Speaker 0 00:00 Well, good afternoon everybody. It's good to be back on the podcast. It is been an intense months. In the last episode I mentioned how we had just moved, that was like the beginning of August and at the end of August I started school again and so it's been crazy intense. This is definitely the heaviest load that I've taken. I'm in the middle of a four year bachelor of Biblical Studies degree and so I am taking 12 credits this semester, which is a pretty solid 36 hours of school just between classes and homework and then working on top of that and then writing and blogging, everything else. I'm trying to stay on top of those things. But having a family and wanting to be there for my family is also the high priority for me. So if you're a reader and a listener, you have probably noticed that the blog kind of has gotten shoved to the back burner in a sense.
Speaker 0 01:05 And that is partly intentional. Um, it's not what I would like to do. I'd love to be able to stay on top of it all better. But how because schooling is something I feel both my wife and I feel called to that stage of life at this point and and because my family is my number one priority and in doing that I've got a provide for them. Right. So I do handyman work about 15 to 20 hours a week as well. So the blog gets shifted to late nights, early mornings, whatever margins of time and obviously with the blog, that includes the podcast as well. Although I am recording this at four oh seven Tuesday afternoon, so I have an afternoon to work on this. Enough about that. I'm just giving you an excuse. I had hoped to be more consistent in releasing the episodes and I think they will as we settle into our new home and into the new rhythm of this semester.
Speaker 0 02:09 But that's my excuse for why it's been like a month. Then a couple of weeks here and hopefully we'll get in more of a rhythm of at least biweekly. I have several guests I would love to bring on. I have enough stuff to talk about that would be enough for every week, but I don't know if I have the time to do that. So anyways, all that to say that now that we're in a couple, um, a couple episodes in, I would love to hear your feedback. We've looked primarily at issues of sexuality, uh, started with treating Metzker, talking about sexual abuse within the church and then last episodes of mural Burkholder on men taking personal responsibility for their sexuality. And if you have any questions about anything that we discussed, um, if you have something you would like to have here more flesh, excuse me here, fleshed out even more. Uh, shoot me an email.
Speaker 0 03:12 Excuse me. Something about that turned Siri on. So if you would like something fleshed out even more, if you have a question or a response to something that I said or one of my guests said, shoot me an
[email protected]. That is
[email protected]. And I'd also love to hear your feedback. Uh, if you're listening on iTunes, you can give a rating. You can either rate one to five stars and you can leave a review. I believe so. I would love for both and I'm not, I'm honestly not just looking for five star reviews. I'm obviously the good star reviews. Help get the message out further. But more specifically I would like to hear your honest thoughts, your honest feedback. Or these are these like three-star episodes or they one star. You should just write, forget podcasting. Just go home, return the Mike, get your money back.
Speaker 0 04:13 Um, let me know and if there's things you've really enjoyed about it, um, maybe things that could be improved or, or topics you'd love to address. Um, shoot me an email at podcast at <inaudible> dot com or leave a review on iTunes. You can leave stuff like that and review if you're leaving a review and if it is a good star or a negative start like c why you left that. So what you really like it, why do you really like it? You don't like it? Why don't you like it? Um, cause that's, that's really helpful. I, I listened to stuff like that because it helps me know, it helps me process what I could improve or it even challenges like in, in my looking at this the right way. If we're talking about a specific topic or whatever, I think you get the picture. Um, yeah, so I would love to hear, I always forget to say that I think I mentioned at the very first episode and I don't think I've mentioned it since, so if you're listening on iTunes, uh, give feedback, it's been really cool to see the reach that this has given.
Speaker 0 05:17 I actually get more downloads typically per episode than I do per blog post. So I think in a months time my blog posts usually like the typical blog post will get to about a thousand views in 30 days. And then if it got shared around or if it was extra, an extra big hit, it'll, it'll go over that. Um, but these episodes usually hit a thousand, uh, downloads within within a week for sure. Obviously, I think the treaty Minsker interview dead within a couple of days, but that's a pretty hot topic anyways, just to kind of give a heads up of where I plan to go. Um, sometime here I want to bring my wife on the show and we'll just talk about life and things that she has to share. She's, she's very wisely, so I can't wait to have her on. We'll see when we do that. I also have, uh, I'd like to bring on a couple of friends and discuss, uh, racial issues and the conversation of racial diversity in the church and how we can bring any sense of reconciliation if need be or even just open the conversation up.
Speaker 0 06:36 Is there any reconciliation that needs to happen? I think that's obvious, but, um, in our Anabaptist circles we might be a little, uh, ignorance to some of those things, but I have a few friends on the line for that. I'd also love to delve into more, uh, just more relevant issues that we as Anabaptists, especially if you're kind of wrestling with your, your faith or your church or whatever. Um, talk about that. I have a couple of people, like some of the guests that I have in mind I have not contacted yet, so I'm very hesitant to name them. But uh, I think you'll really enjoy them and in a hope to it. Actually it's on my to do list for tomorrow is to send emails to some of these people. I hope you've maybe seen the way Gingrich's blog series that he's doing on homosexuality.
Speaker 0 07:38 Was Jesus okay with homosexuality? I think my son just woke up from a nap. I hear him over there crying, so I'm going to go see if, if we know it sounds like my wife just got him. So as I said, you're going to get, all of me are houses kind of small, so you hear a lot of different things. Our floors laminate as well, so it, it might sound kind of hollow in here. I don't know. Anyways, my friend Wade Gingrich has a blog series going, I think it's a five part series looking at was Jesus okay with homosexuality? And this is a conversation that I also want to bring on the podcast. I've got a couple of friends that I would like to have on for that as well, particularly people who have faced same sex attraction and um, and as well as maybe hopefully I can get the white Gingrich on here also.
Speaker 0 08:38 So I don't think that'll be too hard, but that's just kind of a, an eight minute ramble here of where we're at and where we're headed. Hopefully headed down the road. Um, I, I'm excited for what's ahead and we'll see if, if God allows the time and the resources to be able to get these out for you guys. Uh, just by way of the heads up, I am currently, so most of you probably know that I partner with Patrion to support or provide income for writing. And I personally am a little bit averse to asking, Hey, support my work. I want to give something in return, something of value. And so with every level of patron patron, if you're not familiar with, is just a, a platform that connects creators with their, their fan base or their audience or whatever, people who appreciate their work and you can support the creator.
Speaker 0 09:48 For a dollar a month for $5 a month, you can actually choose whatever amount. But for, for myself, I have given three tiers that if you're giving this much, you get something in return as just a, a bonus of benefit. It's not intended to be exclusive, but just, just a way of saying, Hey, thank you for supporting. Thank you for becoming a member. Here's an extra bonus content. Um, and there's actually, to be honest with you, there's probably by now more content, more regular content for Patrion members than what is given free. Um, especially during the semesters when I'm in school. But there's many different levels of $5. Um, I'm sorry, there's three different levels for me, for many different reasons as $5, I provide a weekly video, less than I call them, kind of a weekly vitamin five to 10 minutes and just delving into a specific topic or issue that is relevant to us or helps us understand God or the Bible at a little deeper level.
