Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hey friends. Welcome back. Tofa Christianity, where we seek to reconcile our human experiences with God and his word. So we can love from a pure heart, a good conscience and sincere faith. This week's episode is a little bit different. Uh, couple months ago I had a friend friend of mine from here in LA, who is also starting a podcast. And he asked if he could interview me for his podcast. He he's had it for several years, but it was on a, a hiatus and now he's starting it back up again. And so he wondered if he could interview me. And so after doing the interview, I asked him, Hey, could I share this episode on my podcast? I have heard other podcasters do that. Sometimes they'll get interviewed somewhere else. And then, then you share the episode. Then they would share the episode on their platform.
Speaker 0 00:00:50 And it's always interesting cuz you hear a little bit different perspective of the podcast host. And so I just thought, well, maybe this would be a good way to, uh, give in a window into, into my life. I invite all of you to, to listen. If you wanna support this work, the best way to support unpinned Christianity is to become a member and you can access expanded versions of the podcast. Episodes, deep dive essays. This episode is long, but I'm not limiting it to members. Oh, I'm gonna just publish the whole thing particularly because Kendrick published the whole thing on his platform. And so it's, it's his work, his, his interview. And so this will be a way of kind of giving an insight, look into my story. And then also promoting Kendrick Byler and his podcast, let it shine. He enjoys just finding friends of his people that he knows and interviewing them about their life story and their testimony.
Speaker 0 00:01:54 So that's what this is. I hope it's meaningful. Hope you enjoy it. If you have any questions I'd, I'd love to interact with you. You can message me or, or reach out to me some way on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. However, also if you're on iTunes, be sure and rate and leave a review of unpaid Christianity would love to hear how it's impacting you, whether it's positive or negative. I, I just enjoy it kind of gives a guide. How, if, if things have been meaningful connecting with you or if you'd prefer a change in something, feel free to share it without any further ado. Here's my being interviewed by Kendrick Byler
Speaker 2 00:03:00 Good day and welcome back everybody to another episode of let it shine. It's been a long, long time since I have recorded an episode and have had the pleasure to record an episode. And a lot has happened in my life since the last episode. Um, almost a year ago, maybe in a future episode, I'll, I'll be able to share that. Um, but for today, uh, I have a, another guest on the, the podcast here and somebody who is very special. And I say that about all my guests, but I, I truly mean it about all my guests too, in, in different ways. Um, today we have Asher Whitmer on the podcast first off, Asher. Welcome. Um, thank you so much for taking time to sit down outta your day, your busy day, um, to drive down here to my house first off, and then to sit down and, and talk and have a conversation here. So yeah. Welcome. What would you like to say to the podcast? People?
Speaker 0 00:03:57 Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good. Good to be here. It, I, um, is this your first interview since, since
Speaker 2 00:04:05 I'm out out here? Yeah. Okay. Okay. No, this is the first one I had plans of, of like really, um, doing more and like having other people on and it's just, yeah, just too busy and haven't gotten around to it.
Speaker 0 00:04:16 Oh, no worries. This, this is good. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 00:04:19 Yeah, absolutely. So for those of you who don't know, uh, Asher lives in the sunny state of California, uh, where I'm currently residing and uh, we attend the same church LA road and yeah. Uh, I first met Asher obviously when I first moved out here in may of 2021. Um, and yeah, have really appreciated hearing Asher share whether it be a message or just in conversation, whatever it may be. Um, and yeah, uh, also Asher while before we get started here, um, you also have a, a podcast of your own go ahead and shout it out so that people can go, go find you where to find that. And I guess give a little bit of a synopsis as to what your podcast is about and what it contains.
Speaker 0 00:05:06 Yeah. Yeah, no, my podcast is, is called unpaying Christianity. It's just, uh, we just have raw conversations about Christianity, uh, reconciling human experiences with God in his words. So we can love from a pure heart, good conscience and sincere faith. But yeah, we're not, I mean, we don't have near the technology. I don't have the technology that you have here, so I'll, I'll be learning a few things here, so it's good to
Speaker 2 00:05:34 Nice, nice. Very well. All right. Um, so yeah, Asher, why don't you give us a little bit of a background of before? So I, yeah, obviously I, I don't know too much about you. Um, I, I have, I will admit I have, uh, in the, in the Mennonite world, you seem to be kind of popular more or less, believe it or not back home. I've I've heard a lot about you. Um, and then coming out here and meeting you all. Good things. Thank you. Um, so tell us a little bit about yourself before you, you lived in California, your family was from Minnesota, is that correct?
Speaker 0 00:06:11 Yeah, so I grew up, I was, um, 17, I think when we moved out. So I, the first 17 years of my life from 1991 to 2008, lived in Northern Minnesota and my dad, my dad was ordained as a pastor the year I was born. And I, I always forget if it was the fall before I was born or the fall after I was born, but basically all my life, my dad has been involved in church leadership of some kind. Um, and so church has definitely been a, a big part of life. And in 2008, we moved out to California to plant a church mm-hmm <affirmative> in Anabaptist church in the inner city and there's back. Like dad had been taking some trips out here. He had, he had been out here, I think like three or four different times before 2008. And so that vision, it was just kind of slowly growing.
Speaker 0 00:07:10 And, and so we moved out and I was 17. And when I was 20, I went to Institute for global opportunities, IGO mm-hmm <affirmative> in Thailand. That's where I met Theresa, my wife. And we were, uh, one of those couples that you go to Bible Bible school and come back and get married. So <laugh>, and, uh, let's see, that was 2011 in 2012, we got married and, and we've been married now almost 10 years. We have four kids and we've, since in our marriage, we have spent three years in Thailand. We went back to Thailand a couple years after getting married and in 2017, moved back here and have been here for the last five, almost five years now. Nice. Um, yeah, so yeah, I mean, one, one of the big pieces that has kind of shaped our marriage is that just a few days before our wedding, my mom was killed in a car wreck.
Speaker 0 00:08:14 And so that, that has kind of been kind of reshaped our family. And even, even the ministry here, you could say it was still fairly young at the time. And, um, so there's, there's marriage together and there's many things that have that we have experienced that cause grief. And so we learn how to process grief, but from its beginning, we've been walking together and learning how to process grief and stuff. And I don't know if that, uh, seems like I, I can go almost anywhere and people are like, yeah, I remember watching the live stream of your wedding. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> so if that's like, what has given some of the popularity being, being, having a funeral one day in your wedding the next day or what, but, uh, it's not, it has not been an easy journey, but it's been, God has been good through it and it's been really good to have therea to walk it with.
Speaker 2 00:09:18 Mm mm-hmm <affirmative> absolutely. Wow. Yeah. There's, there's a, a small glimpse of just, yeah. Some of your story and the things that God has done in your life. Um, so tell me a little bit more, like growing up before you moved out to LA, what was life like? Like if you think of when somebody says, like, what was your childhood like? Like what do you think of what comes to your mind?
Speaker 0 00:09:40 Yeah, that's a good question. I, I'm not sure when the last time was, I was asked that <laugh> <laugh> um, what was my childhood like? Well, I grew up, uh, I guess I'll just say, I don't know if this is good or bad, I'll just say like, what comes to my mind first? I was the bad kid and I, I said earlier that my dad was a pastor all my growing up years. So, so yeah, there's a lot of pressure that I soon began to feel, um, because of, because of how naughty I was <laugh> right.
Speaker 2 00:10:16 Sure.
Speaker 0 00:10:17 And not, I don't recall that pressure necessarily coming from my parents, but I do remember people making comments, um, you know, but yeah, I was, I was, I was not a, a good kid. Uh, what, what does that mean? I guess, you know, we talk with youth out here and it's like, you know, they look at all of us, no matter what we did in our youth. And they're like, oh, you know, you weren't smoking weed at six years old or something, but, right, right. Yeah. Um, I, I just had an intense anger problem for one thing. And, you know, even, even if we were at church, like, it, it, you know, if something ticked me off, like it would, I, I could explode right there, um, in the, if we're outside playing football together or something. And, and so that was kind of the, I, I think the big thing that kind of went before me, as far as other people in the church, like everybody knew, knew that. And, um, so that was, that was something, uh, when, when you, when you first asked me, like, what was my childhood, like the immediate thing that came to mind was pressure. And I, I don't know, like, I'm not sure that I've ever really thought about that before, but yeah, just the, the, the pressure of not being a very good model all the time, I guess. And, and, uh, yeah, I don't, um, other things about childhood I homeschooled. Nice. So I was one of those. Did you homeschool?
