, physical protection, um, the ability to buy clothing. I mean, Jesus specifically mention clothing, food, and it's interesting, like, uh, there's been studies that show that, yeah, when people don't have their basic needs met, they are not happy. They, they're not able to live a, a fulfilled happy life when you're, when you have your basic needs met, um, that changes and you, you get happier progressively the wealthier you get. But there's a cap, and I'm not sure where the cap is, but it's not very high that like, people who make, for instance, $500,000 aren't necessarily any happier than someone who makes $80,000. So it's interesting to see that kind of playing out in the natural world as well. Um,
Speaker 3 00:45:46 I just, I, I've seen that, uh, video on that just recently. And I, I absolutely disagree with, I, I don't think that we should make decisions about our finances based on happiness. I think we should make them based on what we're called to be. And so they're saying the number is, you know, somewhere 75, $80,000 with inflation is probably higher now. And I understand why that is, because there is a certain point where you have money sitting around in your accounts and you start to feel guilty about what you haven't done with it. You start to sort of sit around dreaming up, like, I just got my wife robotic vacuum cleaner, and then you, I got an air filter, and then I was like, Should I, one, you know, upstairs, I, we even need one. But my point is, I constantly trying to figure out what else can we get and sort of see what you mean, the hamster wheel of wealth and how to spend wealth and how far to go is a distraction.
Speaker 3 00:46:38 Like, I think as believers, we're supposed to be, we're supposed to care more about people than things. And it's very difficult to do that once you have a certain amount of wealth. I, I would absolutely agree with that. But I, I guess where we differ is, I don't necessarily think that means don't go after the wealth. I think what it is, is it's an opportunity for us to grow as human beings, to get more creative about what we do with wealth, if, you know. And so I keep running into that upper level. There's only a certain, for a while, I really couldn't have more than a hundred thousand dollars around at the, at a time. I'm not gonna go into all the things that I do with money, but it wasn't all good. And so, um, but you know, at some point that my tolerance goes up and there's, and, and the more money that you can be responsible with, I think the better. And I, and I think it's just a, it's just a matter of growth. It's, it's, some people can be responsible with millions and millions and millions of dollars. I mean, they somehow figure out how to build whole new communities with it and how to fund hospitals like Milton Hershey did. Um, how to build safe roadways where less people die. I mean, they get very creative with wealth. And I think to those people, the more we give them, the better.
Speaker 3 00:47:52 My, my financial advice is, I would say quite dangerous because I didn't even graduate from high school. You know, I'm very careful not to talk people out of their path. Yeah. Puts us on a path for a reason. But I get what you're saying. See, we were given a life, and it's our job to use this life wisely, and we will, I believe, well, depending on how you understand how judgment day works and all of that, you just died our sins. Maybe we don't have to go through that. It's all paid full. But my point is, I, we're gonna be held accountable for what we do with our lives. And I do believe that each one of us on this call should use it very, very well. Um, so, so for me personally, you know, I can, I'm a, you know what I mean, My parents came to America 40 years from now, we have the ability to build wealth.
Speaker 3 00:48:40 There's still parts of our family living in poverty. I, it's my job. I think it's my mandate to go do something about it. And I, I feel like I can't have as an African American live on a $2 million property and, and claim I care about my people if I don't advocate for them on some level. And so that's just how I've chosen to, to essentially use my life based on what I was given. And I, I, I wouldn't necessarily suggest that you asked or go live on a $2 million property. I would be thrilled if I came to visit you in five years and you lived on a $2 million ranch in Colorado, and, and you were able to bring children in the city out there to go four wheeling and, and, and it was maybe not even a fancy house, but just a simple place and great place for your children to grow up.
Speaker 3 00:49:25 And, and when your sons got older, um, your daughters, uh, got older, you could subdivide the place and you'd all live in the same valley for hundreds of years to come. I, you know, I think that'd be great. That's a blessing. I mean, our family wasn't able to do that. Some people would say that's too inward focused. Well, my family came from a place in Jamaica where if you go back there today, we still own a farm. And, um, when my grandmother died, you know, the family simply gave some of the villagers land. The ones a blind lady that I go to see from time to time. And you know, my point is, um, they became wealthy for Jamaicans, I mean 10 children in my dad's family, and every single one of them made it to the United States. The United Kingdom or Canada First two made it to the uk, next one made it to Canada, I believe, and the rest made it to the United States chain migration.
Speaker 3 00:50:18 Right? I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a benefactor chain migration. And so, um, you know, so I have a cousin that, uh, graduated from Harvard. I have another cousin who graduated from Georgetown. She's a doctor. And, uh, I have another cousin who has a TV show with Chip and Joanna Gaines. It's called Homegrown. I recommend you go watch it. I mean, we're sort of a quiet family that's just sort of quietly become wealthy. The cousin who graduated from Harvard just raised 60 million for a park in Texas. They're turning part of a highway into park. I gotta go see it. Point is, um, these are just the, the skills that we were given. And, um, you know, I think our ancestors work really hard. All they dream that we, that they could have half the opportunity we do. And so it's, I believe my, my personal mandate to go and use the opportunity.
Speaker 3 00:51:05 Well, and there are side effects to it. There are young African American people I know who they see me and they say, You know what? We've never seen this before. We didn't know it was possible because Jason does it. We'll go do it. And they've gone. And, you know, I, I had a youth group, um, had a youth group. They're not African America, but I had a youth group, uh, where I was a youth pastor several years ago. I spent three years there. And since I left Florida, I mean, that group combined apparently is made over 50 million. We're talking about two dozen people. And so what, I'm not saying that was all healthy money, but, but you know, we can do things with that. And I think that, at least in closing for my remarks, I've talked a lot. I'd love to give tightness a chance to talk more maybe next time.