Speaker 0 11:00 Um, for $15 you can access articles, blog articles that as well as the videos. So you get the $5 thing and then articles that delve in further into certain issues and then for $25 you get access to all of that and then a behind the scenes interview with a mentor or pastor or a Bible scholar or just a friend of mine or whatever as well as twice a year I open up enrollment into an online course that I've been developing this year. It's called the making sense of life journey and I currently have enrollment for that open and so you can go on Asher whitmer.com and you can find a blog post, the most recent blog post I have in that. I will also link it in this episode to the making sense of life journey page or you can just type in Asher Whitmer, then making sense of life journey in Google and it'll bring up and it shows the page just kind of shows the scope like what is this course about?
Speaker 0 12:04 And this is kind of the big resource, right? The biggest resource that I have available. And with the course you also get a free copy of my book live free or you can just go on Amazon and get the book. Uh, but the course is 25 the $25 level and it's just walking through the five or there's a six act play that we can kind of see revealed in the story of scripture. Um, you got God establishing a kingdom and he's good guide, establishes a good kingdom. Then there's rebellion in the kingdom and the fall of humanity and creation and chaos enters the world and then God initiates redemption by choosing Abraham and calling forth the peoples to be set apart and holy and raise up a nation who's going to bless all nations. And then Jesus comes and he accomplishes that redemption for us and he is the blessing to all nations and we find freedom.
Speaker 0 12:55 And then you have the commission of the church. That's the act five and that's where we are right now. And then act six is when Jesus comes back and completes the redemption. We're taken to heaven to live with him eternally. That's just kind of a brief rundown. This is a five month course that goes through all of that. And we just make, I call it the making sense of life journey. I'm not sure if that's the best title because we're, we're walking through scripture and the, the very first act and we look at some apologetic questions like, how can I trust the Bible? How can I trust this is real? How do I know? And so then we enter assuming that we're, we're, yeah, even if we're not 100% trusting scripture or whatever, we may have our doubts or whatever. We still can enter into this journey and see if this might help us make sense of the things we experienced today.
Speaker 0 13:48 And that, and basically the concept is that things are happening in our short lifespan that are the results of the things that happened long before we showed up on the scene. And so how do we make sense of it all? And I believe by getting to know God's narrative, we can make better sense of life today and, and also have a better idea of what we're supposed to do or why we, why things are the way they are, why we experience pain, why the church is supposed to be the redeem people. God, don't act, read email all the time and we just wrestle through some of those questions. I, I've, um, in this course I've provided a workbook to process your own story. I've provided a reef references to other resources. Some are books you can buy and look out on your own. Some are free resources like the Bible project and so forth that help you understand the story of scripture better.
Speaker 0 14:42 I also have interviews with people like, um, Valley Yoder, myrtle Burkholder, drew Latin, and just unpacking each of these acts a little further. Enrollment for that is only open twice a year at this point. And that's basically because I want to be able to interact as much as I can. This is just the second time I've run this course. 45 people took it the first time and now they're, I'm opening it up again for the next a week or so here. Yes, a little less than week two. I'm going to close it and we'll get started on the next one, but if you want to check that out and go to the Asher Whitmer, the making sense of life journey and again, if you just want to support the blog or the podcast, you don't care about the the course or anything, you can do that for a dollar a month for 50 cents a month or $100 a month for whatever you jolly will feel like doing at patrion forward slash Asher Whitmer, patrion.com forward slash Asher Whitmer or you can just go to Ashley whitmer.com and go to my blog, read the blog and there's a link to becoming a patient member.
Speaker 0 15:59 Anyways, all of that jargon to get to today, I, instead of doing a typical podcast, I wanted to share with you another thing, project podcast. I have had the privilege of being a part of my brother Christopher Witmer. Some of you may know him, has started a podcast with, uh, two other friends as he and I, and then two other friends of ours exploring the implications of a Jesus centered theology. Sorry, I got that wrong. Exploring the political implications of a Jesus centered theology. My brother has a real heart for engaging political conversations from a theological position where, where we are followers of Christ, right? And that, I don't know, it's kind of a complicated conversation or even thing to talk about because there's many people who claim to be Christians. In fact, we have this narrative about America being a Christian nation and so forth. And, but we're so divided politically, the nation in the world, the American world, the Christian world is so divided politically. And so this podcast was started out, I think the vision of it came, he was sitting in a class on just training about how to work with, with refugees and the, the, um, crisis in the Middle East. And how as anti baptists, we have something to offer that most evangelical Christians don't because we're not going to come over with our guns.
Speaker 0 17:41 And so, uh, that kind of the cure to terrorism is, is Jesus ultimately, but then exemplifying his suffering by entering into these dangerous territories, laying down our lives so that these people can come to know and seeing, feel it experienced Christ through our lives. We uh, are six episodes in so far, just today, the sixth one dropped the day that I'm recording this on. Um, this is going to come be released a couple of days later, but the, we we've looked at, so the first few episodes just kind of unpack like what do we mean by the third way or should Christians be involved in politics and you know, all those kind of juicy topics I guess. And then we get into, we have a guest on and talks about guns and whether or not Christian should use guns or whether we should have the second amendment or whatever. Then we talk about abortion as well.
Speaker 0 18:44 And we also talk about terrorism. So yeah, I'm going to just share the first episode with you. What is the third way? That's what we discuss on here. I'm just going to be, I borrowed, I got my brother to share the audio with me here. And so I'm just going to be turning it over to the third way podcast. If you want to know more about what the third way podcast is, who's behind it, uh, you and, and listen to other episodes or even give feedback, go to the third way, podcast.com the third way, podcast.com or you can look up on your iTunes, Spotify, wherever podcasts are, just look up third way podcast and you should be able to find it there. There are six episodes, but I'm going to play the first episode here today. And so I'm kinda cheating. I'm not doing an episode myself, but I wanted to share this with you all.
Speaker 0 19:42 It's a project that had been privileged to be a part of it. I don't know how involved we, we've done one season, we've got a couple of episodes to do yet, which will include a question and response episode. So if you are listening to it and you have any questions, any feedback you want to give, go ahead and email. I think Christopher says in the episode how you can get Ahold of us. Um, yeah. And, and then we'll respond and the question and answer response time. So I would, I forget what I was gonna say. Um, yeah, where listen to it and w we're going to do, we've done one season and then we'll be doing another season and I'm not sure how if I'll be able to make every time, but it's pretty much Christopher and then a friend, Titus skipper who are the constant hosts and then I'm on there pretty much every time Reagan Shrock from some of you may be familiar with him from Anabaptist perspectives and some other podcasts and video things he has done. Um, we're kind of the core four, but we'll see how the future seasons roll if it's something I will be able to continually do. But anyways, I wanted to share this with you so far and get this out to you. Plus feel like I've provided you with an episode sooner than a month later. And that's where we're at today. I'm going to let third wave take over here. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 21:12 When I look into the phase of my enemy, I see mine <inaudible>. Uh, when I look into the play my enemy, I see mine. Yeah, I see man.
Speaker 0 21:40 Hey, welcome to the third way podcast where we explore the implications of a Jesus centered theology. I'm your host Christopher Witmer, and on the Skype line I have my cohost, the dude from Charlottesville who does mission work on the side. Titus kept for everyone. Titus has an interest in apologetics and host the proselytize or apostatize gas. Did I say that right to them? That is correct. I was stumbling over that a little bit. We also have author, family man, newly minted podcast or end my brother Asher Witmer. Hey Asher lives here in la with his wife and three boys and is currently three, two or three episodes into his own fresh podcast. Unfun Christianity. Yes, we just did two so far. It's awesome. And last but not least, affectionately known as guy who actually has a life
Speaker 2 22:37 youtube or in podcast or Reagan's truck. Yes. I'm not sure if that title's entirely accurate, but I'll take it. I suppose it probably be easier to list the things Reagan does not have his fingers in
Speaker 0 22:50 most notably known for his podcasts, Anabaptist perspectives and for blowing things up.