Speaker 2 00:11:53 Yeah. Yeah, my whole, my whole, uh, I tell people my whole school career, whatever that means, but yeah, my, my, basically all my schooling is homeschool.
Speaker 0 00:12:00 Yeah. Yeah. So I, yeah, all 12 grades were homeschool. We, uh, did, I think kind of the classic homeschooling approach, there's kind of a smattering of things for like the first six to eight years, and then finally settle on something for the last four years maybe. And <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:12:17 Sounds about, right.
Speaker 0 00:12:18 Um, so like my high school, we did the, the Becca video mm-hmm <affirmative> program. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but there again, I, I hated school. I did not, I do a lot of writing now, but I, I, I hated English. I hated, I was speaking of anger and stuff. Like, I, I used to get really angry during school. Uh, just didn't make sense. It was confusing. I remember fighting with my older sister cuz she, I don't know if she had graduated. I forget. Um, she's five years older than me. So 18, 13. I would've been 13 when she graduated. So even, cause I think I was like 11 and 12. She would be helping me with English. She really enjoyed English and I did not enjoy English. There were five of us kids. So, you know, mom took any help that she could. And I just remember one time getting really upset at my sister C about English. Like it was nothing she had done wrong. Right. Um, so the fact that I'm now in Bible college as an adult and I write a lot, uh, I think, I think my mom is, is probably, has probably already rolled over in her grave and <laugh> looking down from heaven is just like, wow, like God does do miracles.
Speaker 2 00:13:34 So like as far as schooling goes, were you like a, did you do well in school when you actually applied yourself? And did you just get frustrated because like you didn't wanna apply, apply it yourself or did you just like, it did not make sense at all?
Speaker 0 00:13:47 Yeah, that, that's a good question cuz actually in like, even whether at IGO or, or my Bible college now I tend to, I tend to do well mm-hmm <affirmative> and my classmates are like, wow, like you do good, but I don't think of myself as doing well. Right. And I think some of that is we, we were given a good education. I don't know. Did you do beca mm-hmm at all? Yeah. Like that's, you know, it really prepares you for writing essays or doing research projects or something. Whereas some, some people, depending on what their schooling was like aren't as prepped for that. And so it's, you know, or even just learning how to think critically, um, especially the video school, like you you're reading pieces of literature and analyzing it and stuff. And some of that kind of shows up in, in post, uh, grade school, high school work.
Speaker 0 00:14:40 But in the moment I felt like I had siblings who, who could barely work and they would do well. And I felt like I had, like, I didn't reading was hard for me. Um, I'm I'm still a slow reader. I, I read a lot today. I do, I do a lot of audio book as well. Oh, nice. Nice. So <laugh>, especially when you combine, like if you're reading a book and listening to a thing, you, you know, get through it a little faster, but yeah. Um, but reading was really slow for me during school. So that was part of why I, I would get frustrated. There was, there's definitely a lack of applying. Like, um, my parents didn't really buy or they didn't really buy into or believe in <laugh> like, I don't know how they'd say it. The whole D H D thing. Oh yeah.
Speaker 0 00:15:36 But I, I have in my adult life, like I, there, there are aspects of add that I, I do, uh, what's the word, like if I read about symptoms of add or whatever, it's like, oh, like, I, I kind of identify with that. Yeah. Right. Sure. Um, so maybe that was some of it too, like just mm-hmm <affirmative> um, not being able to focus well for a long period of time. Right, right. But there, you know, there's so many other better things to do in life. Like go, go play sports and yeah, exactly. Go snowmobile. And I, um, one time we were going through Minnesota history cuz you have to have, it was like seven or eighth grade. You have to have a year of state history, history, history. Yep. And it was just a boring black and white pace curriculum. So I think you went through like four paces throughout the year or something.
Speaker 0 00:16:29 And it was so boring compared to everything, whether it was Bob Jones or Becker or whatev, whatever it was, that was all colorful and yeah. You know, fun. This, this was black and white, the pictures were stenciled drawn and just, I, you know, I didn't even feel like reading and I knew where the answer key was. Oh no. And uh, and so I went and got the answer key. We had a toy room that was back, oh, this is speaking of childhood. I grew up our family. My dad was a construction worker. He was also a pastor. He owned a construction company. And then we also had a senior home for elderly people who were not bad enough for a nursing home, but they needed assistance Uhhuh mm-hmm <affirmative>. So in our house they lived up on the main floor. There was no upstairs. Sure.
Speaker 0 00:17:21 Um, and then we, as a family lived in the basement. Nice. Okay. And so we did school and everything down in the basement and, and in the back of the hallway was this toy room. I took the answer key and my history and filled out all the answers and then put the answer key back. I have no clue what mom was doing that day or like how I could get away with it, but I was done and then I could go snowmobile. It was like the dead of winter. And I went out and I snowed, but I remember feeling pretty sick <laugh> as I like it just wasn't that fun snow. Right. Uh, I, I remember confessing later it's I can't remember if it was within, you know, that school year yet or if it was like another year later mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. I don't know if that kinda gives you a, a glimpse into the chaos. That was my childhood.
Speaker 2 00:18:17 Yeah. No, it does definitely. Um, sounds, sounds pretty normal, I think for the most part. Um, yeah. So like outside of school, though, as far as like the community there in Minnesota, you lived, you lived in tell me about, you know, did you have like a lot of friends? What was the church like there growing up? Um, how did that affect, I guess who you are today?
Speaker 0 00:18:37 Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question too. I, um, grew up Northern Minnesota was actually interestingly years ago and I don't have the dates on this at all, but so I would've grown up nineties early two thousands, I think, as early as the fifties, but maybe not that early, maybe it was more like seventies. There were some missions started in Northern Minnesota. There were five young men that were like 19 and 20 years old and they were newlyweds and they, they went up through Northern Minnesota, into Ontario and started various missions and churches mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so in our immediate community, there were four that would've been started from those missions if I'm remembering correctly and they didn't all, so like just a, the church building that I grew up in that most of my childhood memories would be from the church. It was called Christian life chapel, and the church building that it was in one of those early mission churches built that church. Gotcha. And would've there would've been started there, but that church had died. Like there was years
Speaker 2 00:19:55 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:19:56 Spanning between when that church was actually functioning to when we, when our church actually started. Right. But our church was a, a Mennonite conservative, an Baptist church. And then there were three others all within about a half hour of each other. Okay. Um, that would've been MI or started as mission churches to the communities there. And obviously, I don't know if you're familiar with Northern Minnesota, Ontario much, but there's a lot of Indian reservations and stuff, native American people through there. And so I think a lot of the missions were started for those people groups, but the particular churches that these four that I'm talking about by the time I was growing up, uh, there, there, yeah, it would've been all largely transplant. I think even anti Baptist who moved from maybe Pennsylvania or Wisconsin, right. Anywhere between Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. <laugh> yeah, sure. Uh, up to there.
Speaker 0 00:21:00 So, so our, our, uh, immediate church community would have been, um, we would've done a lot with those churches. Mm. Yeah. Actually, I mean, kind of just some backstory when my dad was ordained, when I was born, it would've been a part of, one of those, one of the other churches mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>. And at the time of my birth, I think only three, three churches were, were active then, uh, I think I was like six or seven and there, we went through a church, fairly big church split. And, uh, from there dad ended up pastoring, one of the, one of the splits mm-hmm <affirmative> he had been pastoring, he stepped down that ended up creating a split. And then, uh, he, it was started another one that was more in town, international falls, Minnesota. Gotcha. Anybody who goes up to like, uh, beaver lake camper?
