[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sexual sin is a major problem even within the christian church, and a lot of the resources that we have available to us tend to focus on stopping the bad sexual behavior, behavior modification, kind of white knuckling it through, and it leaves us frustrated. My name is Asher Whitmer, and a few years ago I wrote live free because I thought our people needed a tool to help them do more than just try harder, put in roadblocks. This book unpacks the underlying issues that get us involved in sexual sin and how we can find not freedom, not just freedom from the problem, but what it looks like to actually live free in all areas of life. I've sold a couple thousand copies of the book and the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. People have found genuine freedom, but one of the things I've heard a lot of is a desire for a resource that could accompany this, that you could take small groups through. So I invited a couple guys to come to this lodge in beautiful Colorado, and we recorded a video series that helped small groups go through the process of finding true lasting freedom. Not just behavioral modification, but we worked through the underlying issues that cause us to get into sexual sin. And what are the pieces necessary to develop a whole and healthy life that we can live free from sexual sin going on into the future. In addition, we created a bunch of resources to help facilitators and teachers lead people through this process. If you have a heart for helping people overcome sexual addiction of any kind at any level, but you're not exactly sure how to do that or what steps you need to take, this whole course has the resources, the tools that you need to facilitate that and guide them through the process. So we have video lessons that you watch and you work through and then discussion that you see and watch happen with a workbook, and specific questions to help you reflect on your stories, and then discussion questions to help create real relationship and community. And we have even instructional videos for those of you leading this course so that you know how to generate the conversation that actually gets to the root of the problem. You don't have to be a pastor, you don't have to be a theologian, a teacher. All you need is a heart to help people find lasting freedom, and this course will walk you through that process. We believe at the end of this you'll not just be a group of guys who are batting round ideas about a common issue you're dealing with, but you'll actually be genuine friends. You'll know each other's stories in a way that maybe nobody else knows, and you'll have a community that you can begin walking through all of life. You can buy it
[email protected]. We know that sexual sin is a big issue and that sometimes it can feel overwhelming to know how to walk people through it. And our desire is that this course can do just that for you, so that in your community you can begin seeing transformed lives of people who are living free. We also have bonus content available. You'll hear the life stories of the different guys involved in the course. We have articles that expound on some of the topics addressed in the course, and we have faqs and so much more that will help you get to the bottom of the issue.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: Hello friends. If you have been blessed by the work of unfamed Christianity, whether through the blog or the podcast, and you would like to support the work or you'd like to go deeper, then I invite you to consider becoming a member of unfamed Christianity on Patreon. What the membership gives you access to is monthly Q A episodes. It gives you access to deep dive essays, where we take a particular issue and open it up even further and dive in with some of the nuance and complexities it gives you access to. Guided studies this first quarter of 2024, we'll be doing a guided study at what it looks like to become a healthy disciple of Christ, how to overcome habitual sin, how to interact with scripture in our spiritual formation journeys, how to deal with baggage from our past, and what it looks like to value and pursue emotional and mental well being. All of that is made available through the unfamed Christianity membership. There are five different tiers of membership, and if you're interested and would like to learn more, just click the link in our description or go to asherwhitmer.com member and you'll see the different tiers and everything you get with each one. Thank you for listening, and thank you for being a part of this workload.
[00:05:01] Speaker C: You.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: Hello friends. I'm jumping in here in the middle. I know we're in the middle of working through the finding my place in God's story module one, but I wanted to take some time and just respond to some feedback and questions that I've gotten in response to an article that I published recently. It was actually an excerpt of a deep dive essay that I've done on navigating pronouns, Christianity, and transgender identity. Navigating the pronoun conversation.
I yanked an excerpt out of that specifically talking about the posture of pronoun hospitality, and I shared that on the blog for public consumption and have gotten some feedback in that I thought, well, maybe I'll take some time to just do a video podcast here responding to those questions specifically. I have responded to them individually on the comment threads or via email.
But there's a couple of things that were brought up.