Speaker 2 22:56 Tennessee is Tennessee yard and putting it on Youtube. Welcome to the podcast. Right. Thank you. Like I said, this is the third way podcast and you may be having a lot of questions about what that means. We have a lot of questions ourselves, so we are here to discuss it. What exactly the third way is. Um, we're going to be talking about Jesus and how that applies what it, what it means to have a Jesus centered theology and especially its implications when it comes to politics and everything that Apollo politics affects down to, um, whether or not Christians should participate in war or violence or what does it mean to be nonresistant, what does it mean to love our enemies? Um, all those questions and related we're going to be exploring here on the podcast and um, we're not, we're not claiming to have any sort of authority on the subject matter.
Speaker 2 23:52 We're here as a bunch of friends who like to discuss these things. We like to discuss Jesus Theology, um, and even politics. And so we just kind of wanted just to, to, yeah, hope, facilitate some discussions in, maybe help get people thinking along the way. Um, so often we get stuck in, um, our polarized, whether it's politics or religion or theology or whatever it is. We get stuck in, in a kind of two polar opposites where it's either your right or your left and, uh, we just wanted to offer an example. Then in every situation, there's almost always a third way to think about it. And, and w what Jesus offers usually doesn't line up with one polar end or the other. You, it's, it's usually some sort of third way, um, which is probably completely different than what anybody else offering. So we're here to talk about that. Um, if you have any questions, um, any, uh, objections, feel free to contact us. Um, we'll give all that information, um, at the end of the podcast. But Hey, welcome to the podcast guys. I'm really excited about this. What are you guys thinking about in terms of your excitement and your thoughts for the podcast?
Speaker 3 25:10 Yeah, I think this is, this is a great idea for a podcast because if you see what our, at least our culture is currently fascinated by, it seems like more people right now will identify with their political beliefs than their religious beliefs. And so whether that's a good thing or not, if that's what people are interested in talking about, I think it's important to bring the teachings of Jesus into that conversation and see what, what he has to say about at all.
Speaker 4 25:43 Yeah. I mean, I'm excited. Yeah, go for it. No, I was just agreeing with you. I'm excited for it as well. I, I think, I mean, I've grown up in an Anabaptist setting, which leans towards pacifism. Although my dad did vote and do, uh, was more involved in politics and what many conservative Anabaptists would typically have been. But especially living outside of the U S for a few years and seeing Christians who are like, I just discovered that American Christians are very political, politically minded and their faith almost revolves around their politics or their freedom or their, uh, po position or posture as an American more than it does around Jesus being lord of their life. And, and I was able to see that in some of my non-American, uh, brothers and sisters. And that has shaped a lot of how I think about I'm living my Christian faith even
Speaker 5 26:44 here in America and now that I'm back on US soil. And so yeah, I look forward to it
Speaker 2 26:48 discussing these types of things. Yeah. I think, um, the, the thing that got me excited about the third way podcast and, um, what got the whole thing rolling to begin with was I was attending a training with, um, that Reagan was a part of and he was talking about terrorism and its cure and, and, um, ray and you've done some studying about this at length and you were given a talk about it. And I, obviously Jesus is a cure for terrorism. Spoiler alert. Um, but, um, I don't, I don't even remember exactly what you were saying, but I think you were talking about the, the two extremes of, um, on one side, kind of the stereotypically Republican right side is to go the answer to terrorism is just to go and bond them, you know, out of existence and to smother them violently. Or the other option is to just stay at home and be passive and do nothing.
Speaker 2 27:52 And you just mentioned, you know, that there's a third way, and obviously this was in, in the context of talking about Jesus and the Gospel, um, and how, um, yeah, it's not necessarily that, that it has to, it has to be one of those options. But yeah, there's a third way. And I, and I just got thinking about that and I got really excited about the, the idea that, um, the answer to violence, um, doesn't have to be, do nothing. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be, um, either violence or we just sit at home and do nothing. But actually that we move towards our enemy with love. Like Jesus moved towards his enemies and reconciled them to himself. So yeah, I think that's, yeah. That that was what Kinda got the got this whole thing rolling.
Speaker 5 28:44 Mm. Yeah. And I think it's, I'm just commenting back on that training that was earlier this year. Uh, one of the things we're trying to do with that, um, and I mean there's a number of things, but we tend to think in extremes. Um, we say you're either one way or, or you're the other. And historically Anabaptism has not been that. It's, it's said, okay, here's your two options. Guess what? We're not going to choose either one. We're going to choose what the Bible says, which interestingly enough, during the reformation, that was a very novel approach. That's not how people viewed religion at the time where someone could just pick up the Bible and it says, well, hey, Jesus said, love your enemies. Okay, we're going to do that. Um, and there's something so refreshing about looking at your religion that way versus trying to fit it.
Speaker 5 29:33 Try to try to pull it apart and repackage it and put it in your nice little box. And, and that's Jesus doesn't really well in any box. Um, and, and we need to be okay with that. And we as humans don't don't like that because we like things to be where we can easily stick them on a shelf, but Jesus and his way, and especially the, what we're gonna call the third way, and this is way, way more nuanced than that. Um, and as a result, it actually does have the correct answers because whenever you try to stuff it into a certain box in certain parameters, the effect ability of how much it actually works and actually does what it says it's going to do, it starts falling apart because you lose all the nuance of who Jesus actually is. Um, and that's what really inspired me when, when I was doing that, that, um, class on terrorism, what's the nuance and what does Jesus actually say instead of trying to package it in our left or right boxes that we use so much today.
Speaker 4 30:33 Dovetailing on that, I think were Reagan said is really good. Um, and, and just to clarify for our audience that this third way that we're talking about is not our own preconceived package that we've colluded about, but rather we're going to enforce each other and our audience as a whole to come back to what Christ said, what Christ taught and as we address some of these issues of, um, violence and politics and so forth.
Speaker 2 31:05 Yeah. It's certainly not just, just something we're making up on the fly. Um, it, it has, it has it's basis in scripture. I hope that we're always looking to scripture, um, with every everything that we do, everything we believe. Um, but it also is rooted in history, in church history and um,
Speaker 5 31:27 hmm.
Speaker 2 31:28 And the early church and whatnot. Um, so it's, yes, it's certainly not something new.
Speaker 3 31:34 <inaudible> yeah. I actually googled the third way. Uh, and the first thing that popped up was sort of a center left political organization. Um, so I scroll down a little more. It came to the Wikipedia article on it, and this is what Wikipedia said, said the third way is a position akin to centrism that tries to reconcile right wing and left wing politics by advocating a varying synthesis of some center, right. And centers economic and some senator left social policies. And apparently Bill Clinton and Tony Blair were early adherence of the third way in the 19 hundreds. And I say that just to point out the, uh, the third, the term, the third way is already being used by political organizations to try to reconcile the political right and the political left. Um, but I also found it a Mennonite website that says, I think more what we're getting to.