Speaker 0 00:21:59 Oh yeah. Up, up through there usually goes through international falls. Nice. So that, you know, that dynamic created while we did a lot of stuff with those other churches, there was a lot of pain. Yeah. Right. Uh, from, from people and the parents. And I actually remember about the time we moved out here to California, my generation was starting to do a lot more together. We would do youth activit, whether it's just like getting together, playing hockey or volleyball or something to having youth camps and, uh, youth retreats and stuff that, that, um, that we'd all hang out together at. Uh, and they've had, they've actually had youth retreats since like 40 years ago, or so maybe 50 years is 20, 22 now. But I don't remember the churches sending as many youth as they were the year, like the couple years leading up to us, moving out mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 00:23:01 And so when we moved out, it felt like there was a large community of youth. Now I'm talking to somebody from Holmes county, so a half hour distance, even like there, there, there were three other churches, two hours away. So we would all do stuff together. Wow. But we're talking like drive in two hours to, to hang out. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, that was kind of big in, in my youth, I guess you could say, uh, those connections, but even so, um, like obviously compared to Holmes county, we're driving two hours, half an hour to connect with another, an Baptist church. My family did quite a bit. Our church, our church was anti Baptist, but it was actually non-denominational okay. But it was, you know, everybody was from anti Baptist background. Right. And would've still had the strong FLA, you know, anti Baptist values mm-hmm <affirmative> and belief in practice.
Speaker 0 00:24:03 But our church did quite a bit with other people, other churches, right. In the community. Other, just other people in the community too. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, from age nine, I think I was, I played little league baseball in our town international falls. Oh, nice. And through age 12, and then they called, I thought I was done. And then the high school called and wondered if I'd wanna play for, for high school. Oh wow. And ended up playing so two years of junior varsity, and then two years of actual varsity before we moved out. Um, so that, that gave me a, a completely other world outside of the, an Baptist world kind of experience as well in my youth. And so as far as being shaped, um, that, that, I think that's definitely had some significant impact.
Speaker 2 00:24:59 Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So you'd say like, as far as friends-wise, you'd, friends-wise, uh, you'd have, like, you would've had other friends that weren't necessarily a part of the Anne Baptist church there in Northern Minnesota or where most of your friends would've been from the churches there.
Speaker 0 00:25:16 Yeah. No, most of my friends would've been from the churches as far as ones we ones I
Speaker 0 00:25:25 Got close to and like told, told things, but yeah, I had a lot of friends from my, from my various ball teams that I played on. Sure. Um, that, and like my parents, when, uh, we moved in 2008, so I, somewhere between 2005 and 2008, they, they started doing quite a bit of marriage counseling. Okay. And I think I should ask my dad about this, but I think there were like 30 different couples. Oh, wow. Just from town that they, that they, um, counseled in, you know, a span of years there mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, and, and those would've all largely been, Well, I don't know. Yeah. A lot of 'em would've not been from the Mennonite churches necessarily. Sure, sure. Um, so yeah, I, you know, I think as far as, um, The close friendships and, you know, sharing Meaningful experiences with, or, you know, deep things on our hearts, my friends would've largely come from the churches there mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> but there were there, I, I actually still keep up with a couple of my friends from the ball teams as well. Oh, nice.
Speaker 2 00:26:44 So that's really cool.
Speaker 0 00:26:45 Yeah. Yeah. There's one guy. I thought I was pretty sure he was gonna go to the major leagues, but really he's not there. I, I think he played in the minors. Oh, wow. I could be wrong, but
Speaker 2 00:26:55 Oh, that's really cool. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:26:56 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:26:57 That's, that's very interesting to hear because like, obviously, like you mentioned, me being from Holmes county is like completely different. Like I basically know no life other than the, the Anna Baptist.
Speaker 0 00:27:09 Okay.
Speaker 2 00:27:09 World, I guess. I mean, there's obviously people that aren't Mennonite in Holmes county. Yeah. But like, it's really hard to go out, go to town or whatever, and not see somebody that, you know, that like goes to a neighbor church or your own church. Yeah. And so, yeah, hearing, like, obviously you had anti Baptist churches in Minnesota, but like feels like a lot, obviously a lot less than what, what was in Holmes county. Um,
Speaker 0 00:27:33 Yeah. I mean, we, so the nearest Walmart was in Bemidji, Minnesota, and there's another couple, an Baptist churches down there. And so if we're down there and you're in Walmart and somebody comes in wearing a head cover, like a lady comes in wearing a head covering a dress, you know, though
Speaker 2 00:27:51 <laugh> yeah. Right. For
Speaker 0 00:27:51 Sure. And so when I went out to Lancaster or homes county for the first time and you go into Walmart or some store and there's like, wow, like, do I know you <laugh>?
Speaker 2 00:28:00 Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:28:00 Yeah, no. And then my friends are like, stop being worried <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:28:06 Oh, wow. Yeah. That's, that's crazy. I've, I've always wondered what it would be like, like, I don't know, growing up in, in a less populated Mennonite community, how that would've shaped my life differently, I guess. Um, so it's very interesting to hear. And then obviously like now you're out here and it it's more or less the same thing. I mean, probably even less Mennonite people here in LA or in a Baptist people here in LA, um, than obviously what is in Minnesota mm-hmm <affirmative> so I guess for the most part you don't really know any different, um, I'm sure, like going over to IGO, you, you got to experience a little bit of that, that type of just like AAP culture bubble, I guess is maybe a word for it. Um,
Speaker 0 00:28:48 Yeah. Yeah. That's probably the, the closest that I've gotten to it. I spent, um, two, uh, two terms. So what there's six weeks. So 12 weeks at SBI Sharon by one and two. Um, that was, that was my first exposure to Lancaster mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and so that was, you know, you kind of get to know more people, Mennonite people there and the different stripes and, you know, like yeah. That, that all fascinates me because there, you know, there's so many different kinds. Yeah. Um, and then the next year, I think it was, went to IGO as a student and then three years later moved back and taught at a, um, school there for, for different missionary children. So even though my students weren't necessarily a part of IGO or from Mennonite missions where we went to church and a lot of the community that we did things with, would've been a part of, of, uh, Mennonite, you know, a part of IGO. Right. Sure. And so that was the closest, probably to kind of that AAPTs bubble that mm-hmm <affirmative> that I feel, but yeah, it is, it is something that every now and then I'll I'll talk or, you know, go what we thought about this last summer. We took a big trip back east and connected with a lot of friends and it was really good to see people that we hadn't seen in a couple years. But you do realize that it's like, man, the world's just so different from, you know, our friends in Ohio or
Speaker 2 00:30:26 Right. Or
Speaker 0 00:30:27 Indiana or Pennsylvania. Right. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So,
Speaker 2 00:30:32 Wow. Yeah. So that, I think that, that gives us a little bit of a glimpse, like you were saying into kind of your childhood growing up. Are there any like specific moments or happenings that jump out at you? Um, when you think of, of the younger years or anything traumatic that may, may have happened or something that was like very exciting or good that happened, I guess, to you any, any specific memories that, that jump out?
Speaker 0 00:30:57 Yeah. Oh, there, yeah. There's like three that started coming to mind is this is good. I, I haven't like sat down and thought about my childhood so much for a while. So it's, um, interesting. They have this conversation. There's one is, um, it, it popped up in, in our family chat group. I forget who shared it or what it was, but it was an accident that I had had snowboarding and face planted. And I just remember, I think I was 11 years old. If, if I remember there's no date on the picture and stuff, but if I remember correctly, I would've been 11 and my face swelled up, like it was smack. I remember it was a, it was probably March. So the end of the season kind of icy mm-hmm <affirmative> oh, like at night there was, it was night skiing, night skiing up there.
Speaker 0 00:31:53 I was snowboarding, but so it was icy. And just remember coming down, I was almost down at the bottom of the hill. There was a whole bunch of us doing, doing the run together. And I just remember looking up at everybody. And the next thing I knew I was rolling and seeing stars. I was just like, wow. You know, that had never happened to me before, but it swelled up my face. My whole face that night, my nose bleeding, my, my jaw really hurt. We had two hours home from there. I remember they, the medics came out and took me in. I went in on the snowmobile, they didn't put me on the sled or anything. I just wrote in with them and examined me. And so we, we went home, they gave me, you know, some bandages or GZE for the scrapes and stuff.