I guess there's maybe two main things I would like to clarify.
First of all, I'll just dive into one of the biggest questions that I got, or statement.
It wasn't really posed as a question, but a statement, and then maybe respond to some of the questions that were a little more no question is small, but maybe it wasn't quite as weighty as the initial statement. So I had one individual respond to me saying that they were disappointed that I did not start with the prerogatives and claims and the glory of the creator God as it relates to the issue of sexuality, God having made man male and female for his own purposes and glory.
And he goes on to say, we can't equivocate all we want on the vagaries of language and its gradual changes, but that doesn't touch the matter of whether or not we acknowledge the fundamental.
[00:07:29] Speaker C: Matter of the created dichotomy of the.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Sexes that activists are seeking to blur.
[00:07:35] Speaker C: And sadly, that many christians are also helping to blur.
Just as a starting place, I assumed.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: That people following my blog have read.
[00:07:49] Speaker C: Most or all of my work on sexuality and gender.
[00:07:55] Speaker B: So this article does not start with the basic fundamentals of mankind. This article is specifically interacting with the.
[00:08:03] Speaker C: Question is it sinful?
[00:08:05] Speaker B: As Rosario Butterfield has claimed to use transgender pronouns.
[00:08:10] Speaker C: She calls them transgender pronouns other than don't.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: I'm not aware of anybody who identifies as transgender calling them transgender pronouns.
[00:08:19] Speaker C: They're preferred pronouns, like, how do you prefer to be called?
[00:08:25] Speaker B: Is that sinful? She claims it'sinful.
[00:08:28] Speaker C: She has made some, quite frankly, dishonest.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: Statements about people like Mark your house.
[00:08:35] Speaker C: Preston Sprinkle, the work at center for.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Faith, Sexuality, and gender on what they.
[00:08:41] Speaker C: Believe and who holds to a very.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: Similar view as she does on marriage.
[00:08:47] Speaker C: And.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: The fact that there are two genders, male and female.
[00:08:55] Speaker C: But they also hold a posture of pronoun hospitality for a variety of reasons.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: And I walk through those reasons in.
[00:09:04] Speaker C: The article, so I did not.
[00:09:07] Speaker B: First of all, the article that I shared is an excerpt of a larger deep dive essay that is available to members. So I think I shared 2300 words, and the whole essay is close to.
[00:09:19] Speaker C: 6000 words, if I remember correctly.
But then secondly, even that essay is.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: Not a complete that is specifically interacting with this question of what to do with pronouns.
[00:09:31] Speaker C: So I assumed, as I'm pretty sure.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: My members are well aware of, that my starting place is absolutely God has made man male and female for his.
[00:09:44] Speaker C: Own purposes and glory for his glory for his own purposes. Maybe adds a weird phraseology that could be taken a variety of different ways and isn't necessarily, at least in Genesis.
But yeah, God has made man male and female, and man, like all of.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: Creation, is for his glory. It is good.
[00:10:10] Speaker C: It is good that man is man, that women are women, that female is female.
[00:10:18] Speaker B: So this isn't a question we're interacting with what to do with someone when.
[00:10:24] Speaker C: They ask to go by a preferred pronoun. We're not asking are there more than one gender? We're not asking like, is there more.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: To the makeup of mankind than just a basic male and female biological makeup? And this leads to another comment or the second thing I would like to clarify is this is not at all.
[00:10:52] Speaker C: Discussing does he him refer to man to biological men? Does she her refer to biological females?
100% yes.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:09] Speaker C: Like, he him is a reference to biological men. Right?
She her is a reference.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: I have to be very thoughtful in.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: Getting my pronouns correct.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: We're not saying that, oh, you can.
[00:11:30] Speaker C: Use she to refer to it can.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Actually mean biological man.
[00:11:36] Speaker C: No, the question is, when we're engaging.
[00:11:42] Speaker B: People who are specifically choosing to identify.
[00:11:47] Speaker C: As something that is different than their biological makeup, is that sin?