Speaker 3 32:34 It says that the third way reflects the fact that Mennonites and Anabaptists are somewhere between Catholic and Protestant on many theological issues. A third way, and I think this is what you were saying earlier, Reagan, which <inaudible> in the Anabaptist tradition, I'm assuming that that's how the term started is, you know, they would say were weren't either Catholic nor Protestant. We're, we're a third option. And I think it's, it's, um, it's fitting to take that tradition and apply it to our current cultural landscape because I would say that right now, the political left and the political right divide the world a lot more than Protestant and Catholic. And I would say that's the case. Even in the church, you know, in the church, it's not as big a deal what denomination you're part of. At least when I scroll through Twitter, it's a lot bigger deal even within Christianity where you land politically. And so if we apply that tradition that started in the reformation, in the Anabaptist movement of, of offering a third option, if we apply that same mindset to our current ideological landscape that we find ourselves in, uh, I think it'll, it'll be just as powerful as it was back then.
Speaker 2 33:54 Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think maybe, maybe you guys will disagree with this. I Dunno, but, um, I think, I don't even, yeah, I really don't like via association that it's, it's even like a middle option between Republican and Democrat, even though we can, it's easy to kind of phrase it like that. Um, or between the right and the left, whether theologically or politically or whatever. Um, because the further away from the gospel that the left and the right get the, the first, you know, as long as those are the two extremes that you're hanging on to, the further away you're going to go. Even though you're still center, you're still gonna move with them. And so, I mean, if, if for example, if the whole world shifts left really liberal, then the center's going to shift left really liberal if the whole world shifts, right.
Speaker 2 34:49 Really liberal the centers. So it's so, I mean to a certain degree, yeah, like the third way or what we, you know, what we believe may end up being looking kind of center or looking kind of like an amalgamation of, of both republicanism and Democrat ideologies. That's not our focus. Like that's not what we're, we're not, we're not hanging on to one or the other. We're hanging on to Jesus and in the things that Jesus said in top, in, in the way that we feel like we need to follow, Jesus may end up sometimes looking like you're kind of center or it may end up looking like you're, you're kind of combining both ideas. Um, but I hope we're always, as Christians,
Speaker 4 35:38 we're always getting our ideas from Jesus, not from the two extremes. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 35:43 Yeah. And I like the way you put that, I think that kind of goes along with our podcast cover are, you know, we are, we are the Arrow, the third Arrow is in between the other two errors, but it's pointing in a completely different direction. And I think that's what the way of Jesus offers. It's like, yeah, you guys are sort of center your, you, you incorporate different elements of both sides, but you have a totally different focus. And I think, you know, nonviolence is, is probably the biggest way that we're different from the left and the right. Often the left and the right, we'll agree on one thing and that's that we should kill our enemies, you know? Um, so I, I would say that, you know, although we, we might be somewhere in the middle, we are definitely headed in a completely different direction. Yeah.
Speaker 4 36:28 I think, I think it's good to realize that like to the Anabaptist grew up in the reformation and so it was a unique era of history that framed their position. Um, the baby boomers grew up in a unique era of history that shaped their theology and their way of looking at church and faith and, and so are we. Like we're in a unique era of history and so obviously our view is going to be somewhat tainted by current events or current trends of, of deconstructing or reevaluating things. But, um, one of the things that we, that I think we all for resonate with and I think anybody in our generation resonates with. Going back to what Titus was talking about earlier as far as we don't, the church doesn't differentiate as much anymore over Protestantism or cat cause all this ism or whatever denomination. But it's more over your political affiliation.
Speaker 4 37:30 And so many of the, I don't even know what generation it would have been the baby boomers maybe, but they would have viewed their faith through their political affiliation. And so you have strong convictions that like I've heard a lot of people talk about the Republicans as if that is aligning yourself with the Kingdom of God. Um, now I've also heard that, and this is kind of a representative of our generation, I've heard millennials talk about the Democrats that sounded like that's lining up with the Kingdom of God. And both are completely, like they're the, the vision and the, the g the agenda, excuse me, I'm stumbling over myself. The agenda of the Republicans and of the Democrats is not for the Kingdom of God at all. Like their agenda is for, for building their own kingdom. And so they're, they're all ultimate goals. They're gonna go at it from two different places, but their ultimate goal is gonna be to build themselves and to secure themselves.
Speaker 4 38:38 And we as the third way embracing the way of Jesus love and, and fully seeking to fully embody that. In our life. Like we may actually lean into things that are harmful to us. We may actually pursue things that do not keep us safe or make us safe because we care about ultimately following Jesus. But in that, that many other people can come to know Jesus as well. And so like our goal, our agenda is not a nation or protecting ourselves is well, it is a nation. It's a kingdom, but the Kingdom of God. And so that's, that incorporates sacrificial love and, and all those many other things. But, um, yeah, just to kind of deep deconstruct, like I think the agitating point for us is seeing people point to a political party and say that's lining up with the Kingdom of God at the core. All political parties are scent set against God.
Speaker 2 39:37 Yeah. And, and it's kind of the idea of like back, you know, kinda touching what, what you're saying about the two different generations we had in the 70s, 80s and 90s, we had this, this whole push for the moral majority, um, where Christians really tried to bring about the Kingdom of God through political power. And, um, and, and so you end up marrying, um, the, the Kingdom of God or Christianity and our methods to bring it about with politics and power. And so then you get this, this weird mixture where, um, in the eighties, seventies, eighties, and nineties, you had the, the moral majority married to kind of Republican power. And nowadays, you know, with, you know, as, as a reaction to that you have the kind of a new rising moral majority of maybe some more minority on the left side where, you know, immigration and human rights and, um, civil rights and all kinds of, of these kind of semi Christian concepts are, are being, again, married to political power just on the democratic side. Um, and, and the thing is, is that, that I, I just think about, and I look at our generation and a little bit of the generation before us, um, as they, as they, as they strive to bring these things about through politics, um, bring the Kingdom of God through politics just through a different party. You know, it's not going to end any better than the previous marriage of, of morality and power or of, of trying to legislate morality through politics.
Speaker 5 41:34 Um, well and, and that's the, that's the fundamental issue. People have this concept that they can legislate morality through political power and they forget scriptures is very, very clear. We are strangers and pilgrims and we were strangers and pilgrims were literally the word would be the equivalent of alien or, or in an immigrant or uh, an illegal almost in our own country, wherever we, wherever that and now you have to be really careful with a statement like that. Cause then people are like, oh well they are, you know, you don't take any civil responsibility or those people that just ride the system. That's not, that's not true at all because obviously Jesus was very clear on that as well. Right. But he's making a point stain that, look guys, the systems of this world are fundamentally human, which guess what? Newsflash, fundamentally human means fundamentally flawed because humans are imperfect.
Speaker 5 42:30 We are, I mean we all know that. So what's ended up happening is people are like, well, this is the best we've gotten. It's getting so bad that we're just gonna go with second best. I think, I mean, I've actually heard people say that it's like, well, you know, Jesus then coming back, so let's, let's vote Republican or let's vote Democrat or whatever. The issue with that is you're now trying to, you're basically saying, well, I'll take a little bit of evil because they say a few things that I agree with and that is so completely counter to scripture that it's, it absolutely blows my mind that people can just be okay with, okay, you can look at either any political party in any nation ever and find things that they did that they stood for that were very anti-God, very evil and very wrong.