Speaker 0 00:32:44 They could tell that my seemed like my spine was okay, but my jaw had incredible pain, just super sharp pain. And we drove two hours home to where we lived. And I remember, I can't remember. Yeah. When, if we prayed down at the, the ski resort or if it was at home, but I just remember we prayed about it. And then the plan was, if it's still hurting so bad the next day they're, we're gonna go in and, and get it looked at, seemed like it was a looked at it mm-hmm <affirmative> seemed like it was just, yeah. Right. Right here for those who can't see, I'm just kind of the middle of my jaw. Like I just remember distinctly both sides. It just hurt like crazy. And I remember the next day waking up and there was no pain, absolutely no pain. And within a, a day, day and a half, the swelling all went down.
Speaker 0 00:33:37 And aside from the fact that like, my lips still had the, where it got busted a little bit. Yeah. Still had the scar, like you wouldn't have known I had an accident. Wow. And it was kind of my first encounter to what I feel like, like I had kind of forgotten about that until it popped up in our family chat. I was like, wow, like that. I remember thinking that must have been a miracle mm-hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative> of the pain that I was in the night before to what I was feeling the next day. So that was definitely, yeah. Kind of interesting for me. I also, you know, I discussed earlier that I was the bad kid and I remember there's, there's a good friend, family, friends of ours who lived up in Ontario and the, the wife was a child psychologist. And, and I remember mom and dad taking me up there to meet with her mm-hmm <affirmative> I was really young.
Speaker 0 00:34:34 I don't know how old I would've been. I was old enough to know that it had to do with me, like, because of my issues, you know, I mean, right. But I was young enough that it was like, oh, you know, this is fun. Like we went to a, a house and that had, I just remember it had a bunch of like, um, animal skins and, and antlers and stuff all around mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I was like looking at all them, playing with them. And, and I remember she had me drawing a picture as I talked. I have absolutely no clue what she asked me. <laugh> I, I cannot remember what she asked me or what we were talking about or whatever, but I do remember that I drew a picture of a church and then she asked me at one point, and I don't know this because of my memory.
Speaker 0 00:35:27 I know this because she told, she told me later, told my parents then. Um, but apparently she asked me what I would do if the church burned down. And my response was that I would build another one. Hmm. And so I like I've as I grow up and become an adult, like church is, um, really important to me, right. This just the church, the body of Christ. And I've often thought back on that, I was like, huh. You know, obviously my dad was a pastor. I was just in that world. But I think it's, you know, there was something there that God was, um, yeah. I don't know if it's so much God calling me too, or just, um, you know, a vision or burden for church, cuz I, I would not have, I would not look at that being on any kind of journey with God, with Jesus at that point in my life, I was, I was young, but something about that has definitely kind of synthesizes the burden that I have that I care about the church mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and then probably the third one would, would just be that.
Speaker 0 00:36:46 Yeah, I was 12 years old when I was baptized, when I did meet Jesus and um, I was a bad kid and I, I, I tell, you know, we talk with some of the youth here today. I was just talking with, uh, Ferman about it, who recently got baptized and, and he was talking about how he's, you know, not,
Speaker 0 00:37:08 He just realized he's never gonna quite be perfect. So yeah, now's the time to just get baptized. And I, I told him that like, Hey, I feel like I've done most of my sinning after I was baptized 12 years old is pretty young. If you think about it, mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, but I can definitely point a trajectory. Like the trajectory of my life changed at 12 years old, right. From not caring at all to, to caring mm-hmm <affirmative> to wanting to follow God mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so even, even when you're struggling with sins, struggling with stuff that all youth do, um, that that's, that's normal. Like that's, that's a part of learning how to follow Jesus. And so even, even if you're baptized and you're struggling with some of these things, it doesn't mean you're not real or that you're not right. You're not sincerely wanting to follow Jesus. So yeah. Those are the three things that popped into my mind right off hand. When you talked about that, as far as, I guess you could say highs or mm-hmm <affirmative> um,
Speaker 2 00:38:19 Just moments that stick out. Yeah, yeah. No, that, that totally makes sense. So yeah, that's, there's a little bit of your glimpse into your childhood. What about like your, your teenage years? Like even, um, like moving out here or like, even before that, like what was that, or I guess more specifically moving out here, how did that affect you? Like moving from obviously moving from a place like Minnesota, um, to the big city of LA is obviously a big change in, in transition. Uh, did, do you look back at that and see that as a, as it affecting your life? Or I guess how did, how did you handle that?
Speaker 0 00:38:57 Yeah, that's an interesting question, cuz I actually hated moving out here. Yeah. Um, as I said earlier, I was 17 at the time and it felt like my stage of the youth community was, was kind of coming into their own and there I had some good friends, there were like five of us that would, that would hang out often again, we lived, you know, two, an hour to two hours away. So it's not like we, it was every weakness. So, but we, we were, we were getting really close and even, you know, as 16, 17 year olds sharing, you know, extremely vulnerably with each other about the, the struggles that we had, mm-hmm, <affirmative> the, you know, things that, that were facing in life and so forth. And, and so I really struggled, like it, it tore me apart to leave that mm-hmm <affirmative> and I, I kept up with those friends for a while, you know, thankfully by 2008 we had good old Facebook and uh, chat, Yahoo chat. That, that used to be a thing I don't know. Did, did you ever do that?
Speaker 2 00:40:13 I was way too young for that. No.
Speaker 0 00:40:15 Um, so yeah, we kept up with that way and actually a couple of the, a couple of my good friends actually were out with choice books. Okay. Some of our earliest VSRs, um, which you are now, uh, that's why that's what brings you out here for mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so, uh, what was your question? The
Speaker 2 00:40:39 Basically, yeah,
Speaker 0 00:40:40 That, yeah. How did it impact, right, right, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so I Fe yeah, I really struggled to, and I'm, I'm not sure what my, the rest of my siblings would say if other people, I don't like my two older siblings were pretty much adults at that point. So it wasn't as big of a deal for them. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that our family moved cuz they were probably leaving home anyways. Right. And they, they went on and, and did they both went through college and uh, Bible Bible school and have moved like they're, they're no longer living here in Los Angeles. Um, but my younger siblings, I'm not sure if, if they struggled more or less than me, but I, I just remember going through a period of intense loneliness and really struggling mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, with, I was just telling my wife the other day, this is really dark, but I remember having, so I did choice books as well.
Speaker 0 00:41:44 Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I can remember get up early morning and, and there's, you know, maybe nobody quite on the streets yet or something or just even, just, even if you're driving around sometime. Um, I used to enjoy going out to Malibu at like midnight, 11 o'clock at night. I don't know if you've done that at all, but it's like the whole city shut, you know, it's pretty much shut down then. Right. You can just fly out there along the 10. I just remember thinking like what if, what if you woke up one day and everybody was gone and you'd have all these streets, all this concrete, all these buildings and there's nobody there mm-hmm <affirmative> and I didn't think about it at the time, but like talking about that with my wife, I'm like, that is really dark mm-hmm <affirmative> <laugh> it just kind of shows the, the level of maybe some depression that I was in just like feeling really lonely.
Speaker 0 00:42:38 Um, for the first couple of years we were the only ones out here. Yeah. And maybe like a year or two in, we started getting choice books, SERS. Okay. And then a couple yeah, three, I think it was three years in Sam's moved out mm-hmm <affirmative> Jared and Carmen stalls fees who are no longer here in LA, but they were the first family to join. And by then also we had gotten to know other people just in LA making other, other friends and stuff. So, so yeah, that, that was as far as just kinda that, how it impacted me, it was, it was definitely a lonely season of life, but I also look back on it now and I, I don't at all regret the move mm-hmm <affirmative> um, the way it's broadened my worldview, uh, the people that I've gotten to know here in LA and know today. Yeah. Uh, you know, I've, I've grown to dev develop some fairly close friends that I would've never had if, if we had not moved out here
Speaker 2 00:43:44 Mm-hmm
Speaker 0 00:43:44 <affirmative> um, so yeah. It's, even though it was a, a super hard thing, like for my youth, it was really hard. It was probably one of the single most life shaping events of my youth. Like if you, if you think 14 to 20 or whatever.