And I'm just going to point to the article for a further explanation.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: I do give a much fuller explanation because I think I mentioned at the.
[00:12:06] Speaker C: Very end of the is it sinful to use transgender pronouns?
[00:12:10] Speaker B: At the end of that article, I mentioned that there are a few situations.
[00:12:14] Speaker C: Where I would not recommend using pronoun hospitality, and I share more in depth that in the deep dive essay.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: It's a fairly raw conversation, a complex conversation, so that is available for members.
In all honesty, if you want to read the article, you can sign up.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: For a seven day free trial, but that is a part of the membership program.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: There are some situations where I would not recommend using.
[00:12:47] Speaker C: It is specifically with people dealing with.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Rapid onset gender dysphoria, and this is most common among youth.
[00:12:56] Speaker C: So youth not using it, where they.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: Themselves are sorting through so many. In our youth, there's so many emotions and feelings and baggage, even familial baggage, that you don't even realize you're living from until you become an adult and get out in the world around a little bit.
And there's two responses that we can have towards familial baggage.
[00:13:25] Speaker C: Sometimes we just blindly live in it.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: And we kind of carry that into our adulthood. Other times we have this sharp reaction.
[00:13:31] Speaker C: To it and we don't realize how maybe actually it wasn't as bad as.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: We thought originally until we get out and bump around in the world a.
[00:13:40] Speaker C: Little bit with other people and other experiences.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: So I don't recommend encouraging young people to encouraging them in that way by.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: Using their preferred pronouns. The other thing is, I have not had to deal with this as a parent. I'm dealing with this as somebody relating.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: With peers, talking with peers, walking alongside other people. And so I do think the conversation is quite a bit different for parents.
[00:14:13] Speaker C: Than it is for peer to peer.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Relationships, specifically because parents have the role of teaching and training and guiding.
[00:14:22] Speaker C: And I know a number of parents who do not.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: They cannot feel good in their conscience.
[00:14:29] Speaker C: To embrace pronoun hospitality. And quite frankly, I support that.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: These are messy situations. I'm not going to come in here.
[00:14:40] Speaker C: And say, like, oh, you're sinning if you don't honor it. Not at all.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: I'm just saying, wait a second. When you see Rosario Butterfield and that.
[00:14:50] Speaker C: Crowd kind of using this mantra that it's sinful to use pronoun preferred pronouns, say, wait a second, hold on. Like, are we sure we want to.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Go that dogmatic statement?
[00:15:06] Speaker C: And here's something just in a quick.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: Response, I don't know if I've clarified.
[00:15:13] Speaker C: Just to make clear, yes, God has.
[00:15:16] Speaker B: Made mankind male and female for his glory. 100% agree. That is my starting place. I don't really apologize for not making that clear in the article, because the.
[00:15:26] Speaker C: Article was not talking about the makeup of man and gender and sexuality.
[00:15:33] Speaker B: The article was talking about the usage of language and preferred pronouns.
And I've written that and made that.
[00:15:42] Speaker C: Clear in other aspects of my writing.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: And then the second thing that I.
[00:15:47] Speaker C: Want to make clear is we're not redefining what you can.
Oh, now, I don't know. Does he she mean a lady or.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Does it mean a man? No.
[00:15:59] Speaker C: Like, obviously these, these are, these are referring to women, to men. The question is, when somebody is language malleable, something we can use even when.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: We understand it to be a certain way, can you use language in a different way in order to build a bridge and connect with somebody?
So, an example, there's a number of examples that I give in the article. I'm assuming if you're listening to this, still listening to this after ten minutes.
[00:16:33] Speaker C: You'Ve probably read the article and maybe.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Have some similar questions, but I mentioned Paul's usage where he changes what God, what deity is being referred to, whether that's a greek God or whether it's Yahweh.
But another example is when Jesus says, man shall not live by bread alone.
[00:16:54] Speaker C: Right?