Speaker 3 00:51:51 Um, but my marks would be that wealth is like fire. Okay? Yes. Fire's dangerous, Okay? Uh, it's not for children to play with. Same thing for wealth. It's, you know what I mean? I, you do become wealthy. It's not a good idea to give a 16 year old a million dollars in cash on your debt. It's not a good idea at all. Ok. But, um, but within the confines of the proper enclosures, the, you know, the buyer is great in a furnace, and wealth can be great in the right, you know, container, um, in the right hands, um, with the right rules, with the right oversight, having a fire company or fine, maybe. So, um, that's kinda why I keep people like Titu in my life because I feel like I really went off, uh, the deep end. He would, uh, he would put his foot down <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:52:41 So, uh, that's pretty much my remarks. I, I'm, I am pro, well, I, I'm, I'm blessed. I, the wealth we have came from God, he can take it away. He can bless us with it all over again. I work hard. I don't believe my own wealth comes from me. I do believe it comes from God blessing our actions. And I think that should be our message going forward, that we should tell people, you know, wealth, everything, every good and perfect gift comes from above. Um, but that we should spend our lives doing good things and, and, and, and making as much as possible and helping as many people as possible. But giving away money is not necessarily helping people, creating jobs can be. Yeah. I think, I think we should look at every individual decision we ever have regarding money and, and ask, um, is, is this a Holy Spirit decision? Is this, is this what I should with this?
Speaker 0 00:53:35 Yeah, you, Jason Titu, do you have closing comments?
Speaker 2 00:53:41 Well, I, I do that, uh, Jason will, you'll give me a ride in your private jet, even though I bashed the notion that Christian shouldn't, should have it. Um, but yeah, no, I'm seriously, I I'm actually very inspired by you, Jason, like your passion for life and, um, your, your passion for your principles is, is inspiring to me. And this has been a, a great conversation, I guess I would say. Um, yeah, I would just wanna just just warn the listeners again about the, the danger of the prosperity gospel. Now there's, there's a lot of teaching and, and against it, and it, I don't know that Asher's listeners are, are in danger of falling into it, but just as an example. So I grew up in Kenya and a a lot of the, the women, especially in Kenya, work extremely hard and, um, you know, use their creative genius to, to be efficient with what they do.
Speaker 2 00:54:37 And yet they're not, they're not living in wealth. They, they are, are able to, to meet the needs of their families, um, through hard work, hardworking creativity, but, but they're not wealthy. And so, and, and then you have televangelist who go over to, to places like Kenya, like they would come all the time and, and preach the prosperity gospel. And that's been really damaging. So, um, I think, I think we need to guard against that. The, the other pieces. I, I think that we are all called to different things. Like Asher, you mentioned that a lot of your effort has gone into things that that doesn't make a ton of money, and I think that's a hundred percent legitimate. Like, um, uh, some people are are called to, to work at a job that makes 20 bucks an hour or 25 an hour their whole life.
Speaker 2 00:55:21 And that's what, that's where God wants 'em. That's where they're skilled, that's where they're able to, to bring blessing to their environment. Others are called to do more ministry like you do Asher. Um, and, and, and if you look at like the, the story of the rich young ruler, like he was obviously called to give it all up and, and do something radical. So I don't think that that sort of abandonment of our possessions and wealth and opportunity should be off the table either. But having said that, I think some people like Jason, for example, are called to make a ton of money. Um, if it's, if, if you're able to do it, if, if these people are able to do it in a way that is, is ethical and, and not neglecting relationships, like I said earlier, the, the real hangup for me is still on, on like, what do you do with that money?
Speaker 2 00:56:05 So say you make a million dollars a year, um, say a follower Jesus does that. Like how, how is he or she gonna live? Um, I think it would be an amazing testimony to the world if non-Christians could look at highly motivated Christians who are really gifted and who have businesses that are, are bringing blessing to the community by contributing to the economy and hiring people. And they're investing money that, that's bringing blessing to the economy. And then they, they, they expect that these Christians would be like living a life of want and luxury and they, they see them and they're like, Wow. Like why, why are you living just like the rest of us? And, and, and the response is, Well, I I actually care about children who are starving to death right now. Um, and, and here's how I'm using my wealth to, to meet the desperate needs of the world.
Speaker 2 00:56:55 Now that that same business man might need to buy $150 suit <laugh>. It might be a business investment. So like, I'm not saying that you're living in luxury. I have no idea what your lifestyle is like Jason. Um, but I, I think that yeah, whether you're making a ton of money, whether you're, or even if you're making what the average American is, is, is making or even less like you can, we can all sacrifice in order to, to, to be generous in order to care for the poor, in order to make a difference, um, in the world. So yeah, that's my spiel.
Speaker 3 00:57:25 All right. This has been a great conversation. I much enjoy it. We should do it again sometime very soon.
Speaker 0 00:57:30 Absolutely. Thank you for coming on. I, I've, I would say the last half hour, I've just been like, wow, very inspired and rethinking a lot of things just in my own view of wealth and view of of money. Thank you guys for coming on and being able to engage this conversation.
Speaker 0 00:57:50 Hi folks. I just wanted to take this time and say thank you for listening. It is fun for me to be able to sit down and interview people, but I really hope that these interviews and these podcast episodes are helpful to you in your journey as you sort through issues and, and try to reconcile your human experiences with God and what he says through his word. I would love to hear feedback from you. Obviously every episode has an email address in the description, so if you wanna shoot me an email message, let me know what you're thinking, what has stood out to you, whether positive or negative. Another really helpful way is to rate and review it on whatever podcast platform you're listening to. If it's on iTunes, I know you have the capability of rating it as well as leaving a review. I would love to hear whether it's good or negative feedback.
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