Speaker 2 00:44:06 Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and that age, like 17 is, that's a very first word that pops into my head is scary. And I don't know why I thought it was scary, but it's like a very, um, important age. Like there's yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously your, your whole youth is, is important to shaping your life, but it's, it is, is very important. Yeah. Like 16, when I think about myself, like 16 to 18, somewhere in there, just kind of where it shaped a lot of yeah. A lot of my life. So I'm sure. Yeah. Definitely was not easy leaving all your friends that you had in Minnesota and then just moving out here. And I mean, LA is kind of more or less known, not even like for the Anna Baptists, but just people in general as like a very lonely city. Like it's hard to really connect with people. Um, or at least that's what I've, I've heard and read and, and listened about, I guess. Um, but yeah, I can't imagine. So you, you guys moved out here in, you said 2008 mm-hmm <affirmative> and what year, and what year did your mom pass away?
Speaker 0 00:45:03 It was 2012, 2012. Okay. So, so we moved out in April of oh eight and then it was November of 2012,
Speaker 2 00:45:10 November of two 12. Okay. Yeah. Wow. And I'm, I'm sure that was hard. Um, I feel correct me if I'm wrong or not, but I feel like that, like your mom's PA passing was obviously one of those moments. I kind of, I kind of view view, um, like there's these big happenings, I guess, or moments in everybody's life that really either shapes them or something that they really had to go through. And I'm, I'm assuming I'm like, I can only imagine I've, I've never lost anybody that close to me. Um, I can only imagine, like that had to be obviously extremely hard. Um, and probably one of those moments in your life that you look back on as like one of those big events, I guess, um, or happenings, uh, tell me, I guess a little bit more about that. Exactly. For those of, of, um, the, the listeners that didn't know your mom, uh, tell us, I guess, kind of what happened and yeah. Leading up to that. And then after that, how that made you feel and like how you even tried to process that. Like, I can't even imagine.
Speaker 0 00:46:11 Yeah. Yeah. So we were in, I was getting married to my wife, Theresa, who is from Colorado. And we had, I had gone out two weeks before and dad, mom came out a week before. So I think they got out like Saturday night and then we had Sunday together, Monday and then Tuesday, Tuesday morning, our wedding was on Saturday that Saturday, Tuesday morning. Uh, she was the people we were staying with. I don't know if anyone's familiar with new horizons in canyon city in Colorado, but that's the area where my in-laws are from. And the people we were staying with were outside of canyon city, a couple miles and mom and my two younger siblings, Christy and Christopher were coming in. The rest of us were in, well, my, my two older siblings weren't living with us anymore, so they hadn't flown in yet for the wedding.
Speaker 0 00:47:16 But I had gone out for breakfast with dad that morning. Mm. And so we were already in town, mom and Christie and Christopher were coming into town. Dad had just dropped me off at my in-laws and we, we were gonna work on wedding stuff and he was gonna go meet the rest of them at Walmart. And we got this text. I remember just kind of getting in the, the house and getting a text from my sister saying, pray for us. We were rear hit by a truck or like rear-ended by a truck. Cause it sounded, it sounded kind of small mm-hmm and, but the something about it just like really shook me. Um, I've, I've often wondered, like is weird because what she actually said, like, I don't know if it's happened to you out here, but it's not uncommon to <laugh> have vehicles hit you out here in LA, right?
Speaker 0 00:48:15 Yeah, exactly. And so it just kind of sounded like maybe something like that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> maybe the, the thing of pray for us. Like why, why would you have to pray mm-hmm <affirmative> you were hit by a truck, like mm-hmm <affirmative> did the bumper fall off? Like what? Um, but anyways, we, I was texting with her a little bit and I could tell after a couple minutes that she was not with it really? Mm. Like she was, she was kind of not delirious, but it just really scattered mm-hmm <affirmative> um, in, in what she was saying. And so I, uh, got there and we hopped in the car and ran over and got dad, actually it must have, it must have happened the opposite way. I dropped dad off at Walmart cuz we went over to Walmart, picked up dad and then ran out to where the scene was.
Speaker 0 00:49:02 And I don't remember how we knew where the scene was. Huh that's interest I'm yeah. I forget some of those details, like how we knew where it was, but we went out to the, the intersection where it happened and I just remember it coming up over the rise and it, you know, trying to figure out like what, you know, what's, what's going on. Like mm-hmm <affirmative> is this just kinda a bad rear end bad fender bender sort of thing. But already at that point, like there were a couple ambulances out. There was the, the fire department or some of it was out. Uh, there were just a lot, well, I don't remember what all was out. There were just a lot of flashing lights, a whole crowd of people already paramedics. And it was just like, whoa, this, this is way bigger than just being hit by a truck.
Speaker 0 00:49:51 Right. We're pulling up to the intersection. There's this old, I think it was a Dodge pickup truck, like really old, just smashed the whole front of it was smashed in. And I remember pulling up thinking cuz like canyon city and, and the outskirts are kind of, it's not uncommon to see a junk vehicle kind of sitting around. Right. And think like not thinking anything of it, but as we came to the intersection realizing, whoa, that's the truck that hit them. And then about a hundred yards out in the field was the van. Oh wow. Um, and so mom had mom had been in a rush. They were a little bit late and there was a intersection that was not a four-way stop. And she pulled out in front of the, the guy who was, who did end up being intoxicated. So he was going, I think it was a 35, 45 speed limit zone.
Speaker 0 00:50:47 Um, if I remember correctly, I think they figured he was probably going 65 or so. Wow. 65 or 70. And some of, some of those details are a little fuzzy for me. Sure. But right, right on mom's door, uh, maybe a little bit on the, on the passenger minivan door. Sorry, the, the one right behind the driver, but yeah, on the driver's side mm-hmm <affirmative> and um, it, whatever happened, like she hit the gas and it shot her out into the field until it just came to a stop I guess. And uh, so yeah, we, we got there and Creta was there by that point and kind of with Christie, Christie was kind of walking around. It's still like, not really with it. Christopher was on a stretcher with a, a neck brace. He actually looked the worst when we first got there kind of freak, like what in the world happened?
Speaker 0 00:51:50 He had been sitting right behind mom and had a, had a bruise or something on his head. And so that's why they stabilized his neck and everything mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and maybe <affirmative> and maybe I don't, I think he was pretty with it though. Mentally, uh, Christy seemed the most, uh, disoriented. And then mom was out, they had her also on a stretcher and she was not, her eyes were not open. Uh, she wasn't really doing anything. She was re she was responding. So if they would tell her to squeeze, squeeze their fingers or whatever, she would respond by squeezing mm-hmm <affirmative>, but she was not opening her eyes. She wasn't talking at all or, or really moving her limbs that much just kind of moaning a little bit. And I was immediately more preoccupied with Christy and Christopher dad went to be with mom and after a while they, uh, the helicopter came and they life flighted her out of the helicopter. And, Um, I remember kind of saying goodbye. I don't think I went up and, and
Speaker 0 00:53:07 Physically touched her or anything, but, uh, saw her, you know, the helicopter take off and go. And then we had sent Christie and Christopher off into they, they just went to the canyon city hospital. Mom was being life flighted to Colorado Springs and which was a 45 minute good 45 minute drive from, from the scene. So we sent Kaita and some, some of my in-laws went with Christine, Christopher into canyon city and dad and me and there. And my father-in-law went up to CA the Colorado city to find, uh, the hospital that mom was life flighted too. And we drove 45 minutes only to discover it was the wrong hospital. And so it was like another 20 minutes across town. And so about an hour, hour and a half later, we finally got there. I remember thinking on the way up, like, what's, you know, what's gonna happen.