[00:16:54] Speaker B: So, Jesus is clearly referring to mankind shall not live by bread alone.
[00:16:59] Speaker C: So men and women.
[00:17:00] Speaker B: But in our english translations, it's not translated. Mankind, it's not translated, people shall live. Shall not live by bread alone, but.
[00:17:09] Speaker C: By the word, every word of God.
[00:17:14] Speaker B: Our english translations translate it, man shall.
[00:17:18] Speaker C: Not live by bread alone. So does that mean it's not true for women? Does that mean the translators were lying if they're translating it just with the male pronoun?
No, we accept that.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: We understand that a pronoun can be.
[00:17:39] Speaker C: Used for a variety of meanings and.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: Subjects, and so to take it rigidly.
[00:17:48] Speaker C: In that way is somewhat foolish.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Understand the context. Understand who's being talked to, what's being talked about. What are we discussing here? And so, in the context of somebody.
[00:18:01] Speaker C: Who is identifying as transgender, is it sinful to meet them where they're at and just honor their choice of pronoun and engage with them?
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Use that as a bridge of engaging.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: With them on deeper matters?
[00:18:19] Speaker B: That's kind of the question we're wrestling with here.
[00:18:23] Speaker C: And so kind of the basic place.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: To.
[00:18:30] Speaker C: Know, I guess. I read Rosario Butterfield or anybody else.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: There's a Jared Moore that has also.
[00:18:38] Speaker C: Done some writing on this, talked about.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: It and their explanations for why it is sinful.
[00:18:45] Speaker C: It's not sufficient to me, again, let's.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Stand with the word of God. Is it sinful for fundamentalist culture warring the agenda on the fundamentalist right? Oh, yeah, it is sinful.
[00:19:01] Speaker C: Right?
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Like, that contrarily conflicts with their purposes and their agenda. But in terms of what scripture lays.
[00:19:09] Speaker C: Out as being sinful, where do we get the idea that this is sinful?
Now, there's maybe two areas where somebody.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Might think that it makes using preferred pronouns sinful. The one area is sexual immorality is.
[00:19:32] Speaker C: Listed as a sin.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: And to that, I would say 100%.
[00:19:36] Speaker C: Sexual immorality is sin.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: The sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God. Ephesians five, revelation also talks about, like, different places scripture mentions sexual immorality will not inherit the kingdom of God.
[00:19:50] Speaker C: Absolutely, 100%.
Another place is, you're not supposed to lie. Right?
[00:19:57] Speaker B: That seems to be kind of the.
[00:19:58] Speaker C: Main hinge point that a lot of people who hold to this position, this.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Dogmatic position, refer to is the fact.
[00:20:10] Speaker C: That it's lying and to that degree.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: Then I guess I would like some clarity on what is lying.
[00:20:16] Speaker C: So, lying, as I've heard many times.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: Defined in the church and different places, is intending to deceive.
I know, like, every person that I have related with that has preferred pronouns, and I honor their preferred pronouns.
[00:20:36] Speaker C: I know that they know I see them as their biological gender.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: There's no deception happening.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: This isn't about are you actually a.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: Woman or are you actually a man?
[00:20:53] Speaker C: Yeah, you are.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: You're choosing to go by these pronouns.
[00:20:56] Speaker C: So I'll oblige right now and go by those pronouns.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: But we have had conversations around gender and sexuality, so they know they understand.
[00:21:08] Speaker C: What I think of gender and sexuality.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: And they understand that I view them as their biological gender.
[00:21:18] Speaker C: So there's not deception going on, but rather there's building a bridge to talk.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: With them about deeper issues. Because the people who are at that, at least the ones that I've related.
[00:21:33] Speaker C: With, who are at this place, they don't even know what they want to.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: Do with Jesus at this point.
[00:21:40] Speaker C: And so as I am talking with someone and relating with them, I want to enter their life, and I want to enter their story and understand the.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Struggle and the pain that has gone through.
[00:21:55] Speaker C: Because, just for the record, someone dealing with gender dysphoria has had incredible, incredible.