Speaker 5 43:23 And you can also at the same time in history find a church group that supported them. And then you look back and now in retrospect, we look at those people and you're like, what were you thinking? Like, wow, you idiots, you know, you supported whatever, you know, Roman governor or you supported Hitler. I mean they, you know, and in retrospect it's very obvious and I think our kids will look back at, at our generation and be like, seriously guys, you know, what were you thinking? It's right there and scripture, human systems aren't going to fix this world. Um, they have their place, but we as Christians know that's just not gonna work. Um, Dean Taylor has a really interesting concept on this. In one of his presentations, he says something to the effect that anytime we get involved in politics, we are basically saying our God is too small and we're willing to accept the second best. Uh, instead of saying that, you know, God actually has this under control, um, and his kingdom is the most important. Why would we ever stoop so low as something like politics and worldly power when we have the god of the universe? That's, that's, that's on our side. Um, it, we, we, we dream way too small.
Speaker 4 44:45 Yeah. So go ahead and ask her, did you just as he, as he was talking, I was thinking like, I wonder how much of this is tied into our view of our understanding of salvation. Like what happening when we become saved because we, it seems like, and you guys can tell me if I'm wrong on this, but it seems like even in Anabaptist circles, the majority view of salvation is kind of this, this thing, well, this legal transactions and now I'm, I'm on the, I'm on the path that says I'm in, I'm no longer on the out or like I've been my, my, my, since that's the religious phrase, but you know what I've done wrong so that I can't be in, is cleared away and now I'm in. And then, um, and then the like the Kingdom of God aspects of it is almost metaphorical or like figure of speech.
Speaker 4 45:43 Whereas we're saying, Jesus, Jesus is actually raising up a different kingdom, a different nation here on earth. He is restoring all of creation and how I, this isn't something we've talked about at all, but I would personally be coming to the perspective that I think scripture actually teaches that God wants to restore all of creation. Like it's not the, the words in scripture is not just about humans being saved so that they can go to heaven. It's about bringing all of creation back to his design so that it glorifies him. And so there's a kind of lost where I was going with that, but I wonder how, how much that plays into how quickly we give up on truly dedicating our actual physical lives here in America on dirt and soil, which is dirt. Um, I've had a lot of late nights and so my mind is kind of railing, um, and I love how you correct yourself there, which is soil. Um, yeah. Like, so that actually affects how we live out, not just like a theoretical intellectual ascent. Yeah, I agree with God. But here on earth we actually have to think a different way.
Speaker 5 47:04 It's, I, I've literally heard people say this, it's like, well, we just have to, yeah, no, yeah, God's got to come and do his thing. But in the meanwhile like we're going to have to stand up for our own selves and fix it ourselves. And I'm like, wow, where is your faith people? You know? And that's, that's really kind of sad actually. It's, it's funny, but it's actually kind of sad that we would stoop that low. Yeah. I like to
Speaker 3 47:30 kind of put this into like the, the storyline of the Bible. That's one thing that the Bible project and NT Wright have really helped me to do is see the entire storyline in the Bible and trace a theme or motif throughout it. So like what you were saying, Asher, with the theme of the kingdom that starts right in the garden of Eden where Adam and eve were created to rule and reign to have dominion. And you see when they sin that, that, that rule and reign of God through his images was broken. And so God was trying to bring his rule and reign back to earth because it was forced out through sin. And even see when Israel was wanted to have a king, like the nations around them, how that was actually rejecting the, the rule and reign of God. And that created all kinds of problems throughout the history of Israel.
Speaker 3 48:20 And then when, when John, the Anabaptists and Jesus Watch walked onto the scene, um, the, the first thing they talked about was the Kingdom of God. You know, they announced that the, the rule and reign of God that has been forced out of creation is coming back. And some I pray about all the time, you know, God, would you wrap the, your rule and reign around this planet again, you know, that it's been forced out of the earth, the presence of God, the rule and reign of God. The Kingdom of God has been forced out of the earth because of sin. But Jesus is bringing that kingdom back. And I think that ties into why maybe our culture is so fascinated with politics. Cause our, our culture is really interested in who's running the show, you know, and how this world is supposed to be ruled. And I would say that's actually the image of God within them crying out for justice and for the, the correct, uh, rule and reign to be over the planet.
Speaker 3 49:22 You know, and that's where we can step in and say, Hey, look, this, this desire in you to see justice, this desire in you to, to see the correct person rule is actually a good desire. Jesus talked about it more than any other topic 2000 years ago. And here's how he said this, this nation should look, and it, it's a rival nation to the, the current nations. It's arrival nation to American, every other nation that operates with any ethic other than the sermon on the mount. And so if you look at it through the kind of, throughout the whole storyline of scripture, I think it really helps, um, kind of fill out some of these concepts.
Speaker 2 50:03 Yeah, that Kinda comes back to what you were just touching on there, Titus about it. It's a, it's actually a rival nation, which is, which is why when Jesus came on earth, he actually used very politically loaded terms for himself. You know, he, um, I mean, he was the messiah. He referred to himself as the king as,
Speaker 3 50:25 um, I'm blanking on some of the other terms
Speaker 2 50:28 that he used, but like, I mean he even talked about bringing, bringing a sword, you know, which, which doesn't completely jive with what we're saying here, but you know, in that sense he was talking metaphorically that he's bringing, bringing a sword, um, and in the earthly kings, you know, definitely were threatened by Jesus. Um, and I've, you know, obviously he wasn't, he's not bringing it with a literal sword. He's not coming with a literal army to destroy the nations around it around, but he's coming. Um, but he's, he's definitely coming as a king nonetheless. And as a ruler, um, you know, in, in all earth has been put under his feet.
Speaker 5 51:18 Oh yeah. It's so Jesus, go, go ahead, finish.
Speaker 2 51:21 Well, I was just going to say, Jesus himself set himself up as, as like a political figure in, in reality. Um, but, but then it's that the, the nuance comes in is like that we're, you know, we believe we're talking about is that he doesn't do that through, he set himself up as a political figure yet, but, but he doesn't bring it through the earthly systems that we have have in place and through, through violence and militarism.
Speaker 5 51:51 Jesus's way is completely other, I think is the best way to say it. Um, yes, he does look like a political figure. He's called a king. I mean saying that in first century Rome is a really bad idea and it actually, I mean it makes perfect sense that they would crucify him cause that's not a good idea. You might start a rebellion or whatever they thought differences. He's also called the prince of peace. And I don't know of any earthly ruler, president, King, whatever monarch that has ever been able to rule a country and do it entirely peacefully. Like without having to kill anybody or you know, do some something that wasn't peaceful. That's just part of the job. And Jesus says that that's his title. He's the prince of peace. And really forget that, you know, a lot of my Republican friends are gonna look at Jesus in revelation, you know, with the sword and all this stuff, and they just forget the whole thing about, wait a minute, he's the prince of peace. Um, yeah. I, I don't know how all that works in the day to day, but that's really, really something to think about.
Speaker 2 52:56 Yeah. Has his sword is coming out of his mouth, which is a pretty strong picture of what that is. His word.
Speaker 5 53:05 Yeah. Or it's a really like weird warrior sword holds his sword in his mouth. It's interesting when he rides onto the scene, he's, he's bloody before battle, you know? And so I would say that blood is not the blood of his enemies.
Speaker 2 53:26 That's his own blood. And of course there is a final judgment. I don't think we're minimizing that, but a lot of those texts in revelation can be interpreted in a, in a different way.