Speaker 0 00:54:11 Is there, am I gonna be pushing mom down in a wheelchair? Like what, what does this mean? And we got to the hospital finally, after about an hour, hour and a half of you running around. And they, as soon as they heard who we were there for, they, they ushered us into the quiet room. And I didn't really think anything of it. I'm just, I'm just thinking of, you know, is mom okay? Like what's going on? And eventually the doctor came in with a chaplain and started, started giving the news that, uh, mom had actually Died right after they, they left the ground. Um, So then yes, within minutes seconds, her heart had stopped. And so they spent the nine, nine minute flight trying to start it. And, and obviously after they got to the hospital doing whatever they could, But she was gone. But at that point she had been dead for over an hour. And, uh, so yeah, we, we just, you know, started bawling there and, um, just like not, not at all, what you expect right of a week like that, and, or just like, pray for us. We were hit by a truck, um, went and looked at mom. She had all kinds of tubes coming out of her
Speaker 0 00:55:51 And was pretty cold already by that point. And so, yeah, it was, uh, just like, Excuse me, the rest of the week is pretty big blur. I, I remember we had just the night before we had gone over kind of the order of events with our coordinators and the pastor,
Speaker 0 00:56:19 Which is, you know, that was the grace of God that we were able to get that in, because I know there was still a lot of stuff to do, but theres, and I didn't do anything with the wedding after that. Um, yeah, her, her family obviously carried it the big chunk of the load and, um, and whoever else helped out coordinators or whatever. Uh, we, uh, we had the funeral on, well, yeah, I remember, I, I forget if it was that night, Tuesday night or if it was the next day, I think it was that night that Theresa came up and, and just said, like, I don't know what, what this means for us, but I, I, I still wanna go through with this. I still wanna get married, even if it means that we're living with your family for a little bit, um, or what, you know, and I wasn't, like I had the th the thought, the thought of not getting married, never crossed my mind.
Speaker 0 00:57:20 Right. True. And so obviously it felt good to, you know, be reassured that I've had a number of people ask me since that, like, wow, that's so, so amazing. Like what, what made you go through, go through that? Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, follow through on, on getting married and stuff. And my answer is just like, it, it never really crossed our minds to not do it. And, uh, and I think too, it's, you know, we're so in love by the time you're engaged and you're at the wedding week, you're, you know, emotionally you're practically married. Right. Right. And so just to con you know, just now we have the grief journey to walk together, like to, to kick the marriage can down the road. Would've just made it all the more worse I think, in, in drug out. Um, even though, even though it really impacted our marriage.
Speaker 0 00:58:19 And I didn't think about it until year after my brother had gotten married six weeks before me. And so a year after their marriage, their wedding, I remember they seeing pictures of, of, you know, the first few weeks of marriage and their honeymoon and everything, and just like the fun stuff that they did. And, and it was just like, they had a great time. It was, it was wonderful, like newlyweds have, and that's when it hit me. It was like, we don't have that. Like, we didn't, we didn't have any of that. We don't have pictures, like our, the pictures of us around that time. There's like, we're super tired in our eyes and, and just kinda look sad. And, um, and, and so then it, it really kind of, it was like a, a new grief process all over again. But I remember, yeah, we, uh, it was like, so we had the wedding, uh, Fri let's see, days get mixed up.
Speaker 0 00:59:20 I guess we had the funeral Friday, Friday morning. And then we had the wedding rehearsal that night mm-hmm <affirmative> and then the Fu uh, the wedding on Saturday. And I remember the, the, the rehearsal just feeling. So the, the funeral was like, we were all in tears again. It's grief going through grief. Oh, the night before Thursday night would've been the viewing. And so there, there were hundreds of people that came through the viewing and, and then again, hundreds of people at the funeral, and by the time I got to the rehearsal, I just remember feeling so angry. Like I was just inside <affirmative> inside just really angry. I didn't wanna be there. I didn't not, not that I didn't wanna get married. I just, I just wanted to be by myself. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and now I'm like the center Teresa and I are the center of this occasion. And, and yeah, just
Speaker 2 01:00:19 Who, who exactly were you angry at? Were you angry at, like, at God for allowing it to happen or more yeah. Like who exactly, or were you just like angry at yourself and just wanted to get away?
Speaker 0 01:00:30 Yeah, no, in the moment I, I, uh, I, there wasn't anybody that I was angry at. It was just, yeah, it was just general anger. It was just the, the emotion I think it, yeah, I think it was just kind of the natural flow of, of grief maybe. Um, there's yeah, maybe. Um, I I'm gonna come back to that in just a second, but the next day at the wedding was really fun. Like it was, it was the most joyful day of my year.
Speaker 2 01:01:04 Oh, wow.
Speaker 0 01:01:06 Genuinely it was, it was incredible. It was an incredible wedding experience. I think our wedding was the best wedding ever. <laugh> and I'm not, I'm not just saying that, uh, what's the word, like, um, flippantly or whatever, just like, that's the thing to say, but, but I do, like, we haven't watched our wedding video recently, but we did for a while. Like, we'd go back and watch the wedding video over again. We loved the music. The musicians did a great job. The, you know, everything, the people we had share at our wedding was just really good. And, um, yeah, it was a good joyful day and people often wonder like, how can you, how can you do that all at the same time? And, and I don't like, I, for one thing, like the human psyche is, is just pretty amazing. Obviously God has made us to feel all kinds of things, but it's kind of like eating an apple, maybe like you're, you're eating an apple.
Speaker 0 01:02:06 And what do you think about when you eat the apple? Do you think about the, the skin on the outside? Or do you think the inside, like the white fleshy part that like, you, you don't really think about it, right. You're just like eating the whole apple. Right. And it was kind of that, that way, like, yeah. There's intense grief and then incredible joy all at the same time. And yet you're able to feel them both distinctly. Mm. Um, so yeah, I think to the question of like being angry at God, I have, like, I went, so one of my wife really struggled in the months after that. I, I am a newly wed man wanting to sleep life away. Mm. At that point in, in my, for my job, I was doing pretty much all warehouse stuff with choice books. Gotcha. Okay. And so, you know, it's, um, I think at that point it opened at seven, it closed at like 8 45 still kinda what it is.
Speaker 0 01:03:12 That's still where it is. Yeah. Oh. You know, as long as the work gets done in that timeframe, I could work whenever <laugh>. Yeah. And, uh, and I, I just remember sleeping till 10, 10 30 some days. Wow. Just like super depressed. I didn't call it depressed really. Then I didn't, you know, I didn't really know that language, but, um, but you know, then I dragged myself out to go put in seven, eight hours. Um, thankfully, you know, has a newly married, couple Theresa could come, you know, the work was such that Theresa could come with me and, and work with me if she wanted to, she didn't all the time, but, um, but then I'd come back home and, and then we'd just like, you know, you know, if I'm working at, at 11, you know, I'm probably coming home at six 30 or seven and then, uh, eating together and, uh, very quickly heading the bed. Right. Not doing a whole lot, like maybe hanging out with friends every now and then, or, you know, maybe watching, watching a movie or something. But I just remember life was just extremely, I, I wanted, like, I literally just wanted to sleep life away. Sure, sure. And, but we're newly weeds and Theresa's want, you know, newly, newly weds should feel different things like we should be excited and mm-hmm, <affirmative> doing all kinds of things together.
Speaker 0 01:04:44 And so, so I think in the moment, I didn't know how to respond to, to her wrestling with that. I sort of responded by like, not showing grief to her. And then after a while she, you know, she wondered why I didn't cry with her. And so <laugh>, yeah. I was like going, trying to figure out how, you know, this, this whole process of doing life with, with another person and like sharing, being close to each other while also trying to give her, you know, realizing that like, I'm, I'm not very pleasant, uh, person or sold to like be around right now. Um, and so years, years later, the year later when I was looking at my brother's and his wife and their first year, you know, looking at the, looking back on their photos a year later and just realizing the excitement and the thrill that they had and stuff that's kinda of when it hit me, what Theresa was missing and what I was missing. Um, and so there was, there was some anger there that I remember dealing with again and just kind of grief.