Maybe one of two things.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: Maybe both, maybe more than this.
[00:22:09] Speaker C: But there's either pain, a lot of.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Pain in their life, or just tremendous confusion. And that pain can come through sexual molestation.
[00:22:18] Speaker C: That pain can come through comments, verbal molestation, verbal abuse. I don't know if molestation, for some reason that, in my mind, I think.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Very sexual with that.
[00:22:31] Speaker C: So a verbal just kind of entourage abuse, pain is inflicted that way.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: There's a lot of confusion sometimes because of what was done to them, or even just the experience they're feeling within themselves or the things they hear. Most of the people who I've interacted with, who are wrestling through this have.
[00:22:52] Speaker C: Grown up or have some sort of.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Knowledge experience with church, and so they hear about men and women from the pulpit.
I'm not sure that we're always aware of how culturally we define men and women's roles and what a man is and what a woman is and so forth. And not only that, I'm not sure we're aware of how often we stereotype.
[00:23:17] Speaker C: It's okay that we have stereotypes. There are reasons there are stereotypes, but.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: Sometimes we talk as though it's a universal truth of all men and forget that this is a stereotype. So there may be 20% of men.
[00:23:31] Speaker C: Or women out there where this is not true of them, and they're still very much man or woman or whatever, whichever gender we're talking about.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: And so that creates confusion in someone's experience. And so I want to enter their life, their story, and understand what's at.
[00:23:52] Speaker C: The heart of their struggle.
I don't see it worth having the.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Argument around pronouns right now, because if we have an argument there, they're already.
[00:24:04] Speaker C: Choosing to identify the way that they are. Again, there are contexts in which I.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: Would say, no, I think it's okay.
[00:24:14] Speaker C: To just hold firm and be, hey, this is what pronouns we're going to.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: Refer to you as.
But when it comes to peer to peer relationships, when it comes to adults who, this has not come about rapidly.
[00:24:31] Speaker C: But.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: The people who I've talked with, it's six to ten year struggle that they've been processing through, trying to identify.
[00:24:41] Speaker C: I didn't necessarily know seven years ago.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Or five years ago that they were.
[00:24:46] Speaker C: Sorting through this, but now I do.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Now I realize, oh, this was something that was going on inside.
[00:24:52] Speaker C: And so I want to understand their.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Story, where they're coming from. And as we talk and as we.
[00:24:58] Speaker C: Interact, I will talk with them about sexual immorality. Right.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: I will talk with them about truth and honesty and integrity and living with integrity.
[00:25:12] Speaker C: I have, this isn't just theory for me.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: I have done this. This isn't a pontification around certain topics.
[00:25:23] Speaker C: Which, to be entirely forthright, it feels.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: Like to people who are dogmatic around.
[00:25:30] Speaker C: This, it can feel sometimes like, my question is, do you have relationships with.
[00:25:35] Speaker B: People who are going through this experience?
I don't say that because I think.
[00:25:42] Speaker C: That if you did, then you would.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: See everything just like me.
[00:25:44] Speaker C: No more.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: I say that because I think you'd.
[00:25:48] Speaker C: Have a better handle of what the issue actually is.
The fundamental matter of the created dichotomy.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: Of the sexes that activists are seeking to blur, and sadly, that many christians are also helping to blur. I'm not entirely sure what that means.
[00:26:09] Speaker C: What that refers to.
And it signals to me that this.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: Person, this individual, has been engaging this.
[00:26:19] Speaker C: Conversation more through the third party of.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: Talk show hosts, commentators, social or political.
[00:26:28] Speaker C: Commentators, and not through the matter of firsthand accounts and relationships.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: A couple of years ago, the Matt Walsh documentary thing around what is a.
[00:26:42] Speaker C: Woman came out, and it's like, apparently there are camps and there are worlds.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Where these extreme views of, like, I don't know, what is a woman? It's kind of whatever you want to call it.