Speaker 4 53:37 Even, I mean, he's called in that, sorry, is called the lamb. The lamb of God, the lamb that was slain. And then in revelations also talks about dipping their blood in the, uh, the lamb, the blood of the lamb. And so obviously this lamb is being slain and that's again, words that are used for Jesus. It's not, he's not coming in, conquering the picture isn't if we're interpreting revelations accurately, which I'm not going to claim I am, but people who I trust, uh, who seem to have a little better handle on revelation than I do would say that the, the conquering is being crucified. Yeah. He's being, he's laid on the alter and that's how he's cocky.
Speaker 2 54:27 And that like, just, just as you guys were talking, um, like, like that x that excites me so much for Jesus. It gave me like, I actually got chills as you were talking. I know this maybe sounds kind of metaphysical, but no, it really is like when Jesus comes, he doesn't come. You know, that picture of Jesus riding in, in revelations with a sword coming out of his mouth and blood on <inaudible> already on him. That's, that's his own blood. That's him laying down his life for his enemies, um, for, um,
Speaker 4 55:03 okay.
Speaker 2 55:03 And, and yeah, like you said, he, he,
Speaker 4 55:05 he conquered buddy through his crucifixion that'd been crucified. I forget who was talking, but somebody mentioned something maybe it was Eucharist for but about, um, oh, the soar like Jesus came to be a sword, um, to be a divider and can we touch on, so I've had some interaction. I, I forget who it was. So I apologize if you're listening. I'm online about the concept or the terminology of, cause I use nonviolence a lot and somebody thought I was, I of, I intentionally avoid nonresistant because I think that goes down attract that that is not what, but this person who I think is maybe fairly new to Anabaptist theology, um, and or Anabaptist culture maybe, and uh, and wondering if that was an incomplete, they thought, um, nonresistant was more complete to what Anabaptist stood for top four. And what they were pointing at was the concept that, so it was a lady that I was dialoguing with that she's not prone to go out and kill somebody or defend herself violently, but she might
Speaker 5 56:24 inwardly resist and be standing at odds in that. And so to her it's, it's like she thinks about, I've, I am not at all quoting her, I'm just trying to remember the conversation. Um, but non-resistance speaks to that part as well. Can we talk about terminology a little bit and like how even even so in that, I think that's a great concept. Like that's a lesson, a learning, I don't know what it is. Like in a way that's rebellion maybe rising up, but there's also a level of resistance that we do do as Christians. And so where does that come into play and how do we parse that out? Yeah. The term non-resistance needs to, I understand where it came from and it's important part of our history, but it needs to die because non-resistance isn't entirely to go away. Yeah. But if you really didn't you just do an episode where someone corrected Yolanda?
Speaker 5 57:28 Yep. I was just listening <inaudible> was that I've done so many, I think Steven Russell, he was saying that he's not nonviolent, that he's nonresistant and you agreed with him. So yes, yes I did. Because nonviolence I think is even a worse term if I just am being totally open and blunt here. So, but on a fan, but I'm open to other terms. I just, I hadn't really, okay, so, so here's the issue. So when you look at the teachings of Jesus, Matthew five six, seven sermon on the mount primarily, but other things too, nonresistance is an entire package and we have taken that phrase and said, oh I'm non resistant, therefore someone breaks into my home and I will sit in the corner and pray and, or you know, I won't, I won't go to war and, and it's all about I won't, I won't, I won't do this.
Speaker 5 58:18 It's all about what you won't do. That is entirely not what Jesus is talking about. Obviously that's there too. He's saying don't kill clearly, but he's also saying a lot of other things don't hate. Well that goes, that's well outside the realm of nonviolence. So like we can be very nonviolent but we can still hate people. And, and so when we say nonviolence, we're missing part of the package. When we say non-resistance we're missing a whole bunch. Cause then we're just saying, well we just won't resist anything, you know, and I'll just be all passive and quiet and submissive. And Jesus is, if you will look at a profile of Jesus, the last words you could use to describe him is passive. Sit in a corner. Just Kinda let it happen. That is not the Jesus we see in scripture. So what I advocate for, and I haven't found a very good term to replace it, but something along the lines of radical love because what non-resistance that package is a preemptive thing.
Speaker 5 59:16 It's a action. It's saying I won't resist violently, but I absolutely will resist in a way that lines with what Jesus says. So that means like say prayer is huge. It's a big part of the package. Um, what I'm involved with in the Middle East as a perfect example, it's called, what I would say is it's almost more of an ideal resistance. So you have cases of terrorism over there, and instead of going and shooting those guys, that's the one option or the other options, just sit at home and and say, oh, that's too bad. We'd go there and what I call in front of the guns or before the gun starts shooting and fix it, and B, be a solution. That's what Jesus is advocating an actual true, radical love for your enemies. And it's not a passive thing. It's a very aggressive, I almost where you're right there, you're right in the thick of things.
Speaker 5 00:14 And in my mind, the concept of nonresistance and what Jesus laid out is an even greater motivator to go to the hardest places in the world than say military. The military, his motives are very lame, honestly, compared to the call of Jesus. Jesus calls should be so much more powerful to go to a place like wherever, you know, think of any horrible place in the world and actually be the solution instead of this saying, oh, well we won't fight, so we'll just stay at home and do nothing. Did that make any sense at all? I'm still trying to untangle that whole mess in my mind, but I really would love to see us use, no, I can't think of a better term.
Speaker 4 00:55 Yeah, I agree. I like radical love better. I, I think nonviolence can have evolved out of a largely Protestant worldview that would have been politically involved. And so they're, they're thinking in terms of political involvement. We're not going to do it violently. I don't know. That's totally guessing on my part. And because I didn't like nonresistance it was kind of easy to it. They have that. But I like, because even living here in the city, I don't get in politics just because I'm passive. What did I just say? I don't get involved in politics just because I'm <inaudible>. Um, yeah, but rather because like I, and I don't know, a lot of people could maybe look as if they're doing this or not be involved in politics and it's not as intentional. But when you think about how long it's going to take to influence local city council and local laws so that we could actually help our neighbors here in this very apartment complex who have low incomes or who can't get, um, certain, uh, whether it's medical, actually we're in la, so medical and all that, it's pretty free.
Speaker 4 02:08 But, um, like the, the help, uh, legal, if they're illegal immigrants, we've got a lot of illegal immigrants to help them do it illegally, um, to, uh, abortion. We have women in our street, people I know and relate with on a weekly basis for sure, if not a daily basis who are, who would be at risk for abortions because they're single mothers. They don't make enough money there. And, and often we think in terms of these issues as being big political issues. So it's just, Oh, it's horrible to kill babies, but the reason they're killing babies is because there is no better. They can't take care of them. It's going to be a hell on earth if they're, if they let him be born. And so as a, as a nonviolent or radical loving person to try to follow Jesus, I'm not, I'm not just not voting because I don't, I'm not, I don't get involved in politics.