Speaker 0 01:06:08 And I'm not sure, like, I think for myself, anger at God has always been more digging deep and discovering that that's what I actually am. Mm mm-hmm <affirmative> whereas I, I, would've never, like, I wasn't angry at God. Right. Like I, I knew in my mind that like broken things happen, you know, this is there's brokenness in the world and there's, you know, um, if anything, mys some of my siblings were like asking some more, like really gut wrenching questions about God and like, you know, where is he and all this. And I, I wasn't really asking that. I just wanted to sleep life away. That was kind of my approach, I guess. Yeah, sure. But in, in actually, like even years later, because I, we got married within a month, we were pregnant and within three months, four months we were asked to move to Thailand.
Speaker 0 01:07:04 Oh, wow. And a year later, well, a year and a half later from being asked, we did move. Hmm, no. Yeah. About a year later, a little over year later. So like within two years, there's just like one thing right after another, that is more emotionally involving almost like you're, you're prepping for a baby. You're learning how to do life together as a married couple. You're thinking about whether or not you wanna move. Right. And then you do move and you're relocating. And so it was, I remember I, I was teaching in Thailand and so I remember it was the first break from school after the first year I, we were committed pretty much three years. So we knew what we were doing for three years. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it was that first break where all of a sudden there wasn't something to that that I should be thinking about next or like processing next mm-hmm <affirmative> that a whole bunch of emotions like came back to the surface for me.
Speaker 0 01:07:58 And I've discovered that's kind of the case. And it was actually in that summer that I got the idea to start writing my book. And I've noticed that I tend to do that when I get, when I start feeling really uncomfortable emotions, I come up with really great ideas of things to do <laugh>. And so it's actually in the, you know, in the last 10 years, it's had to be an intentional work at times to just kind of dig in and uncover grief. And then in that process, like discovering, there is actually some, some anger at God. Mm. Um, because life was so different than for somebody else or, um, and just kind of naming it, kind of acknowledging that. Right. That, but it's not like I was in, I I've never like struggled with is God real. Right. Sure. Um,
Speaker 2 01:08:50 Well, yeah, first off, thanks for, for sharing that, that was very powerful. Just listening. Um, just, I I'm, I'm sure you felt like during the, the whole funeral and the wedding process, I'm sure there was, there was moments where you felt God's presence. Um, just looking back and, and seeing, cuz I feel like I don't know about yourself, but I feel like if it, if it would be me, like there's no way you could almost do it on your own strength of, of getting through the funeral and then of getting married, like the, the two polar opposites one is like a very, very sad event and one is supposed to be a very, very happy event. Yeah. Um, so like,
Speaker 0 01:09:29 Yeah, we had so many people praying for us over that time and right. Yeah. Most definitely the, the grace of God.
Speaker 2 01:09:35 Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. So like if, if somebody would come up to, you say a nonbeliever would come up to you and, and you would've told them just what you told me, um, and they would ask you the question, like, why did God allow that to happen? Like what would you tell them? Hmm.
Speaker 0 01:09:55 You know? Um, yeah. As, as I think, uh, you might observe in some of my, like whenever I give a message or something like the, the thing that's really a passion of mine is the story of God mm-hmm <affirmative> and the, and the whole narrative. And I think a lot of that comes back to my own processing. Like where does this fit into God? Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative> and into what he's doing. I, I would not have to been able to tell you the story of God, like what, what is the overarching message of the Bible? Or, you know, what is God doing in, in life? Yeah. I wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have been able to tell you, you know, what that story is at the time, but I think it, it sent me on a perhaps somewhat subconscious journey and maybe even almost as much because of some of the questions, my siblings, my younger siblings were wrestling with mm-hmm <affirmative> um, because I, you know, the, the paradigm of, well, I, I think a huge part of it was some, some of my best friends had, had gone through, so this was 2012, like six years before that had lost their mom.
Speaker 0 01:11:08 Mm. Um, so, so it wasn't a new, a new journey, uh, but still like that would've been true for my siblings as well. Um, we were good family friends with them and, and they lost their mom, but I did learn a lot from, from watching them grapple with, you know, where is God in this? And, um, the story of job, you know, realizing that there, there is space within God's sovereignty to allow extremely tragic things to happen in life mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it doesn't mean that he's just completely outta control. Um, but this subconscious journey of what is the story of God, which is something that I just kind of started looking for and eventually led to, to me, uh, going to Bible college at eternity Bible college, where like their main thrust is biblical theology and discovering the story of God, as opposed to like, system, uh, systematic theology.
Speaker 0 01:12:15 Right. Um, but that's been the, the number one thing to me in my Bible college experience is realizing the beautiful thing that first of all, God intended, and then, you know, then discovering like what happened, what's wrong in the world. And, and now what God is doing to restore it. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative> and see how he is restoring it and kind of coinciding studying through the Bible. I I'm taking church history classes as well and stuff, and, and as well as just kind of general history and seeing movements of history and, and how the church has been advancing, or like what growing even, and, and what God is doing in the world through the church, through his people, um, kind of all helps solidify that, first of all, God is real and God is active in this life. And that his story is real mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 01:13:19 And if his story is real, then these calamities, these painful events in life are the result of the, you know, it's, I don't really know why God allowed this. Like, I, I could rationalize, like he wants a personal relationship with us. And so, right, right. We have to choose him in order to do that or whatever like that. But the Bible doesn't necessarily say that inherently mm-hmm <affirmative>, but the story begins that man is given this option of, am I gonna trust that what God calls good is good or what God calls evil is evil, or am I gonna go my own way and decide for myself what is good and evil? And when they choose to go their own way, then we see all these calamities begin to happen. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and then the story of God, as it continues, this cosmic, not only does everybody struggle with this cosmic struggle of, am I gonna do Le trust God, or am I gonna do my own thing?
Speaker 0 01:14:22 But also as these calamities happen, that are the results of other people. Like, I didn't, I, I have rebelled against God in my life, but I'm not the one who like, nothing direct about my rebellion at the time. I, I, I was a Christian I'm walking with God, nothing about me led to a drunk man hitting my mom. Right, right. But that's, that's his own choice. That's the there's calamities that's happening outside of my control because humanity is now choosing to do what's right in their own eyes. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And now I have a, a response in that calamity, am I gonna trust that God is good and that his way is good. Or am I gonna try to make, make my way through that on my own deem, doing what I deem is. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and good.
Speaker 2 01:15:15 Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 01:15:16 And so, so yeah, I guess I, I would just, I mean, that, that is what I tell people is, is just like there's of all the narratives in the world. There's nothing that explains why these bad things happen as clearly as a biblical narrative. And there's also no narrative that, that gives so much hope for what God is, is doing in the process. Mm-hmm <affirmative> or like just the weird thing that like, oh, a tragedy, like that could actually make you into a better person like that. That's kind of weird, isn't it?
Speaker 2 01:15:48 Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly.
Speaker 0 01:15:49 I wouldn't create a story like that, but that is what God does through, through the work of his spirit. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so yeah. I don't know if that really answers your question. Exactly.
Speaker 2 01:15:58 Yeah, no, no, it definitely does. Um, yeah. As you were, as you're talking, I just kind of got the, the thought of like, no one, none of us would say that your mom passing away was a good thing. Like that would just be horrible to say that that's, that's so wrong. Um, that's obviously like a really horrible thing, but seeing that and knowing that God is good. And like, you were just like, you just got done saying by, by that happening, it allows us to, to draw closer to him because he gives us a choice to draw closer to him. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and I've experienced that in my own life. Like the, some of the, the not so good things that happened, like nothing to that extent, but some of the, not so good things that have happened in my life, um, have allowed me to draw closer and become more intimate with him in my relationship with him.
Speaker 2 01:16:56 Um, and like some of the times when it feels like nothing else is there, like, there's nobody else there. There's nothing else I can turn to, but God has allowed me to, um, yeah, like really just cling on to him and just like, give all my focus and all my attention to my relationship with him. And like, out of that can blossom, like you mentioned, like really good things and like a stronger relationship with him. Um, so yeah, no, I, I really, I really like the way that, that you put that. Um, and so, yeah, now, now you're here, um, living with your, your family and I guess what's life like today, like give me a little glimpse into your day to day life, um, with your family and, and what you do for a living or, or I guess since, since your mom's death, have, is there any, like how have you seen God working in your life? I guess?