[00:26:57] Speaker C: I acknowledge that is an extreme progressive. There are groups like that, right?
But most of the people, at least.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Most of the ones that I've engaged.
[00:27:09] Speaker C: With and interacted with, they're not confused.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: Around what is a woman and what is a man. They're just confused around what they are.
[00:27:18] Speaker C: Because the way we talk about what a woman is, what a man is, and some of the underlying narratives around gender don't align with their human experience.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: And so I think it behooves us.
[00:27:33] Speaker C: To really simplify our definition of gender, even to the point of being very.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Careful around the stereotypes that we project on people.
[00:27:48] Speaker C: I do think a lot of, at least christians, who develop a form of gender dysphoria, a lot of it happens.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Because of the stereotypes that we have around gender roles. And men are supposed to go out and conquer and be aggressive.
[00:28:05] Speaker C: What about the guy? That. That's not natural. They don't even desire to do that.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: That actually feels overwhelming and depressing to try to gumption up that kind of personality. The way we can talk sometimes is.
[00:28:21] Speaker C: As though they're failing in their God.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Given masculinity and their identity, unless they gear up and have this sort of aggressive nature.
[00:28:31] Speaker C: No wonder people develop depression. No wonder people develop mental illness, right? Because of the people who I know.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: Of who are still in the church.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: Following Christ, yet dealing with gender identity, sexual orientation struggles, some of them are.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: Like, the most committed, trying to follow.
[00:28:56] Speaker C: God, of the people that I know. And so that can be really psychologically wearing.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: I just want to clarify something because.
[00:29:03] Speaker C: I think it came through funny.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: Of the people I know who are.
[00:29:07] Speaker C: Dealing with gender dysphoria at this juncture in life, they are not walking with Jesus. So I don't personally know anybody that I'm aware of who is dealing with gender dysphoria, yet wanting, outright wanting to.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: Follow Christ, which is what I was referring to, are people dealing with sexual orientation that conflicts.
[00:29:35] Speaker C: So same sex attraction or not?
Just slipped my mind. Like, when you're attracted to either side to either sex, I forget the term for it.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: So going back to the.
[00:29:53] Speaker C: Obviously, I'm one person.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: We're talking literally about.
[00:30:01] Speaker C: I don't know, 20 people, maybe.
This is a small niche group of people.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: So there's many different experiences out there.
[00:30:13] Speaker C: Than what I have.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: So I understand that there's a variety of experiences out there. And I also understand that there are.
[00:30:21] Speaker C: People teaching things that are extreme, that.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Are preying on the vulnerable, who are actually experiencing the dysphoria, the discrepancy within.
And so I think sometimes.
[00:30:39] Speaker C: Our passion is actually against the people who are.
[00:30:46] Speaker B: Teaching something that is false. And we get worked up over that and we forget that caught in the.
[00:30:52] Speaker C: Middle of all that is a group of people, people actually going through human experience.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: And my concern is, wait a second.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: Are we combating a false teaching with a proper teaching embodied with the way Jesus related with people.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: As opposed to.
[00:31:17] Speaker C: Just engaging in a war of words and ideology? Because first of all, you're not going.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: To convince anybody of the other ideology.
Obviously, there again, I'm speaking in general generalities, like, yeah, there will be one or two obscure people. It's like, oh yeah, you really got me. And I changed most arguments. You're not convincing anybody to change their mind, and you're going to end up running over the people who are actually dealing with these things firsthand. And so this is where that comes from. I believe the fact that we don't hear about, at least in the corner of the church that I circle in most frequently, the fact that we don't hear about people dealing with gender dysphoria until they're out is a sign that something has to change around the way we talk and engage this issue.
Because the church ought to be a place where people can wrestle through these things without feeling like their existence is about to be condemned and that they are about to be held at arm's length and alienated because of the questions they're sorting through and the things they're biting through.
Anyways, I don't know if that brings clarity or maybe it just makes people more disappointed, but I wanted to share this and hope that it can help close.