Speaker 4 03:07 I'm not voting because I don't have the time to figure out who is actually going to follow through and who actually has a character that matters. And plus it's going to take like three or four years till that trickles down through the bureaucracy and the political involvement and actually effect change for my neighbor. And by that time I may actually be out of their lives. What if I just walk across the hall and start getting involved in their life and I'm spending my time instead of researching who's the best politician, I'm actually influenced helping them find how to do things legally. How to become a legal citizen walking through the mess that's a horrible, or it's a, the, the way the process for a Mexican person to become a legal resident of America is horribly flawed. And I don't know that anybody denies that, but it's just a mess. It's so much easier to criticize and talk about how we should be doing immigration then to actually get involved and try to help them raise the funds and then spend the money and then a lawyer doesn't show up and you don't get a refund on that money. Like it's just, I could go on and on, but it's, that's perfect. Think
Speaker 5 04:10 that snow at is so what Jesus is getting at the way that Jesus prescribes is way harder than just going and casting a vote and being like, I'm done. And it actually requires you to get your hands dirty. And that's when Jesus showed us to do, he's like, he didn't go and start marching on Rome and trying to change what Caesar Caesar Augustus was up to. No, he's like, I'm going to actually go to the poverty stricken areas and actually be the change at which is a quote we hear all the time. But that's actually what Jesus is laying out for us to do. The problem is it's way harder to do and requires you to get your hands dirty. It's messy and nobody, honestly, we're lazy. People don't want to do it that way. And when I see someone who's really, truly living out the, you know, here we go again, the nonresistant quote or the radical love lifestyle.
Speaker 5 05:02 I have way more respect for that person than the, than the conspiracy theorists, you know, right wing Republican who's trying to vote the bad guys out of office or you know, or the other way, the less left side, that's actual Christianity. And, and if it, if the entire church would actually grasp that and do that, the change that would sweep through our, our social structure. And I mean you talk about reform at every level, it would be incredible, but nobody wants to, because Jesus has way is not easy. And he never said it was. Yeah.
Speaker 6 05:34 <inaudible>
Speaker 5 05:37 and it requires a <inaudible>
Speaker 2 05:38 yeah. Good.
Speaker 6 05:40 Okay.
Speaker 5 05:40 Ahead of time counting the costs, which is something you told us to do.
Speaker 3 05:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good stuff.
Speaker 6 05:51 Yeah.
Speaker 2 05:52 In that kind of, kind of with the whole nonresistant thing, um, just addressed the term. Um, pacifism is kind of even even less ideal. Um, because I mean, it has right in the word it's association with being passive and that's not at all what we're
Speaker 3 06:09 where about. Is that actually the root of the word passive? I mean, whereas Google, I'm googling it right now.
Speaker 5 06:19 Um, but, but it is important to note that the ideology behind passivism versus what Jesus spelled out is fundamentally different. And I'm not saying pacifists are all wrong and it's terrible and don't be, well, I'm not necessarily saying that, but Jesus, what Jesus lined up is, is, is much more in depth. His is actually a complete ethic, um, of how, of how we actually walked data.
Speaker 3 06:42 So <inaudible> go ahead. Pull it up here. And it's not, it's not passive. It's, it's the Latin word, packs or POCs, which I think they would talk about the POCs or Amanda, you know, the piece you wrote. Yeah. Piece it more has to do with peace then being passive. Cause I've heard people talk about the word and in that sense too, and I some reason it didn't sound right, but yeah,
Speaker 2 07:05 no that, that's, that's a good observation. I th I think it, for some reason it still has maybe just cause it sounds like passive, but, um, it still just has this connotation with, with being, being <inaudible>
Speaker 5 07:18 there. There's a perfect example that I'll give. Um, so in Iraq, um, 25 miles away from, from where we live and where I, where I've worked quite a number of times, there's Mozel is right out there. We could, um, you could, you could hear the gunfire, we could see the smoke from, from the war where they were trying to dislodge isis. Now there's a documentary about a team of EMT mts that volunteered to go in there because there wasn't enough medical supplies. So like, literally they're risking their lives every day. Sniper fire. It's bad. Um, they lose a lot of guys. And the journalists, it's, it's, the IRD is hilarious, but it's sad. It's tragic. A pacifist journalists comes up to these guys and he's just there. He's not helping, he's not doing anything. He's a pacifist. And he's like, Hey, what's, you know, what's wrong with you guys?
Speaker 5 08:02 Your, your, any or you just kind of give him a hash about your, you're working with the military. You're, you know, you're doing all this stuff. You should like, this whole thing's evil. And, and what are you doing? You know, you're wearing body armor. It was, it was so sad because these guys were actually saving lives. Like they saved hundreds and hundreds of lives, civilian lives. And here are this, this past is coming in and giving them hash. And I, and I thought about that neither side were were Christian by any means at all. But I looked at that and I, I thought, you know, those IOM mts that were right there dodging the bullet, saving lives where we're the ones who are actually being Jesus to those people. I know they weren't Christians, but they were actually, they were actually living out the principles of what Jesus said. And this past fist, he's just like, oh well all war is terrible and we shouldn't even be here. What, what to kind of testimony is that. But it's really sad because a lot of the Christians they interact with would sound way more like that journalist than those emps who are actually out there saving lives. And that, and that's really tragic. Hmm.
Speaker 3 09:07 Yeah. I think that the, the question is more, um, what, rather than talking about terms, cause we all have associations in our minds with certain terms that may or may not be accurate, but like what, what actual ideas are true and what ideas are false. And I like what you're saying there, Reagan, because you're saying that, you know, the, the idea that we should do nothing is wrong. We need to be out there actively loving people and putting ourselves at risk. Um, but I, you, you also mentioned something about, um, sort of criticizing this pacifist for,
Speaker 5 09:43 okay.
Speaker 3 09:43 Critiquing their warfare. And I wonder if in your mind, uh, do you not see the violence that they were enacting as sinful? Um, and that would kind of bring us to the whole question of how we view the government. Um, but, but do you see that, do you see that violence as, as a sin or do you simply see it as maybe a good thing, but Christians just should not be involved in it? Well,
Speaker 5 10:12 okay, so not resistance applies to believers first off. And we can get really deep in the weeds here of what the government's role is in things. And I don't think we should even try to tackle that one, but I do see violence is wrong. Um, it killing somebody is just wrong. I mean, the 10 commandments, you shouldn't murder the, the issue was these guys weren't shooting anybody. They weren't involved in killing anybody. They were involved in saving lives and, and that's, yeah, you can walk up to a situation like that and, and criticized that, oh, this whole system is flawed. This war shouldn't even be happening at all. But don't do that and get in the way of the guys who are actually saving people. Um, and yeah, like, and again, they weren't Christians like they did use self defense sometimes. I, I, you know, whatever, um, that's a whole, you know, that's a whole nother thing. But I, I would say violence or like killing people is, I do believe that that's wrong. I'm always, um, and that's, and that's why Christians aren't supposed to be involved in that. I don't know if I answered your question very well there.
Speaker 3 11:26 Yeah, that's good. Reagan and kind of using that to pivot the conversation, cause you know, you mentioned two things. You, you, you said that you believe that killing is always wrong. However, you also said that non-resistance is for believers and I don't know if you meant for believers alone. Um, but, but that kind of is getting me thinking, and this is for all of you guys. How do you guys view the government, you know, do you, do you believe that the government is legitimate in its use of violence or do you believe that as followers of Jesus, we prophetically call even the government to lay down their arms and follow Jesus?
Speaker 4 12:07 Yeah, that's something I've often thought about too. Um, especially after our dialogue on Facebook about Christian anarchism. Is that what it was called? Yeah, but because I, yeah, so I would have grown up hearing the concept a lot that, you know, we as Christians are not to be involved in politics. We're not to to be involved in the military, but the government is different. It's, it's supposed to govern. I can't even remember all the different arguments that all that always didn't quite make sense to me. I didn't always quite understand it.