Speaker 0 01:17:44 Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's, uh, with life, with life, with the family definitely has impacted me. And, uh, I think almost grows me. Like God works on me more through my kids and, and raising, raising kids and anything. Um, you know, it's, it's been really interesting trying to help my children know what grandma Whitmer was like. Mm. Um, cuz obviously they don't, they don't know her, they know her through pictures, but uh, there's, there's no nothing. We don't even really have much video. Like we, we weren't, we had a digital camera, but we didn't take much videos Mo mostly pictures. So they, you know, trying to help them understand what mom was like. And so, yeah, you know, my, my dad has, since he's been, uh, remarried about a year now, so now, um, they know his, his new wife better than, obviously, than, than my mom and, and they're, they will have a relationship with her more vivid than, than they ever have with mom.
Speaker 0 01:19:03 But it's been interesting. Like I think there were different comments and stuff that they made that kind of triggered me a little bit. I didn't expect them to make. And, and so it was kind of another process of grief for me. Sure. And it's been interesting observing them, like watch me go through that grief and then like recognizing, um, how yeah. Like even, even, uh, to see the, the way that my grief is impacting them and they, they respect that like they're of the age now where they can like recognize that and kind of, you know, understand a little bit, even though they don't know grandma Whitmer right. Uh, they, they understand that a little bit. And so that's been, that's been an interesting element to observe and I think the way that God has worked most significantly in my life as a, as a married man with children is just realizing what it's like to, to love your kids, you know, to love your, your wife and re recognizing that that's like, I, I do that very imperfectly and I'm still very selfish and yet that's a glimpse or a picture of God's love for me.
Speaker 0 01:20:37 And, and God's presence with me, like to see my kid go through grief or suffering, um, just tears at my heart mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so it gives me a picture into what God has probably felt for, for me. Right, right. In the, in the grief process. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, and I think that's definitely been a big, a big growing shaping thing as it concerns discovering more about God, but it, interestingly, a lot of, I have dealt with a lot of, um, what's the word for it? Uh, UN like under the surface anger. Mm. Since seems like there's a better psychological word for it, but I can't think of it. Um, since having kids, for some reason, it didn't really come out until my kids started getting to the age where they could disobey. Mm. And then like, I don't, I don't, uh, it, it, it led me on this journey of like processing what's wrong with me because I'm not, I love my kids.
Speaker 0 01:21:48 Right. I'm not angry at my kids. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But the, the fact that I would tell them to do something and they just ignore that has brought up anger, just like in a moment that has made me realize it it's actually like, so obviously that started, you know, whenever Ken was two he's eight, so like six years ago, six or seven years ago that that started surfacing. And so it kinda led into a journey of that's actually part of what led me to realize. There's a lot of stuff that I probably haven't processed, even from whether from mom's death, where there's even been some things in life and that Theresa and I have gone through that, that are similar, not, not like a death experience, but it impacts you emotionally. And you don't realize always that it has impacted you until it snaps out in some anger or something. Sure. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I think that's the thing. Yeah. Like God is using, using my kids to show me a lot of himself. And then also like confront things, work on me. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and things in my own life.
Speaker 2 01:22:59 Yeah. Wow. Wow. Very well said. Yeah. Well, um, as we, as we wrap it up, I, I pre-warned you beforehand that I was gonna ask you this question, cuz I, I think if I'm not mistaken, I've asked like everybody I've had on this podcast, this question, and I love like all the different answers I've gotten. Um, a lot of really good sound advice has, has come through, um, this, this answer to this question and the question is this, um, like if you could, first off, if you could tell your, your younger self something and then kind of along with that, if you could tell the INAP slash general youth of, of the world something today, like what, what advice would you give them or, or what would you tell them?
Speaker 0 01:23:43 Yeah. So I guess if, if I, if I would tell my younger self something, maybe, maybe I'll do like, <laugh>, this is like not necessarily a spiritual answer or whatever, but it's, it's something that I would, I think about a lot. And that is how, and this is, this might be, I don't know if you've got this answer before. Cause it seems like maybe what everybody would give at a graduation convocation or something, but what you like, what you're doing right now is sewing something that will bear fruit later. Mm mm-hmm <affirmative> I did. I, I heard that many, many times as youth, but I didn't realize how real that is. Mm. Like what you do right now. So that's anything whether, whether it's how you're handling your finances right now, mm-hmm, <affirmative> whether that's the types of friendships you're creating, whether that's how much time you're spending in God's word or, or developing spiritual disciplines or whether that's, uh, you know, if you think of a, a craft that you have, or, or an interest that you have.
Speaker 0 01:24:56 Um, but it takes some work. And so it's easy to, you know, just go hang out with your friends or spend time watching movies or something, as opposed to putting in the work, you enjoy that craft. You it's kind of passionate, but it's, it also takes some work. And so it's easy to just kinda let it slide. Well, when you put in the work, if, if you want to ever have the dream realized, or if you ever want the skill set that you, you would like to have one day, you gotta put in the work now, like what you sew now mm-hmm <affirmative> you will re later mm-hmm <affirmative>. And just that concept. I, I, I don't think I'm sure people have heard that many different times, but for myself as a younger self, just to say, even what you eat now is gonna affect your energy level and like your, your, your, the way your joints and everything feels even as, so if you're 14, 15 now, like you'll, you'll think I'm totally making up stories, but it's real, like, it'll affect how you feel as a 25 old, right. The kinds of stuff you put into your body. And it's stuff that I'm trying to learn now, like just realizing, wow. Like I can feel totally different. I'm 31. That's not actually that old, but it's old enough to feel like I can go one day and feel like lately my, um, well the, just on Sunday we celebrated my birthday. It just made the delicious chocolate cake <laugh> oh, I love chocolate cake. Gotta have chocolate cake with milk.
Speaker 2 01:26:33 Right.
Speaker 0 01:26:34 But man, if you have a slice of that every day, like it affects how I feel. Yeah. By the end of the week. And so just that concept, like what you're doing now is going to reap something later. Um, so that's what I would tell my younger self. And then as far as just general youth and Baptist youth or youth in general, um, I would just, I think I would say, get to know the story of God
Speaker 0 01:26:59 And there's a lot of things like something that was not, did not exist when I was a youth that would've helped me see the story helps anybody see it now, but I would've, I would've been able to see it so much more than just reading my Bible. Uh, you know, the black and white words in my Bible is the, the Bible study tool, Bible Bible project is what it's called the, the charts and the, the short videos that they create help you get a glimpse of how each book fits into the overarching story. And then, and then you read through the book and you can see those movements that they talk about in their, in their videos and stuff. So, so get to know the story of God, one of the ways that can help you get to know that is through the Bible project.
Speaker 2 01:27:46 Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Very good answer. Well, on that note, I think we'll, we'll wrap this one up. Um, Ashley, thank you so much for coming out here and sharing wisdom and knowledge with all of us younger people. Um, yeah. I feel like we, we definitely have a lot to learn from not old people, but older dear people like you, um, who have experienced a lot in life and have learned a lot in life. And yeah. So thank you just for, for gifting us with your time and, and just sharing with us. Um, and for all you listeners out there, uh, thank you for, for listening and go as mentioned before, go, go, uh, check out Asher's podcast, untrained Christianity. You can find it. I'm sure. Spotify, apple podcast, basically wherever podcasts are. Yeah. Yeah. So go check it out. Very, very good, very good podcast. Uh, definitely. Won't be disappointed. Um, and yeah, thanks. Thanks for taking the time to listen and join us next time, whatever that is or whatever it may look like.
Speaker 0 01:29:25 UFA Christianity is brought to you by our members at Patreon as a part of the membership program. You receive two deep dive essays a month and expanded versions of all our podcast interviews. If you would like to become a member visit www.asherwhitmer.com/member unpaid Christianity podcast is also a part of two networks. The restorative faith collective, where we have conversations about race perspectives and relationships in an an Baptist context to learn about more articles and podcasts visit www dot restorative faith, collective.org. The second network is the kingdom outpost, where we talk about what it looks like to live as Jesus' nation in today's world for more podcasts and articles, visit kingdom outpost.org. Thanks for listening.