Speaker 4 12:51 But I w like I've, after our talk about Christian anarchism, I've been thinking about this a little bit and there is like, there is a structure, like as you follow the narrative of scripture, the story of scripture, God sets up this kingdom and then there's rebellion in the kingdom. But there is, you know, even the whole thing of Jesus or, um, Israel getting a keen, there are prophecies of a keen coming before it, before Israel ever had a king. So there is this picture that somehow, even though in the immediate text of first Samuel, it looks like it was not God's designed for Israel to have a king. Um, there were pre-written writings that talked about Jesus being king. And so there's this concept of
Speaker 4 13:41 government structure, political nation that God seems to have had in his design and how that, so all that to say that I think there is, um, I'm just kinda rambling out loud because as I, as I'm talking, I'm coming to a different conclusion than what I start out with. Um, it's fantastic. The, what I was gonna say was that I think there's a place for, for a secular government, like there's this fallen government, but that what I just got done saying would actually give credence to the fact that all good, even government should, should be called to. I definitely agree. I think that everyone should be called to Christ. Like you don't just give political leaders at pass because you're political leader, you gotta do what you gotta do. I, I think the biggest question I had with the Christian anarchism though was that it felt borderline expecting unbelievers to do things that with, without a framework and the faith built upon Christ. There's no legit, there's no legitimate reason for doing it. Does that make sense? Like we can say, yeah, I'm done. Right.
Speaker 3 14:57 Well,
Speaker 4 14:57 okay, can I jump in here? Because when you say anarchism all my republican plays go up. Like yes and no. You had republican mine when he first used Yeltsin have Democrat flakes, but I'm just thinking for our audience who, like they your Ana Chrism and they hear, they hear like
Speaker 3 15:17 chaos and
Speaker 4 15:18 rebellion. Exactly what I thought when he first brought it on. Um,
Speaker 3 15:24 I think that, well it is kind of a fun term to use because if you get that reaction, but at its most basic tr as most basic sense, it, I think the Christian anarchism would be basically abolishing human archaism. You know, anarchism is basically we're against hierarchy, which is hierarchy, you know? Um, so we, we don't believe that humans should rule each other. Uh, rather, we believe that God is the only king, you know, no king but Christ. So it's the idea that only God has the right to rule over human beings. And these organizations that humans have established to under the threat of violence, coerce morality are fundamentally flawed because morality can only happen voluntarily. Um, and that's how the Kingdom of God works is through voluntary morality. So any organization that, uh, coerces morality through the threat of violence is fundamentally flawed. And, and yeah, we, a nonbeliever cannot fulfill the teachings of Jesus without repentance and, and God's spirit.
Speaker 3 16:33 Uh, but I think we can call out sin anywhere we see it. And, and if, if violence is sin w uh, it just kinda takes the teeth out of a critique of violence to say that the government is doing a good thing. You know, it, it seems like it's an ethical contradiction to say that there's, there's an organization that is doing what God wants it to do. And yet a Christian should not be part of it. Like, why, if it's a good organization doing good things, then why should a Christian not be part of it? And of course that brings us to Romans 13 and, and we can go there. Um, but unless you guys have more thoughts on what did you said?
Speaker 8 17:13 Yeah.
Speaker 5 17:14 Yeah. Romans 13 is a pretty, pretty key thing. I think we should hit at some point, might be a little bit too much for this episode. Sure.
Speaker 8 17:21 Um, but
Speaker 5 17:24 it does seem pretty clear that God uses governments and he sets them up. I mean, it, it's pretty strong in, in when he's talking about Babylon and a Syria, you know, in the prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah. I mean, I don't, there's, I don't see a way around that that now nobody is going to argue that Babylon in his area were good guys and it was like the worst of the worst, you know, but it does seem pretty clear that God uses those things. Um, I think it's, it's probably, obviously it's not God's ideal at Jesus' ethic as what God wants, um, clearly, but at the same time, yeah.
Speaker 8 17:59 Um,
Speaker 5 18:00 it does seem there is a place for that. And as a result, you know, these secular institutions, they're going to use violence and they're going to punish evil doers. And all of that that we see in Romans 13. It gets super complicated. I'm not really sure how to untangle it.
Speaker 8 18:13 Um,
Speaker 5 18:14 but I, I wouldn't agree with the, obviously the, the Christian and Arcas movement and I think <inaudible> I think it's missing some pretty key passages in scripture.
Speaker 8 18:23 Um,
Speaker 3 18:25 fine. Yeah. I don't know how, I don't know what a classic Christian anarchists would view Romans 13 especially. Um, but I talking about, you know, a Syrian Babylon, I, I did, I do have some verses here from Isaiah 10 verse five says, woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger in whose hand is the club of my wrath. So God is calling his series of the rod of his anger. And then in verse 12 though it says, when the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart in the hottie. Look in his eyes. So God is using a Syria as his rod to punish Zion, to punish Jerusalem. But then after he's done using a Syria, he turns around and punish is a Syria. And so the way I look at it, you cannot punish someone for a good thing that they've done.
Speaker 3 19:19 That's, that's not just so what is Syria was doing was sinful, and that's why God punished to Syria. But God sovereignly uses even the sinfulness of mankind to accomplish his purposes. So a classic example that would be Jesus dying on the cross. You know, God, the Bible says that if Satan and the evil forces would have known, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of Glory, right? If they would've known that he was going to resurrect. So God sovereignly used the wicked plans of Satan to crucify Jesus for his purposes. He did in the Old Testament with these pagan nations punishing Israel. And I, that's kind of the lens to which I view Romans 13 is yes, God is raising up the United States of America in a sense. Um, and, and, and the way I see him doing that is sovereignly using their rebellion for his purposes. Sometimes, not always. You know, and I, I don't think that a lot of what America does is even God sovereignly using them. Some of it's just straight out bad, but the times when it's actually redeemable are the times when God is sovereignly using it for his purposes to punish evil.
Speaker 2 20:27 Hmm. Well, segue this insert segue. Oh No. Yeah, this is, this is all really good stuff. Um, it's probably, I mean it's, it's a lot. We were covering a lot kind of getting an airplane view of the Third Way. Um, I would love to talk more about Romans 13 and, um, Christian approach to government and just politics and culture and all that stuff. Kind of continuing on with some of this, but maybe more specifically diving into the, the whole Romans 13 and in Christian anarchism and whatnot. Um, if we want to just pick up this conversation in the next episode, um, I think that's what we're going to do. Um, do you guys have any final thoughts that you wanna you wanna throw in here for this lab? I mean for this first episode, not, not the last episode. For sure not. Yeah, I mean I'd love to hear, um, any audience, if they have thoughts in response back, I would love to hear their thoughts.
Speaker 2 21:30 Yeah. If you guys have any questions or any thoughts, if you have any, any challenges or corrections that you guys want to make for us here on the podcast, feel free to contact us on Twitter. It's at third way podcast or on Instagram at third way podcast or if you want to email us and, and, um, any questions or any thoughts or, um, a topic that you would like to see us address, uh, feel free to shoot us an
[email protected]. I also want to give a special thanks to the brilliance for allowing us to use their song brother as the theme song here on the podcast. This has been the inaugural episode of the Third Way podcast. Thank you guys so much for hanging out with us and for listening to our conversations. We have enjoyed it and we'll see you next episode.
Speaker 9 22:22 <inaudible> when
Speaker 1 23:16 looking to the phase my enemy, I see my bro. I see my.
